graementl Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I have recently returned from a trip where my Bessacarr 560 suffered a rapid deflation of the front tyre whilst doing about 60mph on the M6. Fortunately a car driver alongside saw the tyre start to deflate and signalled me to pull onto the hard shoulder just as the last of the air was lost from the tyre. There was no sign of a puncture on the tyre and when I had it replaced the next day the tyre dealer stated that it was the steel valve fitted to the alloy wheel which caused the problem as it was a poor design and he had seen many case like this. Apparently they don't seat properly as the heats increase? or something to that nature. I replaced all the metal valves for rubber at £10 per wheel as I don't wish to have it happen again. Just a word of warning for the potential of apparent failure of steel valves should anybody have similar fitted. Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 But, Graeme, did you have high pressure rubber valves fitted (assuming you run 'typical' MH pressures of over 60psi) as standard rubber valves are only good for pressures below this figure? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graementl Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 Keith, running on Avanz tyres so pressures as recommended by Avon are 50 front, 57 rear, I will check with dealer however to see if they are high pressure rubber valves, thanks, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Are you sure the Avon pressures are for your Bessacarr, or do you mean you have given Avon the actual laden axle weights, and the Avon quoted pressures are against those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 graementl - 2011-05-11 8:21 PM I have recently returned from a trip where my Bessacarr 560 suffered a rapid deflation of the front tyre whilst doing about 60mph on the M6. Fortunately a car driver alongside saw the tyre start to deflate and signalled me to pull onto the hard shoulder just as the last of the air was lost from the tyre. There was no sign of a puncture on the tyre and when I had it replaced the next day the tyre dealer stated that it was the steel valve fitted to the alloy wheel which caused the problem as it was a poor design and he had seen many case like this. Apparently they don't seat properly as the heats increase? or something to that nature. I replaced all the metal valves for rubber at £10 per wheel as I don't wish to have it happen again. Just a word of warning for the potential of apparent failure of steel valves should anybody have similar fitted. Graeme Tyre valves do fail catastrophically (probably more often than people would like to think and as some forum-members owning Transit Mk 6-based motorhomes will have found out the hard way) and it's bound to be the case that certain valve designs are better than others. However, to suggest that metal clamp-in tyre valves as a breed are in some way 'inferior' to rubber snap-in valves is, frankly, nonsense. Rubber snap-in valves come in two basic flavours - low-pressure, designed for pressures up to about 65psi or high-pressure for up to about 80psi. Beyond that are metal clamp-in valves designed for pressures up to about 200psi. The main advantage of rubber snap-in valves to tyre fitters is that they are cheap (frighteningly cheap sometimes) and simple to install and remove. Even the cheapest clamp-in valve is a lot dearer than a snap-in valve and the tyre-fitter needs to have more expertise, and take far more care, when installing a clamp-in valve than a snap-in. In your case, it may well be true that the valves fitted to your Bessacarr's wheels were faulty/poorly designed and that swapping them for rubber snap-in valves was a sensible course of action, but that certainly should not encourage other motorcaravanners to do the same. The snap-in valve is inherently inferior to the clamp-in type and, if the latter is good quality and correctly fitted, I would argue strongly that it should be the tyre-valve of choice for any reasonably-sized motorhome. Michelin used to specify that, when motorhomes were fitted with 'camping-car' tyres, only metal clamp-in valves should be used - this advice wasn't just given for fun. I hesitate to say this, but my 50 years of experience of the tyre-fitting trade as a customer (and victim!) doesn't give me great confidence when it comes to being provided with reliable information. For example, when another forum-member inquired about fitting metal clamp-in valves to his Transit-based motorhome, he was told that this would only be practicable if the valve-hole in the wheel rim were drilled to a larger diameter. Total twaddle and this from an 'expert' whose business specialised in selling tyre-valves. Back in 2006 there was a problem with 'wrong' tyre valves on Swift motorhomes, but I don't think this will affect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 I used to work for one of the worlds largest tyre makers and agree with above post,there is another type of valve that looks like a metal valve with chrome stem but is basically a rubber pull through. This type is mainly use on alloy wheel on cars for apprenence but can cut through the rubber part of valve through moment or when removing cap to refill with air. I wonder if it was this type of valve. Over 60psi you have to fit fully metal valves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Spot on Derek the metal clamp in valves are Superior to the far cheaper rubber types unfortunately there are a lot of far eastern cheap nasty valves of all types about and the quality of some of these is very bad making them dangerous also the clamp in type need more care with fitting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 5 years ago I had 2 rubber valve failures in France on a 15 year old Hymer. When I returned home, my local tyre supplier advised and fitted metal valves on all 6 wheels for £12 total. They were in his suppliers catalogue as 'Racing Valves'. These were on steel wheels. I could not see how the steel valves would fail since the tyre pressure on the inside holds the valve against the metal rim even if the external nut were to come loose. Rubber valves age and leak or, as in my case, just become fatigued and split at the rim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 urbanracer - 2011-05-12 10:34 AM ...Over 60psi you have to fit fully metal valves. Just to re-emphasise that there are snap-in 'rubber' valves designed to handle inflation pressures well beyond 60psi. Ford, Fiat and Renault have all factory-fitted them as original equipment for light commercial vehicles. For example, Alligator's latest CVV snap-in valve described on the following webpage is good for up to 100psi: http://www.alligator-ventilfabrik.de/index.php?latest_news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-05-12 9:51 AM The snap-in valve is inherently inferior to the clamp-in type and, if the latter is good quality and correctly fitted, I would argue strongly that it should be the tyre-valve of choice for any reasonably-sized motorhome. Michelin used to specify that, when motorhomes were fitted with 'camping-car' tyres, only metal clamp-in valves should be used - this advice wasn't just given for fun. Last week in France I awoke to find that my front near-side tyre was completely flat. The problem transpired to be the valve. The rim is steel and fitted (last October in France) with a Michelin Agilis new tyre. The fitter told me that Michelin insisted on steel valves and quoted the required pressure. Ihave a suspicion that the valve failure may have been due to tampering but cannot prove it. However, if not it is worrying that the valve lasted only about 1500 miles so I have kept the faulty one and will show my garage man the next time I go to France. I am not convinced that the replacement is metal (knowing absolutely nothing about mechanics etc.!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graementl Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Brian, the weights quoted to Avon were actual weighbridge axle weights and hence recommended pressures came back as 50psi(front axle 1650kgs), 57psi(rear axle 1850kgs), vehicle runs at maximum gross weight when fully laden, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Oh good. But still worth making sure the valves fitted are suitable for pressures over 60psi, as the originally recommended pressures will presumably have been higher. After all, someone may innocently inflate them beyond 60 at some stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Another consideration is your insurance in an accident if you have the wrong valves fitted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyfletcher Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Hi Just to add to the original thread, I too suffered 2 tyres going flat. Fortunately I was staionary at both times so the damage to the tyre was limited I changed all my Tyres onto steel valves as on both times the valves were the fault This was 3 years ago, I would change my next Motorhome tyre valves for the same reasons Cheers Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 and, of course if you have nothing to contribute, you can always raise the 'you won't be insured bogey'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 aultymer I would have a battle of wits with you but I do not think it fair to fight with the unarmed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 jhorsf - 2011-05-12 8:51 PM Another consideration is your insurance in an accident if you have the wrong valves fitted How would you define “wrong valves”, please? For example, Graeme’s 2009 Bessacarr is built on a 3500kg MAM Fiat X250 chassis. It has alloy wheels - which I would guess are a Bessacarr option rather than being Fiat factory-fitted - and I’d further guess that these are 15” diameter and wear Avon Avanza AV9 tyres in 215/70 R15C 109/107R size. It’s a mite odd (as far as I’m concerned) that Avon tyres are fitted, as I wouldn’t have anticipated that these would have been used by Fiat originally and, as the vehicle is 2009, nor would I have anticipated that its original tyres would have needed replacement yet. So it seems fair to assume that the alloy wheels + Avon tyres + the metal valves were provided as a combination-package when Graeme's motorhome was first sold. As all of Graeme’s original metal tyre valves have now been replaced by rubber ones, would you say that the replacement valves are “right” or “wrong”? If the original valves were high-pressure type and, as seems quite likely, the replacement rubber ones turn out not to be, do you believe that would make the replacement valves wrong? Avon does not make ‘camping-car’ tyres and the maximum design inflation-pressure for an Avanza 215/70 R15C 109/107R tyre will be around 65psi, with the 50psi(front) and 57psi(rear) pressures Graeme quotes being appropriate for static axle-loads of 1650kg and 1850kg respectively. 57psi is below the maximum inflation pressure for common-or-garden ‘car’ rubber snap-in tyre valves, so, even if the original metal valves were HP type and the replacements are not, the replacement valves should be adequate. But metal clamp-in valves were fitted to the wheels originally, so would you argue that any other type of valve is wrong? My Transit-based Hobby has taken the opposite road to Graeme's Bessacarr. Rubber high-pressure tyre valves were Ford factory-fitted originally to the Hobby and, when two of these failed, all the valves were replaced with Alligator-branded metal clamp-in ones. Ford specifically warns against fitting common-or-garden ‘car’ rubber snap-in tyre valves to these models of Transit and defines the ‘correct’ high-pressure snap-in valve (a valve on Ford’s parts-list) that should used when a valve requires replacement. But the Alligator-made valves now fitted to my motorhome are not the Ford parts-list ones. As you are familiar with motor insurance, is it your considered opinion that an insurance provider would consider the tyre valves now on my Hobby to be ‘wrong’ if the vehicle were involved in an accident, even though the Alligator metal valve has a significantly higher specification than the Ford-recommended rubber snap-in valve.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 jhorsf - 2011-05-14 10:00 PM Derek sorry if my posts was missleading I should have said low pressure valves not( wrong), as far as your van is concerned I would think you have taken the same aproach as most and gone belt and braces higher spec than O.E. Personally I would fit bolt in type valves on a motorhome/ pvc everytime as they are safer at higher pressures in my opinion. as far as the other gentlemans valves are concerned its a bit of a minefield if you have a blowout and accident and it is down to a valve and the Insurance company engineer decides its not a high pressure valve.Do you argue the tyres I had fitted were at the right pressure and within the valves range? I do not know but for the sake of a few pounds EVERY TIME you have new tyres I think its money well spent on good quality bolt in type valves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 As I sit in a luxury B&B on the isle of Islay the efforts of some fill me with not a care in the world. Especially those who have nothing to say. Except maybe 'you will not be insured' if your van has the tyre valve the manufacturer fitted!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 aultymer - 2011-05-13 10:54 AM and, of course if you have nothing to contribute, you can always raise the 'you won't be insured bogey'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Personally, I'd be startled if an insurance company's accident inspector were able to diagnose that a tyre valve was 'wrong' in the event of a tyre valve-related accident. Even if it transpired that the motorhome in question had tyre valves that were unsuitable for the inflation pressures being used, it's hard to see how the vehicle's owner could be directly blamed for this as a) few people fit their own tyres/valves and b) drivers in general haven't a clue about valve technicalities, relying on the tyre-fitting trade (that also seems to be woefully low on tyre-valve knowledge in my experience) to install appropriate valves. It is possible to imagine a scenario where a motorhome starts life with standard snap-in 'car' valves and standard 'white van' tyres then, later on, gets 'camping-car' tyres that the motorhome owner decides to run at pressures above the design-maximum pressure of a 'car' valve. But, if insurance companies were able to reject claims based on drivers' lack of technical understanding, there would be a helluva lot of claims being rejected every day of the week. (In fact, as a result of the spate of HP snap-in tyre-valve failures relating to Transit Mk 6s, it's certain that there are plenty of these vehicles now with 'car' valves when they ought to have HP ones instead.) As I've suggested in the past, it would be sensible if all motorhomes were fitted with metal clamp-in valves from Square One. This is not because they necessarily need them, just that, if there's a metal valve there to begin with, there's less likelihood that a tyre-fitter will install a 'car' valve rather than a HP valve at tyre-replacement time. As long as 'camping-car' tyres and/or HP valves are being fitted to some motorhomes but not others, the simplest no-brainer solution would be to standardise on a heavy-duty valve that should cope with any tyre-type or inflation-pressure combination, and that's what a metal clamp-in valve should do. It's unrealistic to advise motorcaravanners to fit metal clamp-in valves when tyres are replaced a) because tyre-fitting outlets normally won't stock suitable valves and b) because tyre-fitters will (in my experience) normally advise owners that a 'car' rubber snap-in valve will be plenty adequate. As it's easy to distinguish between a metal clamp-in valve and a rubber snap-in one, but a good deal less straightforward to distinguish between 'car' or HP snap-in valves, if clamp-in valves were always fitted to motorhomes the risk of 'getting it wrong' would be minimised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Given that tyre fitter's knowledge is often unreliable is it good practice to renew metal tyre valves, as one would with rubber valves, when replacing tyres - or is it better to say that if it ain't broke why fix it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Tracker - 2011-05-15 10:03 AM Given that tyre fitter's knowledge is often unreliable is it good practice to renew metal tyre valves, as one would with rubber valves, when replacing tyres - or is it better to say that if it ain't broke why fix it? When a tyre needs replacement on a wheel fitted with a metal clamp-in valve, normal policy for the UK tyre-fitting industry seems to be to replace just the valve's core, but the reason for doing this is undoubtedly for convenience rather than as best practice. The vast majority of vehicle tyre valves are snap-in type and, consequently, tyre-fitting companies need to keep a good variety of these in stock. But, because the demand is so much smaller and clamp-in valves are relatively expensive, many tyre-fitting companies will stock few (if any) of this type. As long as the clamp-in valve isn't damaged or leaking, replacing the core seems to be deemed acceptable by UK tyre-fitters. Logically, as the rubber base-seal of a clamp-in valve is not everlasting, best practice would be to replace the complete valve at tyre-replacement time. (It's not normally practicable to replace a valve's base-seal alone as the design of the seal is not standardised.) However, to do this, you'd very likely need to obtain the new valves yourself and provide them to the tyre-fitter when the tyres needed changing. You'd also need to be confident that the tyre-fitter understood how to fit the valves properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Hi Derek, Where did you source your Stomil (Alligator Brand) valves from. I have been searching for a supplier/source in UK for either Schrader or Alligator. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Brambles - 2011-05-16 9:57 PM Hi Derek, Where did you source your Stomil (Alligator Brand) valves from. I have been searching for a supplier/source in UK for either Schrader or Alligator. Jon. I obtained my Alligator clamp-in valves from a company called Auto4. Details are on http://www.misterwhat.co.uk/company/2639657-auto4-ltd-sutton-in-ashfield but the website is currently down. You could try contacting Schrader(UK) for advice on their UK distributors http://schraderinternationaluk.com/ When I was looking for clamp-in valves for my Transit, I got in touch with them and they sent me 10 free of charge. Doubtful you'd get treated similarly well and, in the end, I chose to use the Alligator valve instead as its design made it simpler to install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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