Itexuk Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 Fiat UK - 2009-01-30 1:47 PM Update for 2.3 customers : For customers advised that we would be in contact in January. We have now received confirmation of available parts and will be contacting customers in order of logging their cases with us. Due to the parts delay we are now slightly behind for which we apologise. Our customer relations team will be contacting customers from next week in order to bring their vehicles into a Fiat dealership for modification. Customers will be contacted in order of when their cases were logged with our customer relations department. We thank you for your patience whilst we work through our customer contacts. Thank you Fiat for the update and I look forward to my letter or phone call confirming when I can take my Motorhome in for this fix. The sooner the better so I can start to enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted January 30, 2009 Author Share Posted January 30, 2009 I'm informed by Fiat that my last post carries an inaccuracy. I said that there is a rumour intimating that the 3 litre versions are to get a solution to the reversing problems in the way of revised engine mountings and a modified clutch. Fiat say, officially, in an email, that this is not the case. At the present time they have no information about any technical solution for these vehicles. They have also informed me that the revised engine mountings have been fully tested by Fiat and that they are satisfied with the results. I just hope they have been tested more thoroughly than the Ducato itself was before being thrust upon us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 I have been banging on for some time about the ability to reverse up hill at a speed consistant with the conditions i.e. crawling So just to reiterate Andys statement below and this is the real important one not necessarily the judder which varies from nil to fillings falling out.Those folk who think they are in the clear because they don't have JUDDER think again "And especially find a VERY steep hill, try a hill start in reverse, and try to drive it slowly backwards up the hill. Crawling speed really to show how it peforms when performing tight steep manoeuvres. There are also worries that the new engine mountings may need to be stiffer and this may transit more noise and vibration into the chassis." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Hello Melvin, The figures that you obtained from Fiat Professional are incorrect. Those figures are for the 2.2 version. If you have a 2.3 then the following ratios are supplied; 1st gear is 3.727:1 Reverse is 4.083:1 Final drive is different depending on the chassis weight. Maxi version is 5.231:1 Non Maxi is 4.222:1 This information is freely available from dealers in the form of a brochure "Ducato - goods transport, technical specifications and equipment" I also received a message from Colin a week ago regarding some part numbers for new parts associated with the fix.The part number for the gearbox is valid, and yes it has a price of £3120.00 I should tell you that at present all gearboxes for these vehicles have a list price of £3120.00 but they are also available as re-conditioned items from Fiat at a considerably reduced price of between £1200.00 and £1600.00 I would be extremely surprised if down the line, when these new gear boxes appear on the parts system there is not a recon item offered as well. In the past when we have ordered a recon box from Fiat, almost every time we have received a brand new one and only had to pay the recon price. Colin listed a couple of part numbers that were described as flexible pipe to do with the clutch pushing and the clutch kit. These numbers are valid but are listed on the Fiat dealer system as "not possible to order in UK at this time" There are no prices shown for these items. If and when a replacement clutch kit or hydraulics becomes available the prices will be more reasonable. The current price for a 2.3 clutch kit is approx £230.00 , the slave cylinder is approx £70.00 and in the event that you need a clutch master cylinder with all associated pipework it will cost no more than another £110.00 It is highly likely that replacement parts will be similarly priced because that is what normally happens. I am not a representative of a dealer, or Fiat and nothing I say here constitutes a quotation! I am just trying to give some hope that if vehicles slip through the net, when the warranties have run out as long as modified boxes with lower reverse gears or retro fittable gears are available, I don't believe it will be a £5000 job to sort it out. I hope that cheers some people up. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Cheers thanks for that, it would then appear my reverse in lower than first, which is encouraging, however, I still judder on the flat, it is a shame that Fiat technical department are unable to suppy the correct data Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Hi Euroserv Thank you for sharing that info with us.How do we know maxi from non maxi is it above or below 3500 kg GVW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Good point Colin, there are two versions of the 3500kg chassis but the easiest way to tell them apart is that the 30, 33 and standard 35 have 15" wheels while the 35 Maxi (and the 40 Maxi) have 16" wheels. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 My Autotrail Cheynne 660 is on a Maxi 40 chassis, it should be your handbook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roamer Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 If the information from Euroserv is correct, which matches with the Italiaspeed data, then, other than the inappropriate damping of the engine and its reaction with the dmf, there should be no problem with reversing . I have not seen one comment from Renault Master (Vauxhall Movano) based motorhome owners regarding reverse being difficult/to fast . The specification for the 3500kg 2.5 Dti Movano version for reverse is ______ Reverse ratio ____ Final drive ____ Overall _____ tyre size (in) Movano___ 4.19 __________ 3.64 ________ 15.25 ________ 16 Compared with Fiat 100 _____ 3.154 _________ 4.993 _______ 15.559 ________ 15 120 _____ 4.083 _________ 4.222 _______ 17.238 ________ 15 120 maxi _ 4.083 _________ 5.231 _______ 21.358 ________ 16 130 _____ 4.083 _________ 4.222 _______ 17.238 ________ 15 130 maxi _ 4.083 _________ 5.231 _______ 21.358 ________ 16 160 _____ 4.083 _________ 4.222 _______ 17.238 ________ 15 160 maxi _ 4.083 _________ 4.563 _______ 18.631 ________ 16 From this all Ducato versions should reverse equally well if not better than the Master, even if the 16in tyres on the Master have a lower profile it is unlikely they are going to have a smaller rolling radius than the 15in tyres on the Ducato. I can not believe that the above ratio for the 120/130 can be correct, as there would be no need to produce a new gearbox as reverse is already 9% lower than first. I think that the values given to Melvin are correct and Fiat have tried to hide this issue be continuing to produce documentation with the design specification rather than the actual the production unit ratios. With Melvin’s data the 120/130 would be 120 _____ 3.154 _________ 4.222 _______ 13.316 ________ 15 120 maxi _ 3.154 _________ 5.231 _______ 16.499 ________ 16 130 _____ 3.154 _________ 4.222 _______ 13.316 ________ 15 130 maxi _ 3.154 _________ 5.231 _______ 16.499 ________ 16 From this the maxi is still better than the Master but the standard chassis is far to high a gear and would demand a redesign. It would be very interesting to know when Fiat knew the reverse ratio was going to give a problem, and based on this it was not a design characteristic more an implementation cock-up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 31, 2009 Share Posted January 31, 2009 Roamer - 2009-01-31 6:35 PM It would be very interesting to know when Fiat knew the reverse ratio was going to give a problem, and based on this it was not a design characteristic more an implementation cock-up There is a rumour that Fiat knew reverse was a problem before the first one's where sold! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 colin - 2009-01-31 8:24 PM Roamer - 2009-01-31 6:35 PM It would be very interesting to know when Fiat knew the reverse ratio was going to give a problem, and based on this it was not a design characteristic more an implementation cock-up [/QuoteThere is a rumour that Fiat knew reverse was a problem before the first one's where sold!. Question:- Did the dealers and converters also know? It has been stated, I believe that Fiat and some converters consulted very closely to ensure that the resulting Fiat base Vehicle, especially the 130/low line chassis, was the best that could be achieved. Someone out there must know or have suspicions !! on the true answer ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyT Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I took my 2007 Fiat Swift Suntor 580 pr to the main Fiat dealer in Exeter to check out the 'juddering'. They said they found nothing wrong with it. As I do not reverse up a hill very often I can't say I notice it. I will go and try it out again on the hill where I originally tried it out and if it is still a problem write again to Fiat. I must say that the person I spoke to at Fiat in Twickingham has pleasant and understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyT Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I took my 2007 Fiat Swift Suntor 580 pr to the main Fiat dealer in Exeter to check out the 'juddering'. They said they found nothing wrong with it. As I do not reverse up a hill very often I can't say I notice it. I will go and try it out again on the hill where I originally tried it out and if it is still a problem write again to Fiat. I must say that the person I spoke to at Fiat in Twickingham has pleasant and understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesleyT Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I took my 2007 Fiat Swift Suntor 580 pr to the main Fiat dealer in Exeter to check out the 'juddering'. They said they found nothing wrong with it. As I do not reverse up a hill very often I can't say I notice it. I will go and try it out again on the hill where I originally tried it out and if it is still a problem write again to Fiat. I must say that the person I spoke to at Fiat in Twickingham has pleasant and understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Hi Nick Can I add my thanks for the information - it does help to put things into a more positive perspective. Would it be possible to give a price please for the dual-mass flywheel because this may also suffer damage if a clutch has been slipped/burnt. Thanks Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 We wouldn't want Fiat to forget us would we? I wasn't going to bother sticking my tuppence worth in after all the serious and earnest discussion about gear ratios, but it slipped off the top page, and as things still haven't progressed towards a solution I thougt I'd let you know that, as far as the data for the gear ratios is concerned, you're all barking. Up the wrong tree that that is. Reverse gear is a higher ratio than first by about 20%. Just go out in your van and try it. Fiat's data (which is supplied by them to everyone else) concerning the reverse gear ratio on the Ducato was discredited months ago, and there has been no rebuttal or explanation from Fiat about their supposed 'mistake' in the published data. They have been asked many times in both Italy and here, but what can they say. The modified gearbox will have a reverse gear exactly the same ratio as first (due to the casting restrifting anything bigger) but what we haven't yet been able to confirm is whether the box has reached production yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Well it is now February and still no solution, suggestions yes, promises yes but not much else. Has anyone had their vehicle sorted?? All we seem to get is Fiat telling owners that they are becoming aggressive. I wonder why?? Perhaps they and their friends would prefer that no one buys the X250 then as the current vehicles expire their (Fiat) problem will go away !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 There seems to be a great deal of misleading information coming through about the transmission problem and I for one back Andy all the way. What would help was if some one had actually stripped a 6 speed gearbox down and measured the cog diameters and counted the teeth on them instead of assuming what is inside. A starting point could be the previous models reverse gear because we know that that model was OK and was judder free. Is there a qualified fitter out there who could help and be able to get hold of this information for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Final drive 5.231 First gear 3.727/4.34 mph @ 1000RPM Reverse gear 3.154/ 5.13 mph @ 1000RPM I have double checked my reverse gear,it is much higher than first, there is also no reason for Fiat to supply me with incorrect information. I do know what I am talking about, prior to my serious head injury, I was a qualified Automotive Engineer with a Masters Degree, unfortunately due to my injuries my communication and grammer is poor. There is a lot of mis-information going about, Andy is RIGHT your reverse is gear is far too high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The issue of how high the reverse gear is, what it should be etc is of course interesting to engineers like myself and I follow the issue with interest. HOWEVER the issue is that the vehicle 'is not fit for purpose', we should not digress too far from the main problem because some non engineers may get bored and switch off. I wonder what Fiats response at the NEC will be when owners request answer to Juddergate. I suspect that some show goers will be interested to eves drop and then make, hopefully a rational judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Melvin, Your qualifications are not being questioned, I would like to know if there is a fitter who has actually had any of the gears in question in his hands and what are the diagonal measurements and how many teeth are on the cogs and be able to compare them with the previous models. I know that there is a very reputable gearbox reconditioning company in Bolton somewhere, I think off the Ratcliffe Road who might be able to supply the information that is needed, there are gearboxes of every make in various stages of repair and he employs very skilled technicians. If I can get there sometime I am sure he may be able to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Roland, Didn't the late Great Fred Dibnah live In Ratcliffe Road Somwhere ? I know what Fred would have said about Fiat X250 gearboxes.... Nowt worth a carrot ! and then would have got down to building one That would reverse up a ' ill. We are getting on for 3 years now since the X250 was released (escaped) to the unsuspecting public, Fiat are dragging their feet for financial reasons, and while they do more and more are being sold. Unfair, Unethical and in the End, when word gets around... Bad Business. :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 It is not just a simple case of stripping down a gearbox, the design and engineering of these modern gearboxs are complicated. I can understand Fiats reluctants. in practise/ theory they really need to go back to the drawing board, for them this is finacially impractical. Some of the blame should rest with the motorhome manufactures (mine has a 60% overhang), they must have been aware of these problems at the design stage. Fiat had been offering these manufactures, base vehicle for around £5,000, Merc considerably more, I think Ford were more expensive than Fiat. And last but least the motorhome dealer, it would appear they only intrested in a fast buck. At the end of the day the X250 is a superb powertrain, however, it is plaged with this transmission problem. They have supplied the market a powertrain down to a price. There are several parties to blame not just Fiat. I could have specified a Merc powertrain unit for my Autotrail, but like the rest of us I chose the cheaper Fiat option, I knew Fiat had a bad reputation, I was warned by other, but like the rest of you, I took no notice. My wallet ruled my head. :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I wanted my AT Scout on the Merc chassis,because of the size and weight. I was told they weren't using the Sprinter for 2008 models. My last van was a Hymer on a Ducato never gave a moments trouble. I am very disapointed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 To the top again, cannot think of anything pleasant to say about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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