PJB Baccs

[rooster63]

Is anybody else out there. I recently. Bought a PJB Baccs campervans conversion, based on a Citroen Realy. Loving our new home from home but except for the advert on Somerset Motorhomes where we bought the van and a reviews on Out and About Live from 2007 there is no other 'hits' on Google. Just wondered if there are any other owners out there and how they have got on with the van. As it would be good to share experience of minor glitches.

[rooster63]

Well it looks like my van is unique, or at least to readers of this forum as I haven't had any replies. Van currently laid up in garage as it looks like when the converters worked on the van they put the wrong size alloys on. The holes on the wheel don't quite line up with the hub so the bolts go in at an angle which means they strip the thread when you try to remove them. Currently in discussion with motor home dealer under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 to see if they are liable as the van was sold to me with a faulty condition.

[hallii]

Re: the wheels issue, it is a dangerous fault, if there is any delaying tactics from the dealer go to the CAB or if you have legal cover start the legal proceedings.

 

Faults like yours can and do result in wheels coming off at speed or even wheel failure due to cracking.

 

H

[Mick Bajcar]

If it was sold in a dangerous condition......

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/75

 

It is a Police matter and quite a serious offence. Of course, you want it put right but before you speak to the dealer, be sure of what the legislation means as the threat of action may well help you to get it remedied

 

Mick Bajcar

[Keithl]

Hi Rooster,

 

So sorry to hear of your troubles.

 

I'm assuming it is this MH... http://www.somersetmotorhomecentre.co.uk/used-motorhome-citroen-motorhome-856

 

If so are the wheels even load rated for the MH? Many aftermarket wheels are not intended for the weight that most MH's run at.

 

Keith.

 

PS And I see it is a 'Bacca' and not a 'Baccs'.

 

PPS But Which MH refer to it as a 'Bacc's' so even more confusing!

[Derek Uzzell]

The 2007 “Which Motorcaravan” review can be found here

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/reviews/motorhomes/details/pjb-motorhomes-baccs-2007-motorhome-review/898623

 

and there’s reference to the “Bacca” in this 2007 Caravan Club document

 

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/caravanclubapps/media/17655/NEWS%20NEC%20Show%20April%2007.pdf

 

that also includes contact details for the converter. The website (www.pjbmotorhomes.co.uk) is ‘dead’ and it appears that the company “PJB Motorhomes Conversions Ltd” was dissolved in February 2014.

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/L-60659-1921314

 

However, the telephone number in the Caravan Club article links to the business shown here

 

http://www.pjbbodyshop.co.uk/book-mot-service-repair.php

 

Prior to the “Bacca” there was the “Marni”, based on an LDV Maxus.

 

https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/general/more-marni-for-your-money

 

The family involved in producing these motorhomes was called “Bacciochi”, which might well explain the origin of the “Bacca” name.

 

The photo in the 2007 Which Motorcaravan review suggests that the alloy wheels fitted to the Bacca sold by Somerset Motorhome Centre are the original ones, and it’s quite likely that this vehicle is the Show model and a one-off.

 

Its MOT history can be viewed by entering BF07RWW and Citroen here

 

https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

For info, PJB Motorhomes Conversions Ltd was dissolved in 2014.

 

I assume the alloys were not original fit, presumably fitted by a/the previous owner. Good job you spotted the problem, as the consequences could have been very nasty.

 

You, or the garage, need also to check the tyres, as well as the wheels, to ensure that the correct tyres are also fitted. They should also check the condition of the hubs to verify whether fitting the wheel bolts has damaged the threads in these, meaning that new bolts cannot simply be substituted and properly torqued.

 

Those wheels look a bit like the relatively cheap sets of wheels and tyres that can be bought for cars. If the wheels are inadequate it is quite possible the tyres will also be inadequate.

 

Once you have exposed the scale of the problem, go back to the dealer to see what they say. They may offer to replace wheels, and if necessary the tyres (They may choose to take up the matter of the dangerous wheels with the previous owner, but must attend to the problem for you in the meantime).

 

If they are uncooperative, then go to Trading Standards or Citizen's Advice for guidance on how to proceed. Whoever fitted those wheels must be a prize idiot!

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2016-11-16 6:44 PM

 

...I assume the alloys were not original fit, presumably fitted by a/the previous owner...

 

 

As I suggested above, there’s a strong likelihood that the alloy wheels currently on the “Bacca” were fitted at the conversion stage.

 

The MOT-test history is worth looking at (which is why I provided the link) as there’s an advisory notice relating to the test carried out on 12 May 2014 that says

 

“...all four tyres cracking up on outer walls”

 

and another advisory notice for the 14 May 2015 test saying

 

"Wheel/tyre protruding beyond wheel arch”

 

The attached photo copied from the Somerset Motorhome Centre’s advert certainly gives the impression that the wheels protrude well out within the wheel-arches, suggesting either that the offset is wrong or that the wheels are unusually wide.

 

The mileage recorded at the Bacca’s recent MOT-test (11 November 2016) was 27302, with the vehicle having covered 5734 miles since the 2015 test. Given the current low mileage, there’s a good chance it’s on its original tyres which (if that were the case) would now be over 9 years old (the vehicle’s date of first use is 4 May 2007).

 

For what it’s worth, the ‘bolt pattern’ of a OE Ducato 15” wheel seems to be fairly uncommon

 

http://www.wheel-size.com/pcd/5x118/

 

but (as you rightly observe) it should have been obvious to whoever fitted the wheels in the first place (or since) that the wheel-bolts were not locating correctly.

[david lloyd]

rooster63 - 2016-11-16 2:25 PM

 

Well it looks like my van is unique, or at least to readers of this forum as I haven't had any replies. Van currently laid up in garage as it looks like when the converters worked on the van they put the wrong size alloys on. The holes on the wheel don't quite line up with the hub so the bolts go in at an angle which means they strip the thread when you try to remove them. Currently in discussion with motor home dealer under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 to see if they are liable as the van was sold to me with a faulty condition.

 

Looks like you may have found the reason why there are not many replies to your original post rooster63, and possibly the reason why the conversion company are no longer trading.

 

I can only sympathise with you when, after having bought your dream vehicle in good faith, you then find that it has serious, dangerous faults and agree with the advice given above that you need now to be reassured by the supplying dealer that all the issues relating to the fitting of these incorrect wheels are dealt with.

 

This is the worst possible start for you with your purchase and I hope it is rectified properly and quickly and that you can then start to enjoy your van.

 

David

 

[Len Salisbury]

Check that the spare wheel safety conversion has been done on a RE-CALL/ It is free.

[Derek Uzzell]

History of the company PJB Motorhomes Conversions Ltd can be viewed here

 

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05684457/filing-history?page=2

 

The company was incorporated in January 2006, but a decision was made in December 2009 to voluntarily wind up the company and a liquidator was appointed then.

 

Why this company failed is anybody’s guess, but the photos of the “Bacca” don’t suggest that the conversion itself was sub-standard. The WM review quotes a ‘from £34999’ price for a Bacca - not a bargain-basement price at that time - which might have put off buyers. Certainly, there seem to be no on-line pointers to the existence of another Bacca.

 

It might be worth rooster63 trying to contact the vehicle’s last owner about the wheels. Also (besides the spare-wheel-mechanism safety recall) it would be worth checking whether the vehicle is carrying a spare-wheel and, if so, whether or not it matches the four alloy wheels and has a matching tyre.

[QFour]

Many years ago our next door neighbour used to make trailers for people using old rear axles and other bits. He sold a builder one and one of the wheels came off. The Police got involved as there had been an accident and he was prosecuted and fined. Turn out that he didn't have any wheels that would fit the hubs so he found something near. Elongated the holes and used Nylock Nuts to hold the wheels on.

 

The OP could get it fixed by fitting new wheels and tyres and getting the threads checked by a reputable garage. Then just give the bill to the Dealer. If he refuses to pay take it to the small claims court. Just sending the paperwork usually makes them see sense.

 

If the OP does not want to go down that route then he has the option to take it back and try to get his money back which could take a long while or get them to fix it.

 

Last option is a set of steel wheels off ebay for about £500

 

Hope you get a resolution to your problem. Don't let them wriggle out of their responsibilities.

 

As for PJB https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05684457/filing-history?page=2

 

It seems from looking at the above site they have been involved with a number of different businesses all starting with PJB apart from Warwickshire Motorhomes. All but one now gone. Have a look at the people tab. It's the last guy who still seems to be trading.

 

..

[Derek Uzzell]

QFour - 2016-11-17 2:55 PM

 

...Last option is a set of steel wheels off ebay for about £500...

 

 

Assuming that the tyres on the Bacca are a standard size (215/70 or 225/70) for a Ducato 15”-diameter wheel and in a state that makes it sensible to transfer them, a set of four steel wheels should be much less than £500. In fact, it should be practicable to obtain four suitable new alloy wheels from a reputable firm for less than that.

 

When I wanted a spare-wheel for my 2015 Ducato-based Rapido I was able to source a genuine Fiat 15” steel wheel for about £50 including carriage. The seller was importing these wheels from Germany where they had been removed from brand-new motorhomes to be replaced by alloy wheels. It was plain that ‘my’ wheel had had a tyre on it and a balance-weight was still there, but otherwise it was in as-new condition. The Fiat list-price was over £100.

 

While I would agree with the views above that the dealership needs to take responsibility for offering this vehicle for sale with wheels that don’t fit properly (though there’s no particular reason to believe the dealership was aware of this), I don’t see why the dealership should be expected to provide new tyres. Even if the tyres on the Bacca are the originals and nine years old and have external ’cracking’, the motorhome has recently passed an MOT-test where the tyres would have been examined and (apparently) not found to be faulty.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-11-17 7:38 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2016-11-16 6:44 PM

 

...I assume the alloys were not original fit, presumably fitted by a/the previous owner...

 

 

As I suggested above, there’s a strong likelihood that the alloy wheels currently on the “Bacca” were fitted at the conversion stage.................................

I replied to Keith's post, and didn't see yours at the time, despite the 30 odd minutes delay in the time of my post. Strange!

 

However, it does, indeed, appear that the alloys were those fitted originally. I'm amazed that mangling on as described hasn't resulted in failure by now. I'm also somewhat amazed that no-one appears to have had the wheels off and noticed the fault before now. A look at the service record might be instructive. I would have expected the wheels to have been removed at some time over the years.

 

I'm puzzled by those MoT advisories. In sequence, it seems clear the exhaust rubbers were dealt with before the next test. But then a number of items appear once, including the cracking on tyres, which I would expect to point to the problem having been rectified before the next test. Either that, or the van has visited different test stations each time, all of which must have had somewhat lax testers if they didn't check the previous advisories to see if they were still present, or rectified. As the tyres weren't mentioned again, I would assume they must have been replaced. Ditto the protruding wheels. It seems odd that both advisories disappeared as though rectified, yet the garage now finds the wheel bolts misaligned. Surely someone must have noted the problem before?

 

Far to good a conversion to let a duff set of wheels spoil. Bit rough on the dealer who sold it; I can't imagine any dealer taking wheels off the see if the bolts fit properly! Very bad luck for all concerned.

[Derek Uzzell]

The Which Motorcaravan review mentions alloy wheels being part of the standard equipment of a Bacca. I’ve fiddled about with the photo in the WM review and there’s little doubt that the Bacca’s wheels shown in that photo and the wheels on the Bacca sold by Somerset Motorhome Centre are identical in design.

 

I notice that the Bacca was MOT-tested on 11 November and rooster63 posted about the wheel-related issue on 16 November. The 11 November MOT entry makes no mention of poor-fitting wheels (why should it?) but I assume the problem was identified around that time, perhaps when the vehicle was being serviced.

 

I also note that rooster63 bought the Bacca a couple of months ago and that it has no spare-wheel

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Puncturesafe/44410/

 

It’s peculiar that (apparently) the alloy wheels are sufficiently close to fitting properly that the five wheel-bolts can be screwed into the hubs despite the bolts entering at an angle. (Presumably all four wheels show the same fault?) After-market alloy wheels suitable for Boxer/Ducato/Relay motorhomes would have been readily available in 2007, and I would have thought it would not be practicable for wheels not designed to go on those models’ hubs to be fitted to them.

 

Rooster63 has not said whether the vending dealership has acknowledged that the wheel-bolt issue makes the wheels (and the vehicle as a whole) unsafe. If the dealership accepts that the vehicle was sold in an unsafe state it will be their responsibility to agree a solution with rooster63. If the dealership does not accept the the wheel-bolt ‘angling’ makes the vehicle unsafe, things will get tricky and (as Brian has said) advice from Trading Standards or Citizen’s Advice should be sought.

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2016-11-17 7:13 PM I replied to Keith's post, and didn't see [Derek's] at the time, despite the 30 odd minutes delay in the time of my post. Strange!

The recorded time is whn the post is submitted, so you were probably busy typing yours when the other one went up.

 

  .....I'm also somewhat amazed that no-one appears to have had the wheels off and noticed the fault before now. ...... I'm puzzled by those MoT advisories. In sequence, it seems clear the exhaust rubbers were dealt with before the next test. But then a number of items appear once, including the cracking on tyres, which I would expect to point to the problem having been rectified before the next test. Either that, or the van has visited different test stations each time, all of which must have had somewhat lax testers if they didn't check the previous advisories to see if they were still present, or rectified. ...... Surely someone must have noted the problem before?

 

I don't think removing wheels is part of the MOT test.  And MOT testing is a subjective process of judgement so there will be differences in outcome.

 

Far to good a conversion to let a duff set of wheels spoil. Bit rough on the dealer who sold it; I can't imagine any dealer taking wheels off the see if the bolts fit properly! Very bad luck for all concerned.

 

I agree that the important thing now is to fix this problem in order to make the vehicle safe and then enjoy what might otherwise be an excellent MH.  But a dealer is a professional and if he sold a faulty vehicle, unknowingly or not, he has an obligation to put it right when it is discovered.  Hopefully that's what he will be happy to do.

 

Simply getting the problem fixed and then presenting the dealer with the bill is not a good idea and could compromise the OP's entitlements.  Unless it's within 30 days of purchase, when the OP could reject the vehicle without allowing repair and get a full refund, I think the dealer is entitled to an opportunity to fix it.

 

[John52]

Not the only one to be caught out by the 15" and 16" wheels having different hubs. I had the wrong wheel carrier fitted at a Citroen Main Dealer

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2016-11-17 7:13 PM

the cracking on tyres, which I would expect to point to the problem having been rectified before the next test.

Not necessarily as it depends on the opinion of the tester. I had perished tyres as an advisory on my car 3 years ago. But the same tyres passed the next 2 tests without comment.

[Derek Uzzell]

John52 - 2016-11-18 10:43 AM

 

Not the only one to be caught out by the 15" and 16" wheels having different hubs. I had the wrong wheel carrier fitted at a Citroen Main Dealer

 

The difference between the hubs fitted to X250 Boxers/Ducatos/Relays with 15” or 16” wheels is most unlikely to be relevant to this Bacca motorhome.

 

15”-diameter wheels were fitted to ‘light’ X250 vehicles and 16”-diameter wheels were fitted to “Maxi” vehicles, but the wheels were not interchangeable because the hubs themselves (and the wheel bolts) were quite different.

 

The 15” wheels have a 5 x 118 PCD (Pitch Circle Diameter) and a centre-bore of 71.1mm, whereas the 16” wheels have a 5 x 130 PCD and a centre-bore of 78.1mm. In principle it would be possible to place the 16” wheel on the hub designed to take the 15” wheel (because the 16” wheel’s centre-bore is big enough) but not vice versa. However, it’s the difference in PCD that’s the show-stopper and, even if one chose to use the smaller gauge wheel-bolts appropriate for the 15” wheels/hubs, there’s no way that a 16”-diameter wheel suitable for an X250 Citroen Relay “Maxi” could be mounted on the hub of an X250 Citroen Relay ‘light’. Trying to mount the 15” wheel on a “Maxi” hub won’t work as the PCD, centre-bore and wheel-bolt sizes will all be wrong and obviously so.

 

What SEEMS to be the case here is that the alloy wheels fitted to the Bacca (and they look like 15”-diameter wheels to me) are almost right - they can be mounted on the hubs and their wheel-bolt holes are near enough to a 5 x 118 PCD for the bolts to go through the holes and into the hubs. Also, as alloy wheels are significantly thicker than steel wheels at the points where the bolts pass through them, if standard-length bolts have been used it does make one wonder how far the bolts go into the hub.

[Derek Uzzell]

StuartO - 2016-11-18 9:17 AM

Brian Kirby - 2016-11-17 7:13 PM I replied to Keith's post, and didn't see [Derek's] at the time, despite the 30 odd minutes delay in the time of my post. Strange!

The recorded time is whn the post is submitted, so you were probably busy typing yours when the other one went up.

 

Yes, but I’ve got ‘administrator’ privileges, so I can edit my own (and other people’s ;-) ) postings whenever I like with no time-barrier. In principle, then I could have posted something pretty skimpy (or even an empty posting) at 8:42 AM and then edited it and bulked it up later. Doing this leaves no footprints and the original time of posting doesn’t change. Having said that, I don’t think I did that in this instance.

[rooster63]

My local garage have fitted a new set of steel wheels sourced from Citroen and luckily the tyres (which according to the date mark are only 2 years old, so not the originals. They also had to replace a rear wheel drive flange and front wheel drive flange + bearings as they had been damaged by the fixings. The bill came to an eye watering £1330!. Have been in contact with the dealer and initially been sympathetic but due to the delay in the owner getting back to me the garage had replaced the wheels (they came quicker than anticipated) The dealer wasn't too happy with that as they said they could have supplied a set of wheels from their workshop but asked me to provide further details and they would see what they could do. Wrote to them last Friday enclosing an invoice plus details so am waiting for a reply. Just hope I've not messed up any claim by not giving chance for the dealer to correct the work themselves. I have dangled the carrot of saying that maybe in the future I might upgrade the van to something a bit more modern (ie AC, passenger air bags, LED lights) to go with the stick of the Consumer Rights Act. If they pay for the work plus the other parts I'll be happy with that and at least I know the van is safe, and the wheels don't stick out any more so hopefully will lessen the muck being sprayed up the side of the van.

Thanks for all your postings.

PS Have actually owned the van for a year now

[rooster63]

No spare wheel as cradle removed for water tank. Have got the 'gunge' repair kit, hope I never have to use it. The previous owner used to carry the spare wheel around loose in the back of the van. Dealer offered me that option but suggested the tyre repair kit would be better as no loose wheel to slide about and he thought changing a wheel of a 3500kg van is best left to breakdown folk.

[malc d]

rooster63 - 2016-11-22 5:02 PM

 

Dealer offered me that option but suggested the tyre repair kit would be better as no loose wheel to slide about and he thought changing a wheel of a 3500kg van is best left to breakdown folk.

 

 

But the breakdown folk can't change a wheel for you if you haven't got a spare ?

 

:-|

[Derek Uzzell]

rooster63

 

The 'Fix & Go’ tyre repair kit that’s normally provided with Boxer/Ducato/Relay vehicles comprises a canister of sealant and an electric compressor. If that’s what you have, it would be wise to check the use-by date on the canister.

 

[colin]

Without looking at the wheels it's hard to say, but in general you can have quite a difference in PCD and still get most wheels to fit, the holes are usually quite a bit oversize, it's only when the countersink hits that you get a misalignment and the bolts get pulled over.