Colin9591 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Frankly, after waiting all this time for a weak and ineffective response from Fiat; they "can't" say or won't say when new vehicles with working gearboxes will be available and are prevaricating extraordinarily about the repairs, we've decided to wait a bit longer and see how the replacement Renault Master compares on size & spec. I've heard on this board that it's due in September but I can't find any other info. Can anyone suggest any sources of info please? Best Regards Colin S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotorhomeViews Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Well Andy and fellow motorhomers, Looks like we may well be up the creek without a paddle. especially it now seems that the Fiat company do not want to address the 2.2 variants with the judder. Even though they took our details and told us they would contact us. I guess this is it, that is there has been no information forthcoming from Italy regarding a fix for these variants. At the moment we are at the legal stage with our dealer regarding work they haven't started or completed on damp penetration to our 9 month old Motorhome. We are due to start our next tour of Spain and France early March. The dealer has the vehicle , the water ingress to the habitation area was reported to them in November 2008. Anyway the point of this off topic issue is that the gov consumer advice legal experts say that any serious fault occuring within the first SIX years of purchase has to be rectified within 14 days at the dealers cost. They say your contract is with the dealer not the manufacturer. This is the address of the department http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/ Call an adviser for help or advice: 08454 04 05 06 Call a Welsh-speaking adviser: 08454 04 05 05 Minicom users: 08451 28 13 84 - Consumer Issues only. For Energy and post issues - Typetalk is available by dialling 18001 followed by the full Consumer Direct number you wish to call. The advice and information we give is free and you can call as many times as you need to. Calls to the Consumer Direct 0845 numbers are charged at no more than four pence per minute from a BT landline and may be free depending on your call plan. Call charges from other landline providers or mobile phones may vary. Please check the rate with your phone service provider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Colin9591 - 2009-02-11 2:04 PM Frankly, after waiting all this time for a weak and ineffective response from Fiat; they "can't" say or won't say when new vehicles with working gearboxes will be available and are prevaricating extraordinarily about the repairs, we've decided to wait a bit longer and see how the replacement Renault Master compares on size & spec. I've heard on this board that it's due in September but I can't find any other info. Can anyone suggest any sources of info please? Best Regards Colin S However, it will be another new vehicle with possible glitches that will remain unknown until it has been around for a year or so. I think I would be more inclined, for now, to sidestep all the Sevel variants, and look at Ford, Mercedes, or Iveco, all of which seem to have been better sorted. As the market for motorhomes and commercial vans has now slowed so much, even if the Sevel duo claim to have fixed the problem in production, it is liable to be some time before the existing stock has fully worked its way through to buyers. It seems inevitable there will be an overhang of vehicles that will be sold post the fix, but which were actually made beforehand. Once they're under a coachbuilt motorhome you'll have the Devil's own job, before you buy, in getting converter or dealer to come clean over when the base chassis was built, or whether it includes the modifications. If you can get a discount equal to the cost of gearbox + complete DMF (parts and labour, naturally :-)) assembly it may be worth buying, but otherwise, in my opinion, vans based on the Sevel brands are total a no-go, at least until the completed vehicles are guaranteed to be supplied free of this fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Brian Kirby - 2009-02-11 3:02 PMS Once they're under a coachbuilt motorhome you'll have the Devil's own job, before you buy, in getting converter or dealer to come clean over when the base chassis was built, or whether it includes the modifications. If you can get a discount equal to the cost of gearbox + complete DMF (parts and labour, naturally :-)) assembly it may be worth buying, but otherwise, in my opinion, vans based on the Sevel brands are total a no-go, at least until the completed vehicles are guaranteed to be supplied free of this fault.Hello Brian,It should be relatively simple to find out when the base chassis was built.A customer can get the Vin No. from the chassis plate of any vehicle he/she is interested in buying. A call to the manufacturer or a main dealer asking them to access the Fiat Database for this information should establish the build date. Fiat have however been known to be obstructive in supplying this information especially if a registration number cannot be quoted.Failing this a call to the coachbuilder with the Vin No. and if available the Coachbuilders Serial No. should be able to establish the base vehicle build date. At least the warranty start date which is initially the date supplied to the coachbuilder will give some clue as should the date stamp on the tyres.I seem to remember that the manufacturers build date may also be on the vehicle specification sticker in the front of the Fiat Service Book supplied with the vehicle.Regards,Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin9591 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Brian Kirby - 2009-02-11 3:02 PMColin9591 - 2009-02-11 2:04 PM Frankly, after waiting all this time for a weak and ineffective response from Fiat; they "can't" say or won't say when new vehicles with working gearboxes will be available and are prevaricating extraordinarily about the repairs, we've decided to wait a bit longer and see how the replacement Renault Master compares on size & spec. I've heard on this board that it's due in September but I can't find any other info. Can anyone suggest any sources of info please? Best Regards Colin S However, it will be another new vehicle with possible glitches that will remain unknown until it has been around for a year or so. I think I would be more inclined, for now, to sidestep all the Sevel variants, and look at Ford, Mercedes, or Iveco, all of which seem to have been better sorted. As the market for motorhomes and commercial vans has now slowed so much, even if the Sevel duo claim to have fixed the problem in production, it is liable to be some time before the existing stock has fully worked its way through to buyers. It seems inevitable there will be an overhang of vehicles that will be sold post the fix, but which were actually made beforehand. Once they're under a coachbuilt motorhome you'll have the Devil's own job, before you buy, in getting converter or dealer to come clean over when the base chassis was built, or whether it includes the modifications. If you can get a discount equal to the cost of gearbox + complete DMF (parts and labour, naturally :-)) assembly it may be worth buying, but otherwise, in my opinion, vans based on the Sevel brands are total a no-go, at least until the completed vehicles are guaranteed to be supplied free of this fault.Hi Brian,Yes, it would be a new vehicle again but I have a slightly better regard for the Renault base, which of course is not Sevel. At least there seem to be no reported cases of reverse judder as is so evident with the Sevel vehicles. Hopefully the Renault may be an evolution of rather than a radical new departure from their design philosophy. In my case the spec. that I want will ensure that it is a new built pv ( which I will have converted privately), so no chance of getting an old stock vehicle even if I were inclined to "invest" my cash in a Sevel, which I would be very reluctant to do now.Also, I want/need an auto and I haven't found either a Ford or Iveco auto. The Mercedes, for a 6 metre van, is somewhat short internally at 3265 mm compared to the 3634 of the Renault. The next Merc. up is 4300 mm internally but nearly 7 metres long which is a bit too large for my purpose, sadly, as I'd very much like the build quality.Even if Fiat were to revert from sinner to Saint in the next weeks and fix all of this problems overnight, then I still do not see them as trustworthy in the longer term. It really is disappointing that Fiat have been so tardy and incompetent (from a PR perspective) in dealing with this matter because from many (not all) other respects the Ducato is said to be a good vehicle to drive.There, I feel a bit better now, but we are still disappointed that we won't have our pvc completed and in service for some time yet.Best RegardsColin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 Mike Chapman - 2009-02-11 4:00 PM Hello Brian, It should be relatively simple to find out when the base chassis was built. A customer can get the Vin No. from the chassis plate of any vehicle he/she is interested in buying. A call to the manufacturer or a main dealer asking them to access the Fiat Database for this information should establish the build date. Fiat have however been known to be obstructive in supplying this information especially if a registration number cannot be quoted. Failing this a call to the coachbuilder with the Vin No. and if available the Coachbuilders Serial No. should be able to establish the base vehicle build date. At least the warranty start date which is initially the date supplied to the coachbuilder will give some clue as should the date stamp on the tyres. I seem to remember that the manufacturers build date may also be on the vehicle specification sticker in the front of the Fiat Service Book supplied with the vehicle. Regards, Mike. All true Mike, but to be able to do that you'd have to buy a stock vehicle. Checking may present some difficulty where the converter is not UK based. Also, if you want to include base vehicle, or converter factory fit, options you can't do that, because the van will be being built to order on who knows what chassis. It was the latter I had in mind as, when buying new, it is the way to get the spec you actually want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I will be at the NEC early on Sat 21st and going directly to the Fiat stand, I am hoping that many others will be doing the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 I still stand by what I suggested months ago. There can never be an answer, considering all the additional foundry, machining and marketing costs. The problem is how can FIAT be entrusted with a modification? The only way they can convince me (?) as a possible future buyer (?) is to put on a publicity display on a site that has steep inclines for reversing. (Outside the NEC would be a start) Then invite a number of motoring publication writers, plus a group of active forum members to make their comments. Good or not. Its pretty obvious that FIAT designers and testers are either gagged or are not so smart as they seem. NO I'm not a FIAT owner and I consider the whole fiasco a right old shambles. Is this an aggresive post? No simply a polite comment and a suggestion to Mr FIAT on how they can win back some sympathy. PS. Well I never, its coming up to showroom time again. Anyone willing to start a book on this post being removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Colin9591 Although Ford stopped offering any sort of automatic gearbox when the present Transit Mk 7 was introduced, I think an auto-box (called "AGile") continues to be available for the current Iveco Daily. See: http://www.wnibonline.com/Building/Articles.aspx/21769 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 We know Fiat are still monitoring this forum so I would like them to answer a simple questiomn which won't require much research: Are the modfied engine mountings which they are proposing to fit into our vehicles exactly the same specification as those now being used on production vehicles? Or are they a special batch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat UK Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Hello, The modified engine mounts are the ones being fitted to current production models. We constantly modify all our vehicles. As advised previously for the 2.3ltr, the engine mounts are to be fitted by the dealership. Then we invite our customers to test the vehicle with the dealership. Should there be a further concern, the dealership will request that the vehicle remain or re-book the vehicle into the dealership for further modification. These modifications will then be determined by our technical department and therefore may differ on each vehicle. These are completed on an individual basis and identified by the technical information. This information has already been supplied to a number of customers who have asked us these questions during our recent discussions. Due to the NEC Show next week, we will not be available for posting or queries via the website. We shall be then reviewing our position regarding the various forums and if we are serving the purpose intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I have a Peugeot, I read that Peugeot are better than Fiat and have come up with a resolution but I have a letter from Peugeot and it says all they can offer at the moment is a software download. Fiat have come on forums and it looks like they have tried to help their customers but where is Peugeot. Has anyone had a fix done by Fiat or Peugeot. Fiat seems to be helping on these forums so why do Peugeot not do the same. Over to anyone from Peugeot for a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I recieved a phone call from fiat this morning to book my van in, lets see what happens, if it does not cure the problem, they will need the van for another 3 days. Are Pegueot have second thought and hoping the enine mounts will work in most cases ? *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin9591 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Derek Uzzell - 2009-02-12 8:35 AM Colin9591 Although Ford stopped offering any sort of automatic gearbox when the present Transit Mk 7 was introduced, I think an auto-box (called "AGile") continues to be available for the current Iveco Daily. See: http://www.wnibonline.com/Building/Articles.aspx/21769 Thanks Brian, That's an interesting article. I don't know how I missed the availability of an auto on this van but I'll revisit their site and see how the Daily shapes up. Cheers ColinS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 My thanks to Fiat for their response - I'll now see if I can confirm this as being the truth. Can the rest of you pick some holes in Fiat's ridiculous assertion that a mass produced vehicle built from mass produced components in one the most modern factories on the planet can require different solutions for a singularly identifiable fault? They must think we were born yesterday. Or tomorrow even. As for Peugeot I've spoken to them several times in the last few days and the position as far as they are concerned, now, is that all customers who have made a complaint (about the singularly identifiable fault) will be having a lower ratio reverse gear ratio by way of a replacement box or a gear kit being fitted, depending on which gearbox is fitted. If any of you have a 5 speed version and haven't had any information it is because they have only just received info (from Fiat I presume) that the modified 5 speed box with lower ratio reverse gear goes into production at the beginning of March and they will then be in a position to replace the gearboxes of those models. If Peugoet have a failing it seems to be in communicating with dealers, so if you don't hear the right things keep shouting at customer care and it should work out in the end. But you may have to be persistent. And Fiat? I first complained about this to them in May 2007. Since then the van has ruined two gearboxes, a clutch (almost set on fire by the Fiat technician whilst trying to reverse up a hill) and is still awaiting another box for what may (or may not) be an unconnected fault. To say the least I'm losing my patience and natural good humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Libbey - as you quite correctly say and as I have previously posted, it is nearly showtime again. Fiat have therfore made some wishy washey statements, a bit like widow tself gratificationey in a pantomime. We will sort it out - oh no you wont, trouble is Fiat are playing both parts, so no real sense from them as usual. Andy has tried to step back, and quite rightly so given all of the effort he has put in so far, but even he has had to get involved yet again. Fiat will NEVER come clean. Only way to get them to see any sense is to make very public the truth about this whole sorry mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 For many years I worked in association with Silent Bloc of Manor Royal in Crawley, makers of rubber mountings etc, (now gone). Given time, with oil and other potential component degradation damage I assume the engine mountings will have to be replaced. From the engine vibrations as described by present users, they are going to receive one hell of a battering. One wonders what else will be affected in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I have seen myself that Fiat cannot even be relied upon to answer a set of straightforward questions in a reasonable manner... instead they adopt a spoilt and derisory tone, carping on about whether they will continue to grace forums with their presence etc.... I know one thing If I was unlucky enough to have a Fiat I would be up at the NEC at show week, making an exhibition of myself and their disgraceful and arrogant behaviour! Get together all of you and make your presence felt...secondly consider jointly putting a few quid into a fund and employ a solicitor and take a test case out against them under the sales of goods act. They would hate the publicity, and it’s exactly what they need to galvanise their thought processes*-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 what is it wthis this server hanging and double posting....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 JudgeMental - 2009-02-12 5:57 PM what is it wthis this server hanging and double posting....... Fiat server, Eddie. Has a normal judder. You'll get used to it after you've destroyed a few keyboards. Ciao! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 Well FIAT you admit that engine mounts,gearbox ratios and clutches have been changed on current production but you only want to change engine mounts on the vehicles without the mentioned mods why is that ?How is it thar Peugeot with the same drive train are to change gearbox ratios. Do you realy expect changing engine mounts to cure the clutch burn experianced when reversing up a hill? Has it got to be 61/2 MPH and 1300rpm when reversing regardless of the confinement? I have to say if you don't fix these vehicles in the way they should be fixed this campain will continue just what do you think that will do to your reputation.People with any FIAT vehicle will doubt your honesty and your engineering skills if you continue in denial there's a lot of angry folk out there and I am just one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 JudgeMental - 2009-02-12 5:57 PM what is it wthis this server hanging and double posting....... Did you hit the 'submit' button a second time? If the post hangs, just go somewhere else then come back, the post should be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I did say that I wasn't going to get involved organising any mass protest at the NEC, and I'm not, but I do have a simple plan to get the point across and everyone could do it, so if any other disgruntled Ducato owner out there is willing to put the idea forward on both forums just send a pm and I'll outline it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 A serious question about the gearbox fiasco (to which I do not know the answer), is, how much will it cost Fiat and the others to put it right? Given the number of these vans in worldwide use and given that a new gearbox, or extensive work on the original is required, the cost in total must be high. I am guessing at a figure of £1000 to Fiat per vehicle involved. Can they actually afford to outlay such sums of money in today's climate? How long will it take them to carry out all the repairs? I have a nasty feeling that this problem could cripple the company, even cause bankruptcy. The consequences to vehicle owners and dealers (if the problem is reported within the first year) could be most unpleasant. Am I being alarmist? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Millions.............No................Years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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