Stuart Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 60,000 is a lot of views but many people, self included, will look every day. It would be interesting if Andy were to tell us how many owners he is aware of with faulty 'vans Fiat or Pug. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsgofar Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Hi All, Had an interesting day, travelled to Manchester to visit our daughter, a round trip of 100 miles. We decided to see how many late model vans we could see, i.e white vans and pick-ups etc. the results were as follows:- 52 Merc Sprinters, 34 Ford Transits, 15 Renaults, 2 Ivecco's and as you may have gussed no Fiats, only us 130 multijet, it makes you think does'nt it. Regards Alan & June Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 25, 2009 Author Share Posted February 25, 2009 In answer to the last one the total number of hits on this topic is nearly a quarter of a million (including the one on MHF). The 60,000 here is supplemented by the previous long runnning thread which ran out of server space. Yes that is over 240,000. As for total number of vans affected the plain fact is that 100% of the 6 speed vans can potentially break their gearbox or ruin the clutch if the wrong circumstances are encountered. A design fault, which is what this is, affects all of them. The number of complaints is hard to judge. The recording process stopped at 500 when it became obvious something was seriously amiss and I cleared off to Europe to escape from it all. And there was no way I was picking up on every one. That was April last year. Fiat refuse to tell me how many are the subject of a complaint but during one of many conversations with them firstly they have admitted that they are still picking up new complaints all the time, and after hearing that the 3 litre models make up less than 10% of the total (which is predictable as the percentage sold is about the same) and that there were less than 200 then it seems fair to assume that the total number of complaints is near to 2000. Just Fiat that is. I haven't a clue about Peugeot but suspect that is a small number due to their main customers being 5 speed models. But in truth all this is just an educated guess. The fact is that all of them have the design defect, so every single one of the 6 speed vans is a potential problem. The 5 speed models have a different gearbox and although the reverse gear ratio is too high, it doesn't seem to wreck the box. Only time will tell if the clutch is affected. However Fiat and Peugeot are concerned enough (even about the 5 speed box) that a modified version will be in production in about 5 weeks time. Peugeot tell us that the modified 6 speed gearbox is now in production and is being fitted to ALL the vehicles coming out of the Sevel factory, no matter what badge is on them. Motorhomes built on the modified chassis will not start to appear in the showrooms for several months yet depending on stocks held - which are very high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger20 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Andy has mentioned warranty before and I think this has to be considered more seriously now - a Transferrable Limited Lifetime Warranty (TLLW) on the gearbox, flywheel, clutch and drivetrain. If these parts fail in future they would be replaced and providing this included a lower reverse ratio then the replacements would then revert to a 2 year warranty period. It might well be case that overall costs, particularly if they are spread over several years, could be much less than the current rectification process. More importantly, at a stroke, Fiat would gain huge goodwill and confidence would surely return to both existing and future customers. Fiat targeted the motorhome market with a dedicated base vehicle which is excellent in most respects. However they made a fundamental design error by using a reverse ratio which is too high. If they want to retain this market they must be brave. Even if they don’t admit to making a mistake, a restricted Lifetime Warranty offer would do them great credit. Given the exceptional circumstances and the current state of the world economy I see no reason why this would create any sort of precedent. All this uncertainty and aggravation is becoming a farce. Fiat are not only losing current sales but the damage to their reputation will last for many years (remember what happened to Vauxhall in the 60s). A TLLW would surely make sense, particularly in today’s economic climate. I am concerned that the new mountings will increase Noise, Vibration and Harshness. Will Fiat let me put the old ones back if the "fix" means that the driving experience is worse than before? There is a further warranty aspect which I don’t think has been covered before on the forums. That is Fiat Camper Assistance. This free service only lasts for 3 years and is I believe available subsequently at a cost of £75pa. I think most would agree that this was a very positive move when the new X250 was introduced and I might well take it up after 3 years. However I would not be a happy bunny shelling out for extended Camper Assistance if a gearbox or clutch broke and the damage was caused by reversing! For those like me who are concerned about potential costs out-of-warranty, Nick at Euroserv kindly sent me the following in connection with the price of a dual-mass flywheel. The part numbers that you would need for a standard 2.3 120 or 130 6 speed flywheel is listed as 504092158 (new) and is approximately £290. But there is also a reconditioned one listed as 71791980 and that is 'only' £175! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertandjean Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 Melvin - 2009-02-25 11:18 AM Value of a 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660 SE, 2100 miles registered in May 2008, in part exchange for a new Cheynne 840 3 litre Comfortmatic £33,000, does that help, and no I not buying. :-( Hi Melvin, Although from your purchase price of £44, 000 this is a big hit, it is in line with the formula most dealers seem to apply i.e. that you lose your Vat (17.5% at time) and then a further 10% each year, at least for first 2 or 3 years. On this basis the loss is no greater than might be expected and suggests that juddergate has not depressed trade in prices. Robert and Jean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 I've just dropped my van off at our local Fiat Dealer (Preston Motor Park, and very nice folk they are too) for the modified engine mountings to be fitted (which is a waste of Fiat's money and my time) and didn't take comfort from the fact that their new parts express delivery van is a Renault Master. I think this says it all. I will report on the backwards ascent of the North Wall of Longridge Fell when myself and Franko, (the mechanic, and genuine Italian) give it a go later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Hope you guys are claiming your out of pocket expenses for getting the engine mounts changed as they have not worked and was in a way a 'tryout test' by Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Andy, A good testing ground is Brock Bottoms, the other side of Inglewhite, there are some good hills round there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 26, 2009 Author Share Posted February 26, 2009 Brock Bottom is more than excellent, and a very real life test of place where any owner of any Ducato could get caught in a situation where the gearbox or clutch could be destroyed, and I did consider it, but unfortunately its just a little too real for merely testing. And if Fiat think these aleady totally discredited engine mountings have any place in the solution to this mess, then obviously, like the Ducato itself, they have never been tested in a real life situation. My own van is still at the dealers who are taking two days to fit engine mountings (2 hours max) which cannot possibly make any meaningful improvement. The farce continues.......... If only I'd bought a Peugeot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBS Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 I have been reading this thread with interest. Although not a motorhome owner (we have a caravan) I am an avid subscriber and reader of MMM. One thing puzzles me - why is it not the dealers problem, as it seems to me that the motorhomes concerned are neither fit for purpose nor of merchantable quality? What am I missing? BTW What was Andy doing in PR? He always seems to tell it as it is - without spin. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Would all you contributors to these forums kindly spell their words out according to good Oxford English practice and not post a mirade of meaningless letters such as the previous post here. (PR and MMM are standard English abbreveations) Write to your personal friends in any language you wish but these forums are read by persons worldwide (as well as uneducated bods like me) who have a hard enough job as it is understanding the English language without trying to understand personal nuances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBS Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 libby - 2009-02-26 9:54 PM Would all you contributors to these forums kindly spell their words out according to good Oxford English practice and not post a mirade of meaningless letters such as the previous post here. (PR and MMM are standard English abbreveations) Write to your personal friends in any language you wish but these forums are read by persons worldwide (as well as uneducated bods like me) who have a hard enough job as it is understanding the English language without trying to understand personal nuances. Libby I can only apologise for the error of my ways but I am not a regular poster on this particular forum. I am sorry that you did not understand my ABBREVIATIONS. FYI (another common one meaning 'For Your Information') BTW means 'By the Way'. I am sure that one can find a MYRIAD of acronyms and spellings in The Oxford English Dictionary but I'm not sure that MMM would be in there. Kind regards Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin9591 Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 libby - 2009-02-26 9:54 PM Would all you contributors to these forums kindly spell their words out according to good Oxford English practice and not post a mirade of meaningless letters such as the previous post here. (PR and MMM are standard English abbreveations) Write to your personal friends in any language you wish but these forums are read by persons worldwide (as well as uneducated bods like me) who have a hard enough job as it is understanding the English language without trying to understand personal nuances. Libby, Would he without sin cast the first........... Would you kindly spell your words out according to good Oxford English practice and not post a SIX letter acronym (mirade) that does not appear in the Oxford English dictionary. You may also choose to check your spelling of abbreviations. Lets get back to juddering! Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Andy You say your dealer will take a maximum of 2 hours to fit the engine mount, which I could agree with, however, my van is booked in for monday, my dealer says at least 3 to 4 hours ?. Had a phone call from Fiat yesterday, it would appear the dealer recieved the engine mounts on the 17th febuary, is there any communication/organisation between the two bodies ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 The time they want the vehicle for will have no relation to actual time spent on vehicle, they will be scheduling it in with other customers who are booked in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 No, They told that is how long it will take, they need it for the full day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 No, They told that is how long it will take, they need it for the full day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Discrepancies in time taken there then between dealers. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Some good ideas,mine a Peugeot I have complained to Peugeot via phone,e-mail and letter and Ii have Peugeots replies but still no fix on my motorhome. I have contacted both Watchdog about 9 months ago and then a further 3 times I have also contacted VOSA,I think it needs more people to complain to these 2 and any other bodies who might be helpfull. OK I have read about a few people who have been promised a new gearbox but has this happened? Peugeot please fix my van and all the others do not keep deferring the problem saying that you are working on it. At least Fiat have posted on forums but Peugeot say nothing and then tell me the items i have read in MMM and others are not the true facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 I've just returned from testing my small truck after the new engine mountings were fitted, and thankfully my worst fear, that it would drive like a dog because of increased engine noise and vibration, has not been realised. The 'clunk' on start up has disappeared, and that little thump on the gearlever, in sixth when the throttle is either released or re-applied has lessened. The inital judder when releasing the clutch on not-quite-so-steep hills has also decreased. However, on our local 'proper hill' (about 1 in 5) the thing still juddered and vibrated as before, and will still put the gearbox at risk if you travel at a safely slow speed to watch and steer where you're going, and when I slipped the clutch to ease the vibration and juddering the smell of burning clutch filled the air. I think Fiat may get away with this 'cure' on some vans, especially if they aren't tested in a real life reversing situation on a narrow steep hill with some bends in it (where you are compelled to slow down), but that, I suppose, is life. I now have to start arguing with them all over again - for the next part of the procedure, and after ruining two gearboxes and a clutch I'm finding this stressful and slightly insulting. But hopefully this is some progress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 The only reason some folk may think they have a fix will be because they have not put their vehicle to the full test as described by Andy. Ther is no getting away from the facts THE REVERSE RATIO IS TO HIGH however you dress it up. Andy what did the garage have to say about the clutch burning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Does anyone out there know how to send emails en masse? I've been sending them out in batches of 20 plus another 20 CC (as my normal system will only take 20) but this is proving laborious and I think there is a need to contact everyone more regularly at the present time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Andy Assuming that you are using Outlook Express: 1) Go to "Help" 2) "Contents and index" 3) enter "group" 4) The instructions that you need are the fourth down the list, titled "Create a group of contacts" Good luck ........ Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuwsmith Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 AndyBe careful. My ISP which is AOL blocked my account when I sent out 50+ emails to members of a motorcycle club I belong to. Although they reinistated the account it took a phonecall to an 0870 number ( before BT made 'em free) and was hassle I could have done without. They apparently block accounts that send out large amounts of emails because the accounts could possibly belong to or have been hi jacked by spammers. Other ISPs may adopt the same logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 At last we have a happy ending to this fiasco with the news that Peugeot have started fitting the new (lower ratio reverse gear) 6 gearboxes to owners vehicles. Stan Tingle, long suffering judderer reports that his 2.2litre 6 speed Auto Sleepers Nuevo will now reverse up the steepest gradients without any vibration or need to slip the clutch. The message is clear - insist on a Peugeot based vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.