yeti Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 What business needs to remember especially in this current climate is 'The customer may not always be right,but they are still your customer-or someone else's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Has anyone obtained a professional auto engineer's report on their vehicle, and the cause/s of the judder? If not, might it be worth collectively commissioning one? Needless to say, Fiat will reject same, but if provided from a suitably reputable source, maybe a school of mechanical engineering at a well renowned university automobile engineering faculty, it would take a lot of knocking down. There are a few such universities in the UK, and an interested prof just might adopt the problem as a study project.Clearly the problem is complex, and equally clearly the "proper" fix is expensive, which is why there is such reluctance to retro fit the fix en mass. If it could be cured for £5, having regard to the poor publicity they are suffering, would Fiat still be holding back? Methinks not. The mere fact that the weight of evidence eventually prompted them to stop trying to pass this off as a characteristic of the vehicle, and admit to a fault that required a fix, means they are uneasy about their reputation. However, the manner of their response, a drawn out as possible, and as parsimonious as possible, means that they have already decided those affected won't be back for another Fiat for some time. This is a minimalist response to keep the noise down, not the action and attitude if a company that regards satisfying its customers as its highest priority. Too time consuming! What crass arrogance! I am absolutely speechless that this can have come from a customer relations representative of a multi-national company that has manufactured a defective vehicle. Ye gods, this is the kind of customer service British Rail used to hand out 50 years ago!This really deserves to end in court, and a well written, reliable, authoritative, engineering assessment of the causes of, and possible remedies for, this problem, would be a useful first step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Hi Brian That may well be a good way forward not sure how much such a quantified report would cost? guess if it was to carry any weight it would not be cheap but if someone in the UK heads it up I would pledge £100 towards the cost. I am sure as you say done by the right agust body it should carry considerable weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat UK Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Please read my following previous post: "In a previous post, we did advise that we would look again to see if posting in this forum was effective. It is becoming very time consuming and is drawing us away from our main duty of assisting our customers directly." When we posted this, it refers to the internet forums. We do not consider any customer contacting us as "time consuming". This was totally in reference to the forums and the amount of time required. Our comment was taken out of context. We started to post on the forums to start supplying information to Fiat customers. As we have now started the modifications, we need to spend more time assisting our customers directly. We are sure that all the Fiat customers would prefer us to be concentrating on assisting them with their vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Thank you for your clarification, and I accept what you say. However, you must allow that I was not alone in drawing the conclusion I did as to your meaning. Fiat is dealing with seriously aggrieved people, and some, like me who are merely incredulous, so it does need to be very careful how it expresses itself. When treading on eggshells, wear very soft shoes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 What information? I am a Fiat customer. Tell us why Peugeot say that a lower ratio reverse gear is the only viable solution - even though it is going to cost them dearly? Tell us how a stiffer engine mounting can prevent clutches overheating on an incline in reverse when the equation is purely about gravity, torque and bringing the engine up to aspeed where the torque is sufficient to overcome the gravity, and when engine movement is irrelevant? If Fiat wants to give us the information then give it to us. We are all grown-up and understand these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Fiat UK - 2009-02-23 3:26 PM Please read my following previous post: "In a previous post, we did advise that we would look again to see if posting in this forum was effective. It is becoming very time consuming and is drawing us away from our main duty of assisting our customers directly." When we posted this, it refers to the internet forums. We do not consider any customer contacting us as "time consuming". This was totally in reference to the forums and the amount of time required. Our comment was taken out of context. We started to post on the forums to start supplying information to Fiat customers. As we have now started the modifications, we need to spend more time assisting our customers directly. We are sure that all the Fiat customers would prefer us to be concentrating on assisting them with their vehicles. I never trust any communication where some one is so gutless as not to print their name and hide behind a corporate identity and not man enough to stand by what they say. For all I know you could be a 14 year old having a laugh, as your communications are poorly constructed and ill thought out. There is no diplomatic way of saying this, do you think we are all morons? You seem to me to be absolutely clueless in dealing with both engineering issues and customer relations. Do you really think at this stage you can draw the curtain over this debacle and deal with customers individually. The cat is out of the bag, and you have damaged your reputation beyond repair (pun intended) in my opinion at anyway. What about all the prospective custumers waching this issue with interest, are you seriously saying they are not worthy of consideration *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Brian Kirby - 2009-02-23 3:45 PM Fiat is dealing with seriously aggrieved people, and some, like me who are merely incredulous, so it does need to be very careful how it expresses itself. I also thankyou for the clarification, I fall into Brian's category of the incredulous, but I agree entirely with him about expressing your comments with more care, to say the least. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 As for the suggestion of a professionally produced report I would have thought that this is stage two. When people started suffering from the effects of asbestos it was met with the same dismissive attitude by the manufacturers. It was only when an experienced legal team took it on a collective basis that there was any progress. The medical evidence was then used by the barristers to prove their case. I see many similar priciples involved here and any technical document would eventually have to be dealt with in a similar way for it to be successful. Porky well fed and happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I have been a little supportive of Fiat all along in this but the last post is beyond belief. I agree totally with the Judge, surely not a post from Fiat but someone having a laugh. If this post is genuine let us have a name, at least on the MHF forum when any problems with Swift occur someone always comes on with a name and number at Swift to contact. Do as Andy asks and tell everyone what is going to be done, even if the fix is a little time coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Swift Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Agreed, this is a hoax. It's not them really. I don't believe Fiat would deal with people in this way, it's not sensible. You don't fool me Ned (lol) *(edited after Andy's later comment) Or maybe you do !!! 8-) 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Porky - 2009-02-23 4:29 PM As for the suggestion of a professionally produced report I would have thought that this is stage two. When people started suffering from the effects of asbestos it was met with the same dismissive attitude by the manufacturers. It was only when an experienced legal team took it on a collective basis that there was any progress. The medical evidence was then used by the barristers to prove their case. I see many similar principles involved here and any technical document would eventually have to be dealt with in a similar way for it to be successful. Porky well fed and happy No, because in the case of asbestos it was the accumulation of medical evidence that gave wings to the legal case. This case, thankfully, is in a different league, but the logic remains the same. There is no point in briefing lawyers if you have no evidence, and no point in paying the lawyers to get the evidence for you. The starting point is, as it has to be, to get the evidence as to cause and, in this case, as the problem is not terminal, cure. Then, and only then, do you have a basis to proceed that gives any chance of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 No , sorry yes, this was really a senior Customer Relations Executive at Fiat. l'm not going to spill his name all over the forum because I'm not sure its relevant. The man has been told to try and sell us a complete con, and whether 'I'm just following orders' is a justifiable position for the stuff emanating from that office only they can decide. Personally I'd tell the bosses at Fiat it is unacceptable and refuse to do it, but then again I wasn' t very popular with my bosses when I worked in the biggest PR business in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I can only condense all my previous comments into one. ”There aint ever gonna be a fix boys.” It’s too costly. What you have to consider is, how you rate your vehicle, is it as an investment, if yes, then you are wrong, they are no more than a gamble, the same as money in the bank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 FROM FIAT - "In a previous post, we did advise that we would look again to see if posting in this forum was effective. It is becoming very time consuming and is drawing us away from our main duty of assisting our customers directly." When we posted this, it refers to the internet forums. We do not consider any customer contacting us as "time consuming". This was totally in reference to the forums and the amount of time required. Our comment was taken out of context. " So how long does it take to type a posting on the forum ? Even I with 2 finger can do it in a minute or two - or is it the time needed to come up with some incredulous words that look a lot but say and mean nothing. The need for an engineering report has surely been partly completed (By Fiat) as they have authorised numerous repairs to Andy's vehicle. Just needs an independent authority to concur with Fiat and then we have an own goal by Fiat. I am sure that should someone agree to use their vehicle for the report that many of us would contribute. I now have a Ford base after Fiat X250 but would still contribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-02-23 4:55 PM No , sorry yes, this was really a senior Customer Relations Executive at Fiat. l'm not going to spill his name all over the forum because I'm not sure its relevant. The man has been told to try and sell us a complete con, and whether 'I'm just following orders' is a justifiable position for the stuff emanating from that office only they can decide. Personally I'd tell the bosses at Fiat it is unacceptable and refuse to do it, but then again I wasn' t very popular with my bosses when I worked in the biggest PR business in the country. Sorry Andy but no, this has to be the office tea boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 So what's the long term projection here if FIAT won't fix the thousands of suspect vehicles out there what are the options: 1.Refuse to accept the engine mount fiasco has cured the problem and keep on worying FIAT 2 Keep paying FIAT to fix them I understand a clutch is about a GRAND and the money will no doubt help FIAT. 3 Give up and sell but who will buy and is it moraly right to sell to the next mug. Some way down the line some enterprising gearbox re build company will do a mod at a fraction of FIATS price and keep us all on the road?.This has so often happened on weak areas on cars over the years. In the meantime years of worry and heartache and no doubt considerable expence to reach that stage if we do. We should all do what we can to spread the word about how FIAT look after there customers in this case it is X250 but it could be any FIAT vehicle with a major problem that costs to much to fix. The morals of the Romans help finish their Empire the morals of FIAT could do the same to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 As regards taking legal action, many domestic insurance policies have a clause which covers legal claims. The drift of the thing seems to be that they will cover the costs of a claim against a third party if they think there is a reasonable prospect of the claim succeeding. I am not involved in this fiasco, mercifully, but would be prepared to throw in a couple of groats if a class action were to be brought. The more spin that comes from Fiat, the less plausible it all sounds. Is Alistair Campbell working for them? Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 I've just put the phone down after a call from a very upset Ducato owner who went to pick up his motorhome today from the dealers after the fitting of the 'new improved' engine mountings. He went to a hill near the garage, and reversed it up (about 1 in 6) and the vibration wrecked the box. It's the same damage as all the others have suffered prior to the Fiat 'cure' where the reverse gear comes into contact with the synchro cone on second gear (the nearest piece of metal) and ruins the cone. This is what has happened to all the gearboxes damaged so far and demonstrates all too perfectly that Fiat's so called fix will do more harm than good. This is all so ridiculous that I'm not sure what we do next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I was speaking to a colleague today who is awaiting delivery of her new Burstner motorhome due to her shortly. From my conversation with her it appears that the dealers are saying there isn't a problem and that all vehicles are tested [by Fiat] before they are delivered [to the dealers] so they are all okay. I have apprised her of the facts that this, as far as can be ascertained, is a total and utter lie. I have advised that before paying the remaining balance upon collection that a good drive of the vehicle is undertaken with a reverse up at least a 1 in 5 hill for a fair distance to see if her 'van is duly afflicted with 'judder' etc. At home she has a step/sloping drive so if it does suffer from judder she could have problems! Hopefully her motorhome will not be affected but if it is I have also advised her to reject it immediately and not take it away so as to avoid the hassle, worry and distress that comes with owning a judderer. I have also referred her to this site and suggested that she/hubby have a good old read to see exactly what happens etc - fore-warned is fore-armed. So if you're reading this Andrea, or Andrea's hubby ... make sure you get what you are paying for - a fault-free van - so you can enjoy it as it is meant to be and not end up with a 'judderer'. For all of those getting a Fiat based on the X250, whether second hand or new the advice has to be: if it judders DO NOT accept it ... at the moment there is NO FIX for this problem, no matter what you are told to the contrary by dealers of Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-02-23 8:52 PM I've just put the phone down after a call from a very upset Ducato owner who went to pick up his motorhome today from the dealers after the fitting of the 'new improved' engine mountings. He went to a hill near the garage, and reversed it up (about 1 in 6) and the vibration wrecked the box. It's the same damage as all the others have suffered prior to the Fiat 'cure' where the reverse gear comes into contact with the synchro cone on second gear (the nearest piece of metal) and ruins the cone. This is what has happened to all the gearboxes damaged so far and demonstrates all too perfectly that Fiat's so called fix will do more harm than good. This is all so ridiculous that I'm not sure what we do next? What are they worried about? they should now get new box, and ASIUT this should have 12 month garentee, if this should get wreacked later this year it might get replaced by the revised box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 So you are in the middle of Europe, in a remote place, no mobile phone and and unable to walk too far, you get a busted gearbox, you are stranded, IT must be of great comfort while sitting there, upset and probably frightened knowing that you will get a new gearbox which will probably also blow up. Fiat are the cause of the problem but the converters and dealers have to accept their share of the blame. I only hope that enough of the converters drop Fiat and change to other base units. To answer the question " what is the way ahead ", I guess massive publicity and legal action to bring it to the public notice and force Fiat to answer publically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 A question to FIAT, as a matter of engineering interest, not as a FIAT user. One assumes that FIAT are designing and building a new gearbox/clutch mechanism. Will it fit into the present build of difficult user-vehicles? It is assumed that a more substantial set of gears and shafts would be designed. It is then possible that a new outer alloy case casting will also be required to accommodate the modified assembly, due to the components being more substantial, and possibly positioned differently. The new casings may not fit the present user-vehicle build. Your reply would be appreciated I'm sure. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 The clock appears to be ticking for FIAT to resolve this issue amicably, or face the prospect of a class action – something which generally, companies have not had to fear in the UK. The December 2008 proposals from the Civil Justice Council to reform the class actions system in England and Wales may lead to fundamental changes for consumers’ rights. Their publication: “Improving Access Through Collective Actions – Developing a More Effective and Efficient Procedure for Collective Actions” recommends reform of existing multi party mechanisms to provide for actions to be brought on behalf of classes of consumers or businesses. I quote: “Launching the paper, CJC Chief Executive, Robert Musgrove said: “The Council’s recommendations have the clear potential to improve access to justice for both consumers and small business. Research has shown that individual consumers find it difficult to exercise their rights, and obtain access to the courts, and are often put off by cost and complexity. Developing a procedure that will allow them to act collectively, or to allow legitimate bodies to represent identified classes of consumers, should bring benefits not only to the consumers themselves, but also have a much wider beneficial effect on the market economy. Defendants may also see the benefits of certainty and finality against the potential of having to defend many individual actions over years in the courts. The paper is the result of two and a half years of extensive consultation and research. It is not a licence to lawyers or funders to drum up litigation for personal profit, but an improvement in access to justice to allow legitimate claims to be brought.” So perhaps it will not be long before all those affected will have recourse to justice – hopefully “no win no fee” style. I understand there are plenty of UK law firms with time and under-worked lawyers looking for something worthwhile to do at the moment..... See www.civiljusticecouncil.gov.uk.for more info. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Nice one Bob, we know that Fiat monitor this thread, so maybee they will try to resolve the issue amicabily. Many small claims are ignored until the court date gets close and then the defendent appears to realise that the litigant is serious and settles out of court. So any more serious matter would probably result in adverse publicity that would surely upset any defendent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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