mrs w curry Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 hi having problems with my 4 year old fiat only being able to start with jumpleads. batteries checked both ok - someone has suggested it may be an earth problem and earth will need checked. how do i locate and do this - i have limited mechanical skills any suggestions welcome.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Hi Wendy, There was a post by Euroserv on a recent thread regarding earth leads. Have a look at the second post on this thread Link. A quick way to check would be to connect one of your jump lead cables from the engine battery Negative terminal to a good earth point directly on the engine and then see if it will start. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 A four year old Ducato, which model? Below is a photo of the right hand side of engine bay on our x250, you can just see one end of earthlead arrowed. Good tip about juymplead, but you will not easlily be able to connect a jump lead from batery to engine, but you can attach it from chassis to engine easy enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 We had a similar problem with the previous Fiat Ducato. All the evidence pointed to an earthing problem but in the end after much searching we found a duff connection on one of the positive leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Keithl - 2011-12-31 4:13 PM Hi Wendy, There was a post by Euroserv on a recent thread regarding earth leads. Have a look at the second post on this thread Link. A quick way to check would be to connect one of your jump lead cables from the engine battery Negative terminal to a good earth point directly on the engine and then see if it will start. Keith. However, do make sure you look up and follow exactly the owner's manual instructions for jump starting. It will say which jump lead should be connected to which terminal, in which order at both ends, and whether the donor vehicle engine should be running or not. If you get that wrong, you risk frying the electronics on one, or other, or possibly both, vehicles. Very expensive!! It probably is the so called earth strap or lead from the engine block (the terminal just visible in Colin's posted picture) to the chassis earth point (not visible in Colin's picture) that has come loose. If you have a breakdown service available at (presumably?) home, call them out and they will know where to find the earth strap/lead. Re-attaching should take only minutes - though it may need a new bolt or nut if the original has dropped off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 If it won't start on it's own battery but will when jumped from a good battery I would suspect the battery first as when you jump start you usually clamp onto the same terminals that the original battery uses which would suggest the terminal connections are OK. However they are worth removing and the mating surfaces checked for cleanliness and tightness as is the earth lead from battery to engine at the engine end. Another possibility is loose or dirty connections to the starter motor or a failing starter motor and an auto electrician should soon be able to diagnose. If the battery terminals get quite warm or hot during engine cranking that would suggest a bad contact. If it starts OK when the engine is warm and has recharged the battery that again suggests failing battery, and if it still fails to restart after running for say half an hour or so and all connections are clean and secure then either you may have a duff battery or a duff alternator. If you have a voltmeter check the battery voltage with the engine running as you are looking for a figure of about 14.4 ish volts. If not, an auto electrician would soon be able to tell you. At four years old and given the intermittent use that motorhome batteries often have to endure it is quite possible that the battery is on it's way out too. An auto electrician will be able to test it under simulated load and advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-31 5:47 PM If it won't start on it's own battery but will when jumped from a good battery I would suspect the battery first as when you jump start you usually clamp onto the same terminals that the original battery uses which would suggest the terminal connections are OK. However they are worth removing and the mating surfaces checked for cleanliness and tightness as is the earth lead from battery to engine at the engine end. Another possibility is loose or dirty connections to the starter motor or a failing starter motor and an auto electrician should soon be able to diagnose. If the battery terminals get quite warm or hot during engine cranking that would suggest a bad contact. If it starts OK when the engine is warm and has recharged the battery that again suggests failing battery, and if it still fails to restart after running for say half an hour or so and all connections are clean and secure then either you may have a duff battery or a duff alternator. If you have a voltmeter check the battery voltage with the engine running as you are looking for a figure of about 14.4 ish volts. If not, an auto electrician would soon be able to tell you. At four years old and given the intermittent use that motorhome batteries often have to endure it is quite possible that the battery is on it's way out too. An auto electrician will be able to test it under simulated load and advise. If it starts from a jump start then I fail to see how Richards suggestions 2, 3 or 4 could be correct, however I would suspect his first suggestion is correct. Despite you saying the battery has tested OK I would suspect this is the problem, Although easy to check I would doubt their is anything wrong with the earth strap on a four year old van. Go to a good battery supplier with the van and get them to check and fit a new battery if required. Keep in mind you cannot check a flat battery, it must be charged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-31 5:47 PM If it won't start on it's own battery but will when jumped from a good battery I would suspect the battery first as when you jump start you usually clamp onto the same terminals that the original battery uses which would suggest the terminal connections are OK. Tracker, If you're attaching the Negative jump lead to the Negative battery post on the flat battery then I'm afraid you're doing it wrong :'( You should always attach the Negative jump lead to a metal component ON THE ENGINE and never directly to the battery as if you cause a spark when connecting it may result in an explosion. (And you should always attach the Positive lead first and disconnect last before anyone picks me up on that). Therefore if Wendy is jump starting correctly she will be bypassing the Engine/Gearbox to Chassis earth lead and so the van will start. Hope that all makes sense, Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 As Brian has advised, instructions in the vehicle's handbook regarding jump-starting should be followed religiously. If there are no instructions (or you haven't got a handbook), then general advice is provided here: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/breakdown_advice/using-jumpleads.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Apparently the OP knows how to jump start, or at least has had it done for her, that is not her problem. My advice considering the OP states she is not mechanically minded is to get it looked at by someone that knows what they are doing to determine the root cause of her non start vehicle, as most of us know you are dealing with some very high amperages, better to be safe than sorry, and it's hardly the time of year to be lying on your back under a van especially with limited knowledge. It does sound like an earth strap problem, and someone who knows their stuff will sort it in less time than it takes to make a cup of tea, or should do ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Come on gents, we are all missing the point. Someone needs to ask where this fair maiden Wendy lives then one of us can go and sort it for her. (And the answer is not "in the Wendy House". Happy new thingey C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-01-01 9:53 AM As Brian has advised, instructions in the vehicle's handbook regarding jump-starting should be followed religiously. If there are no instructions (or you haven't got a handbook), then general advice is provided here: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/breakdown_advice/using-jumpleads.html Thanks Derek, Step 2 says exactly what I was trying to say... 2. Then use the black lead to connect the negative terminal of the good battery to a suitable earthing point on the engine or chassis of the other vehicle. This earthing point must be away from the battery and fuel system. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Guys, she doesn't want to know how to jump start, read her post again ! ! ! I'm not sure that your address is the wisest thing to put on an open internet forum, but Mrs Curry can PM me if she lives in Tywyn, West Wales, I'll then go take a look. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 1footinthegrave - 2012-01-01 11:30 AM Guys, she doesn't want to know how to jump start, read her post again ! ! ! Actually 1Foot, Derek and I where NOT trying to teach her how to jump start but more why, if jump starting correctly, this would prove that the vehicles Engine to Body earth was faulty. Please re-read my first post and you will see that this is what I was saying to Wendy. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Keithl - 2012-01-01 12:54 PM 1footinthegrave - 2012-01-01 11:30 AM Guys, she doesn't want to know how to jump start, read her post again ! ! ! Actually 1Foot, Derek and I where NOT trying to teach her how to jump start but more why, if jump starting correctly, this would prove that the vehicles Engine to Body earth was faulty. Please re-read my first post and you will see that this is what I was saying to Wendy. Keith. If the vehicle is an X250, then the AA advise is wrong, there are specific conection points for jump starting. Conecting to these will not prove anything, conecting a jump lead from the batery to the engine is not an easy check either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Surely with self confessed " limited skills" the OP would be best advised to get it checked out professionally which is all I am trying to say, as is usual on here, posters may have greater knowledge than the OP, but you know what they say " a little knowledge blah blah" Mrs Curry, I still urge you to err on the side of caution, and get some friendly local garage to take a look and possibly save yourself a load of grief,. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 1footinthegrave - 2012-01-01 1:36 PM Surely with self confessed " limited skills" the OP would be best advised to get it checked out professionally which is all I am trying to say, as is usual on here, posters may have greater knowledge than the OP, but you know what they say " a little knowledge blah blah" Mrs Curry, I still urge you to err on the side of caution, and get some friendly local garage to take a look and possibly save yourself a load of grief,. :-) +1 I decided to look at the batery(not having seen it yet :$ ), had a quick check of owners manual for any warnings, thought "thats odd didn't think the batery was there!", and I was correct, even Fiat can't direct you to the correct place to find the batery *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Since there has been no follow-up, it seems rather pointless arguing over who has the biggest gonads. :-) All the information, and cautions, required are in the first five posts. If the earth strap is still in place (they have been known to come adrift, Henry), and it won't start from the battery but starts with correctly connected jump leads then, as suggested, it is probably the starter battery. I doubt that after only 4 years, but it may have been abused, so am inclined to the disconnected earth strap theory. However, unless and until we get some feed back, all else seems a bit pointless. BTW, I hear she lives nearest to Clive! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 "a bit pointless" as is often the case Brian, nothing much changes even with a New Year.................and glad to see your post came in at number 4, the rest of us wasting our time then.................. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 We had a 2,8 Ducatto with a similar aged battery that exhibited similar problems, The battery was tested by the old "go and Glow" tongs and new electrical "no Damage" wizardry, both said the the battery was OK, or at least showed green on the scales. Battery back in, same problem, Tried an older battery, that was on the "orange" band (Not good, but not bad ! The engine turned over and started. It would seem that whlist the battery was showed OK, the battery could not deliver sufficient current fast enough to turn the engine over to start it. Unfortunately, it was a new battery. (I was offered th older battery, but declined, Just delaying the inevitable !) Rgds Edit. Just to add (unlessI have missed something in my New Year haze !. You say the battery Fiat is 4 years old, the battery could be up to two years older. Sitting around in the chassis, before build etc. If the battery is new, I have missed a trick and apologise *-) HNYear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 1footinthegrave - 2012-01-01 5:14 PM "a bit pointless" as is often the case Brian, nothing much changes even with a New Year.................and glad to see your post came in at number 4, the rest of us wasting our time then.................. :-S Not personal (though your's is :-(), and not a claim for my post over anyone else's, but just an observation that the "my idea is better than yours" posts after that point seemed unlikely to be of much assistance to the OP. Why argue over opinion, when the OP wants information? Is that so hard to understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 As Wendy has not been seen nor heard from on here for over 24 hours now perhaps her van has started OK and she has gawn off into the sunset with her Peter Pan after all - may they live happily ever after in Never Never Land! As for all you pedants and nit pickers out there - better watch out there's a Wendy about - and she's probably heading your way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-01-01 6:07 PM 1footinthegrave - 2012-01-01 5:14 PM "a bit pointless" as is often the case Brian, nothing much changes even with a New Year.................and glad to see your post came in at number 4, the rest of us wasting our time then.................. :-S Not personal (though your's is :-(), and not a claim for my post over anyone else's, but just an observation that the "my idea is better than yours" posts after that point seemed unlikely to be of much assistance to the OP. Why argue over opinion, when the OP wants information? Is that so hard to understand? Not that hard to understand if my offer of help if she lives in my neck of the woods was of any use to her, but according to you she should not have read that far down, and I would have thought that would have been of great assistance, sorry mate, but you really do come across as the most pretentious poster on so many occasions in your postings. Happy New Year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 So much for the season of goodwill then! Normal service has been resumed it seems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 Tracker - 2012-01-01 6:46 PM So much for the season of goodwill then! Normal service has been resumed it seems? Come on Tracker, me or him with the lack of good will, after all I did wish him a happy new year,........................ ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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