Bojitoes Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 We just came back from Ireland last week and had a couple of instances of engine run on. Has anyone any thoughts on possible causes? It doies not happen every time I turn the ignition off. Base vehicle Transit 2.2 diesel, 2009. many thanks Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I vaguely remember in the dim and distant past that when we had this on previous vehicles, it was usually a case of the choke sticking and/or the fuel mixture being too rich .... not sure about on modern engines though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 On an electronically injected diesel this should not happen, since turning off the ignition should also turn off the fuel supply. So, no fuel, and no EMS, should "kill" the engine instantly. I think you should take it to a Ford Transit specialist and get them to access the fault codes, because it seems to me something is wrong, possibly just the ignition lock not cutting off properly. However, from what you say I think it should definitely be investigated, and soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I would agree with Brian. As a compression-ignition engine, if fuel is still being delivered after it is turned off, it will continue to run. Typically, it is a symptom of a faulty fuel-pump solenoid, though changes over the years may mean that pump-switching is accomplished in other ways. Another less-likely cause is overfilling with oil, which finds its way into the cylinders and acts as a fuel. If you have a 2009 vehicle, then technically it should still be under warranty, even as an import (though if you or the dealer didn't arrange to have the warranty adjusted at registration time, or your service routine to date has not been up to Ford standards, it might be a bit more complicated than that). Take it to a (Transit competent) Ford dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Robinhood - 2011-11-08 8:09 AM ...If you have a 2009 vehicle, then technically it should still be under warranty, even as an import (though if you or the dealer didn't arrange to have the warranty adjusted at registration time, or your service routine to date has not been up to Ford standards, it might be a bit more complicated than that)... It's perhaps worth adding that a Transit-based motorhome sold 'first retail' in the UK SHOULD be eligible for a 3-year 'bumper-to-bumper' Ford warranty commencing on the date of sale (or very close to that date) and the 3-year duration warranty should be provided irrespective of whether the motorhome was converted in the UK or elsewhere. This conflicts more than a little with statements made in a piece ("Warranty Expiry?) on page 192 of November 2011's MMM magazine, but the issue was researched/discussed at length a few years back on this forum and (as far as I'm aware) when there have been quibbles initially about a Transit-based motorhome's warranty duration, a 3-year period has always been agreed eventually. It does need saying that it's wise for a buyer of a new Ford-based motorhome to check ASAP after purchase with a Ford agent what data are recorded in the Ford files regarding the vehicle's warranty. When a motorhome is brand-new and (hopefully!) problem-free, resolving a warranty-duration argument shouldn't be too controversial. If no check has been made and, say, 26 months on the responsibility for a substantial repair bill needs to be established, it may be much more difficulty to get a warranty shown as 2-years in Ford's records converted to 3-years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-11-08 10:10 AM Robinhood - 2011-11-08 8:09 AM ...If you have a 2009 vehicle, then technically it should still be under warranty, even as an import (though if you or the dealer didn't arrange to have the warranty adjusted at registration time, or your service routine to date has not been up to Ford standards, it might be a bit more complicated than that)... It's perhaps worth adding that a Transit-based motorhome sold 'first retail' in the UK SHOULD be eligible for a 3-year 'bumper-to-bumper' Ford warranty commencing on the date of sale (or very close to that date) and the 3-year duration warranty should be provided irrespective of whether the motorhome was converted in the UK or elsewhere. Thank you Derek, I really need to learn to be more precise with my wording :-( . When I referred to import, I meant built abroad, (generally on a base vehicle procured abroad) but subsequently exported by the converter and first registered in the UK. I sorted the 3 year warranty for my own van directly with Ford Customer Services (copying them the registration details). From recent correspondence, it would appear that they now insist on a dealer seeing the documentation and vehicle, but will still revise the warranty length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Don't want to over complicate this, but from my own enquiries (verbal) it seems the situation is not, necessarily, quite that straight-forward. Whenever is it? :-) Whether an imported (from mainland Europe) van first sold new in the UK will have a two, or three year warranty, I was informed (by a Ford "Customer Services" wallah), depends on the arrangement the converter has made with Ford for their RHD chassis. As these chassis are bought and converted outside the UK, the default warranty is the Euro-standard 2 years. If the converter chooses to pay a supplement (I did not ask when/where this supplement becomes payable, but presumably somewhere between the converter paying for the chassis and eventual registration by the dealer), the UK third year warranty can then be added. Therefore, anyone who has bought an imported (as in not converted to a motorhome in UK) motorhome - whether or not it is on a Ford base (because the Euro-standard two year warranty also applies to all other bases) should check their warranty documentation for what that says regarding duration of the warranty, and should then 'phone the warranty department of the base manufacturer or, in the case of Ford a main dealer (because, on my experience, Ford have devolved responsibility for customer warranty queries to their main dealers), give them the vehicle's VIN, and ask them to verify a) that their records correspond with what the documentation says, and b) that the date for commencement of the warranty corresponds with the date of first registration of the vehicle. To this end, if visiting a Ford main dealer, it would be wise to take the VIN as well, because the dealer can access the Ford database and, given the evidence, should be able to re-set the warranty commencement date as/where necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I must admit that my understanding was that all RHD bases supplied by Ford Europe to motorhome manufacturers were expected to end up in the UK or (much smaller) Irish market, and were shipped on the basis that the home market warranty terms would apply. I also gained that impression from my (protracted - until I found someone in the European Warranty Department) conversations with Ford CS. The current blurb specifically on the Transit motorhome base would appear to support that more than gainsay it, but I would agree, it is far from clear. There certainly has been a situation where Fiat offered a shorter warranty on RHD vehicles (converted either abroad or in this country), than the LCV warranty offered for standard Fiat Ducato vans, as this was "dealer-backed", and Motorcaravans weren't distributed through that channel. (AFAIK, Swift, for one, arranged for an extra year's cover on their conversions). Whatever, I have seen various accounts that persistence is required with Ford, and my own experience indicates it may not be simple to sort things unless you get hold of the correct individual. As the saying goes YMMV. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 My knowledge may be out of date but in the 'old days' a diesel engine running on could be due to air in the fuel system and the cure was to bleed the air out? That, of course may no longer apply due to all that techy fangled electronics that make simple jobs so much more complicated these days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Tracker - 2011-11-08 1:20 PM My knowledge may be out of date but in the 'old days' a diesel engine running on could be due to air in the fuel system and the cure was to bleed the air out? That, of course may no longer apply due to all that techy fangled electronics that make simple jobs so much more complicated these days! Yes, but that was before common rail and electronic injectors. Now when you switch off the ignition, as I understand it, you cut the electrical supply to the injectors, which therefore stop injecting fuel, and you also interrupt the supply to the fuel cut-off valve, which closes. Therefore, even with compression ignition, with the ignition off (albeit there may be a delay to allow an orderly shut-down) there should be a) no fuel supply to the injectors, and b) no electrical supply to activate them. Either should stop the engine, both should absolutely ensure this is achieved. So, I'd suspect a faulty ignition switch, or an EMU that has developed a mind of its own. Creepy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Bob, How long does it run on for or do you stall it when it happens? Also does it run at idle or start accelerating? And does it produce abnormal smoke when it happens? A lot of questions but hopefully they'll point to the right answer. A modern diesel cannot run on when the ignition is turned off! Statement. Therefore if it carries on running for more than a few seconds the only reason I can think of is when there is a fault with either the crankcase breathers, a vacuum pipe or a turbo oil seal and the engine starts running on it's own engine oil by 'pulling over' the oil over from the crankcase. I will not be a doom and gloom merchant at this time until more info is known, but this condition is definitely not normal so I feel you need to get it to a dealer asap to diagnose the fault. Keith. PS When did you last check the engine oil level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Running on can be caused by excessive carbon deposits on the cylinder head/valves or ignition settings being too far advanced, either way I should get it into a workshop asap. :-D B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Robinhood - 2011-11-08 1:15 PM I must admit that my understanding was that all RHD bases supplied by Ford Europe to motorhome manufacturers were expected to end up in the UK or (much smaller) Irish market, and were shipped on the basis that the home market warranty terms would apply. I also gained that impression from my (protracted - until I found someone in the European Warranty Department) conversations with Ford CS. The current blurb specifically on the Transit motorhome base would appear to support that more than gainsay it, but I would agree, it is far from clear. There certainly has been a situation where Fiat offered a shorter warranty on RHD vehicles (converted either abroad or in this country), than the LCV warranty offered for standard Fiat Ducato vans, as this was "dealer-backed", and Motorcaravans weren't distributed through that channel. (AFAIK, Swift, for one, arranged for an extra year's cover on their conversions). Whatever, I have seen various accounts that persistence is required with Ford, and my own experience indicates it may not be simple to sort things unless you get hold of the correct individual. As the saying goes YMMV. ;-) Well, times change and stuff happens, so it is quite possible what you say is now the norm, especially as Ford seem to have been trying to shift more Transit bases to the converters. My info was 2007 vintage for Ford, and 2005/6 vintage for Fiat. I'd guess that whatever warranty conditions actually apply will be revealed by the VIN, and will relate to the date the chassis was sold to the converter. If that is correct, it is likely there may be some variation in warranty duration between imported vehicles, even when first sold in the same year. A recent letter to MMM cited a June 2009 registered Dethleffs van, that the owner was told was now out of its two year warranty. It transpired that the chassis was of 2007 vintage. A warranty issue had been identified by a Ford dealer when it went for service in 2011, but was rejected as a claim, because the warranty had expired. No-one had checked the date of first registration, which my Ford Warranty clearly states is the date cover commences, and the selling dealer had apparently not notified Ford when the vehicle had first been registered. So, the whole lot of them had failed, the motorhome dealer hadn't done his job and notified Ford of the date of first registration, the Ford dealer hadn't queried why a warranty apparently commenced in 2007 on a vehicle with 2009 plates, and Ford hadn't queried why the dealer had thought a 2007 vehicle might still be under warranty in early June 2011! So, I just think it wisest to check, because if you don't, it seems no-one else will - and you just may get a pleasant surprise. The least that can happen is that you will find out where you actually stand vis-a-vis warranty, so if it turns out to be two years when you had thought it would be three, you will be no worse off in fact, but at least you will know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 bigal - 2011-11-08 5:49 PM Running on can be caused by excessive carbon deposits on the cylinder head/valves or ignition settings being too far advanced, either way I should get it into a workshop asap. :-D B-)Only on a Petrol engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bojitoes Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hi All thanks for responses as always. Update: The 'van went into local Ford dealer, Guest Motors, aTransit specialist, this morning. Agreed it is still under warranty. They wanted to know, first of all if I had put any dodgy fuel in and then if the engine was definitely running or if it was only a noise. Advised all fuel bought from reputable garages and definitely engine run on- now waiting the next call Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bojitoes Posted November 11, 2011 Author Share Posted November 11, 2011 Hi again Got the motorhome back this morning- there was a space in our lives wihtout it, and plenty of room outside the house to park! No fault found when they did the diagnostic check, including the latest "PCM" upgrade, whatever that may be. So we will loive in hope that all goes well on our next trip away, hopefully Spain in January. Thanks for all the suggestions and advice Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 The PCM is the power (or powertrain) control module. With the proliferation of computers installed in modern vehicles, the term ECU seems to be falling into disuse. Essentially, they have updated the engine management parameters for your engine computer. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Bojitoes - 2011-11-11 4:51 PM Hi again Got the motorhome back this morning- there was a space in our lives wihtout it, and plenty of room outside the house to park! No fault found when they did the diagnostic check, including the latest "PCM" upgrade, whatever that may be. So we will loive in hope that all goes well on our next trip away, hopefully Spain in January. Thanks for all the suggestions and advice Bob Bob, I would most strongly suggest you clock up more miles before heading off for Spain as it sounds very much like the dealer has fobbed you off. If you could answer the questions in my earlier post I will try and get you help as we fit the Ford diesel engine to our vehicles at work and I can get 'inside information'. In fact that is where my suggestions of possible causes came from. And finally it is very unlikely that updating the PCM will cure the fault as it is more likely a component failure. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Get the crankcase breather checked,,,,they have been known to fail on a few and cause oil to be pulled into the engine causing run on,,,,just like a failing oil turbo seal,,,,Check your oil levelRegards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Robinhood - 2011-11-11 6:55 PM The PCM is the power (or powertrain) control module. With the proliferation of computers installed in modern vehicles, the term ECU seems to be falling into disuse. Essentially, they have updated the engine management parameters for your engine computer. ;-) Hi Robinhood, Are you suggesting that the engine has been re-mapped in some way.If so, would not the relevent insurance company need informing? cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Derek, it has been updated not uprated. Manufacturers often update the program and maps to overcome little clitches. As it is an OEM update there is no need to tell the insurance company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Brambles - 2011-11-12 9:27 AM Derek, it has been updated not uprated. Manufacturers often update the program and maps to overcome little clitches. As it is an OEM update there is no need to tell the insurance company. cheers Brambles, just that I was considering remapping but frightened off by possible insurance and warranty comebacks. Bojitos, I do hope all is well and your trip goes well. derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bojitoes Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Keith Thanks for your prompt & taking away my false sense of security! The run on has only happened twice, both after long drives, 50 miles & 170 miles. Both instances happened at night, in the dark so no idea if there was any smoke.Idling speed remains fairly constant at about 8000rpm with no obvious sign of accelerating. I would be grateful for your thoughts Many thanks Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 derek pringle - 2011-11-12 9:14 AM Hi Robinhood, Are you suggesting that the engine has been re-mapped in some way.If so, would not the relevent insurance company need informing? cheers derek ....Yes, I am suggesting that, and No, I don't believe the there is any need to inform the insurance company. As posted elsewhere, manufacturers regularly refine their programming for vehicle computers (you might be surprised how many there are in a current vehicle), and updating the parameters to the latest (manufacturer created) set is essentially simply a service item. I also have a Transit, which was subject to an intercooler hose recall from the day I picked it up, and my main dealer also did a PCM update at the same time whilst it was in the workshop. Bojitoes - 2011-11-12 1:23 PM Keith Thanks for your prompt & taking away my false sense of security! The run on has only happened twice, both after long drives, 50 miles & 170 miles. Both instances happened at night, in the dark so no idea if there was any smoke.Idling speed remains fairly constant at about 8000rpm with no obvious sign of accelerating. I would be grateful for your thoughts Many thanks Bob ....I do hope you mean 800rpm, otherwise it is likely someone has fitted a Formula 1 engine. ;-) A PCM upgrade can have a significant effect on an engine's running. As an example, there has been a widely publicised upgrade to the Mk7 transit PCM parameters in the recent past to significantly improve the "anti-stall" capabilty when starting off in (the high) first gear. Those that have had it done (including a good few motorhomers) seem to report a huge improvement in the ability to set off without stalling. I would certainly keep a check on your oil levels, as this is a known problem area causing running-on even in modern diesels. A good example is the recent Mazda 6 failing to do a DPF regenerate properly, contaminating the sump with unburnt fuel and raising the oil (now oil/diesel) level to the point that it is ingested into the cylinders and the engine consumes it as fuel, runs-on, accelerates, and essentially "blows up". This is, however, very different from a couple of seconds running-on, so I think it very unlikely you have such an issue. I would suggest that the PCM upgrade may well cure it, or that, as I think Brian Kirby suggested, you may have a slightly dodgy ignition lock, or other ignition/electrical related issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Hi,,,Have you checked your oil level after such high revs,, I do hope yo mean 800RPM idle,,,,,what were the revs on run on?Again get the crankcase vent checked and intercooler and pipework checked for oilRegards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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