Rayjsj Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Robinhood - 2012-01-30 8:49 AM olley - 2012-01-30 8:40 AM The DVLA said in their OPINION if it met all the trailer regulations it was classed as a trailer. Harmonisation rules? try taking a radar detector into France. B-) Ian .....or driving in the majority of the EEC at 17, on a valid, UK-issued, full driving licence. (In much of the EEC, minimum driving age is 18, and is enforced, even for UK licence holders) Wow, I didn't know THAT. I am a LONG way past 17.... but in my Youth, (17 with a Full UK licence) I took my 'Souped-up' Ford Anglia Van, on a camping trip to Paris, ( lovelorn crush on French exchange student...) Never got stopped, and was totally unaware that I had been travelling 'unlawfully' , I even got a 'Green Card' Insurance. Surely, That particular Law, would be covered by the 'If it's legal in country of origin, it has to be legal here' EU LAW ? Ray Mind you we were'nt even in the Common Market then, let alone the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 WHY is It ? that so many folk are so violently opposed, (to the point of irrationality !) to the concept of towing a small vehicle behind a motorhome ?? now, i don't own one, BUT perfectly see the rationality of using one, and see it as attractive (to have mobility with 'clogging up' small villages,car parks etc.,). The Manufacturers seem to be selling lots of them, and appear to believe they are legal. certainly in the UK anyway. If the Issue is Safety (and I can see no other reason for their illegality) then it should be 'spelled out' as to what the issues are ? as for 'reversing problems' I know of many,many road vehicles that would be unable to reverse without 'de-coupling' lots of farm machinery that travel on the road for a start. In the USA they have no such 'Hang ups' and the practise is completely 'Normal'. If Europe doesn't want Tourists towing small cars behind their Motorhomes, then Fine, I won't go there. But thats just Me. I think we should be 'Encouraging UK Industry' by buying and using UK manufactured 'A-Frames' Maybye, one day the EU will come to it's senses, but i wouldn't lay money on it (ohh too late, the government already has, for me......) ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukhymerman Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Hi all you doom merchants - think you must be on the trailer manufactuers pay roll The UK Department of Transport issued their original guidlines in 1985 and have renewed this on many occasions the latest that I know of being in 2006 It is very clear from their guidance notes on compliance that they support the use of A frames as long as they meet the requierment for being identified as a trailer namely two warning triangles, braking, lighting and the fitting of the towing vehicles registration plate Leaving the European roaming question to one side for the moment - this set up meets all the tests from the previous posting as long as it is connected to and showing the number plate of the towing vehicle i.e. does not need road tax, mot or sorn We then get down the the thorny question of towing aboard which has and is well established in many other Countries throughout the world - America being the pioneers but many others as well We joined the EC some time ago for better or worse with the whole essence of being the free movement of goods and the harmonisation of individual Countries rules to facilitate this The EC has set up a body called SOLVIT to iron out problems in the functioning of the EU's single market. Their brief is to look at the missapplication of rules encountered by those wanting to exercise their Single Market rights - perhaps this is one for them I for one will still be towing throughout Europe as is my right until told otherwise and I would hope many others will else we fail without a fight regards ukhymerman ukhymerman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Nice to see all the A frame users are going to ignore BGD posting and stand on their rights, well good luck. I can just see you now, a Spanish cop with a gun stuck up your nose demanding you pay a fine and uncouple the car. You standing by your 'rights' waving a piece of paper at him showing him it is allowed. Dragged of to jail still protesting, in court demanding a refund etc, etc. Look just use some sense buy a caravan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 I give up. Really I do. OK then. Everything I've ever posted on the subject of the utterly clear illegality of vehicle towing in Spain using any form of coupling, including A-Frames, is totally wrong. The Police will in fact never stop you. Never. They will never ever fine you heavily on the spot. And they will never ever force you to un-couple there and then, and drive your motor car and motorhome separately. It has all been a bad dream, and you will wake up refreshed, and once again wielding that unchallengeable and divine God-given right, simply because you are British, to flout the traffic laws of all other country with total impunity if you don't personally like those laws; and tow a car using your A-Frame in any and every other country in the world, totally regardless of the traffic laws of any other country. Clearly, some of the posters here are massively better qualified and have a much clearer understanding of UK and Spanish law than I. I humbly bow to your fantastically well researched and understood specialist legal knowledge; clearly you know that your arguments, expressed in English slowly and loudly, together with the waving of arms will prevail against any and every Johnny Foreigner Police Officer and/or Judge. How could I have so utterly stupid as to try to help others by actually advising otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 ukhymerman - 2012-01-30 11:26 AM Hi all you doom merchants - think you must be on the trailer manufactuers pay roll Rayjsj WHY is It ? that so many folk are so violently opposed, (to the point of irrationality !) to the concept of towing a small vehicle behind a motorhome ?? Actually, nobody is against (and certainly not violentlyopposed to) the use of A-frames or the towing of a small vehicle behind a motorhome.I/They however, are concerned about the legality of them, simple as that. Personally I don't give a monkeys what you do or believe, just don't bleat about it when you get fined or worse, because numerous people have tried to put across extremely credible evidence to support their claims. ukhymerman, you stand by your statement that a motorvehicle not needing tax, insurance or mot if connected to another vehicle by an A-Frame, then put your money where your mouth is, I've put up my offer of £100 to charity, all you have to do is carry out the required test, i.e. tow an un-insured, untaxed and un-mot'd car around for 6 months without getting pulled. Simple isn't it. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-01-30 11:03 AM Robinhood - 2012-01-30 8:49 AM olley - 2012-01-30 8:40 AM The DVLA said in their OPINION if it met all the trailer regulations it was classed as a trailer. Harmonisation rules? try taking a radar detector into France. B-) Ian .....or driving in the majority of the EEC at 17, on a valid, UK-issued, full driving licence. (In much of the EEC, minimum driving age is 18, and is enforced, even for UK licence holders) Wow, I didn't know THAT. I am a LONG way past 17.... but in my Youth, (17 with a Full UK licence) I took my 'Souped-up' Ford Anglia Van, on a camping trip to Paris, ( lovelorn crush on French exchange student...) Never got stopped, and was totally unaware that I had been travelling 'unlawfully' , I even got a 'Green Card' Insurance. Surely, That particular Law, would be covered by the 'If it's legal in country of origin, it has to be legal here' EU LAW ? Ray Mind you we were'nt even in the Common Market then, let alone the EU. I simply don't understand (and patently neither does Bruce) why people continue to insist that EU harmonisation means 'If it's legal in country of origin, it has to be legal here" across the board. Numerous obvious examples exist of where this isn't true; individual state laws apply; and you cannot legally do what you can lawfully do in the UK. A number have already been quoted. In the particular case of driving licenses and their legal applicability (about which there is considerably less "greyness" as to their legal status in the UK than A-frames), you certainly ARE NOT allowed legally to drive in most EU states at 17, even if you hold a full UK license (and never have been - except perhaps in two exceptional circumstances in the last century ;-) ) The UK government advice on this is clear, and may be read at: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/DG_10023103 ...an extract from which reads Visiting another country You may use your GB licence for driving in other European Community/European Economic Area [EC/EEA] member states. However, you should note that while the minimum age for driving a car in GB is 17 individual member states may apply their own age restrictions for entitlements. Whilst it is true that the EU is harmonising law and standards in a number of areas, it does not apply across the patch. To implement harmonisation, the EU first issues a directive covering a specific area of law, and the individual states then have to enact the appropriate harmonisation into their own law - within a timescale agreed by the EU states as a whole, and not necessarily all at the same time. These deadlines can sometimes be very long (and at least a few appear to have been postponed sine die). In the case of harmonisation, the individual countries still remain responsible for the enforcement. (In other circumstances, and via the appropriate conventions and treaties (not directives), certain laws can be implemented at EU level - this is not "harmonisation" - and ultimately, these EU laws can be enforced at the EU courts. An example is the UK signing up to the European Convention on Human Rights, and also enacting a Human Rights Act for the UK, largely in line with the convention. Whilst much is dealt with in the UK courts, because we have signed up to the overriding convention (again, not a directive) ultimate judgement lies with the EU courts, to which appeals may be, and are, made). As regards your other post, I don't see much evidence that "many folk are so violently opposed, (to the point of irrationality !) to the concept of towing a small vehicle behind a motorhome" It appears more to me that many folk are simply violently opposed to the assertion that doing so is legal in all circumstances, when, having examined the evidence, it would appear most likely that it is not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mrs Batty Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 BGD - 2012-01-28 11:11 PM I noticed the updated advice on the British Consulate website, which now accurately describes the situation as it has always been under Spanish law:- "Towing a car with a motorhome. Towing a car behind a motor home using an A-frame is illegal in Spain and you will be fined for using one." Source: http://ukinspain.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-spain/cars Discuss.......... ;-) I am not a lawyer and do not pretend to understand fully international law, but this appears to be VERY VERY simple and even Ray Charles could see this. TOWING A CAR WITH A ''A'' FRAME IN SPAIN IS NOT ALLOWED ! Waving a British passport, carrying a very old globe still with most of the known world painted red, wearing an England football shirt and only eating fish & chips if you enture further than Dover DOES NOT MATTER ! The law in other countries is different from ours full stop !!!!! ????? Just because if affects some people when they LEAVE our country and OUR laws is surley part and parcel of experiencing other places ? Some countries have no drinking laws - on religeous grounds but its their law. Just beacause most of our country appears to get totally ratted every Friday & Saturday night doesnt mean we could go there and do the same. We seem to understand (obviously moan about it as we are Bristish and we do this if something does not suit us) things like this but then cant understand other laws for other places ? We try and do homework, accept the LAWS and taylor out traveling to this when going to other countries. We can do the British 'thing' and do what ever we like with our stiff upper lip but would suffer the penalties if the particular country if caught. '' You pays your money & takes your choice'' The Bs :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-01-30 11:25 AM WHY is It ? that so many folk are so violently opposed, (to the point of irrationality !) to the concept of towing a small vehicle behind a motorhome ?? Ray Who are those people Ray ? It doesn't seem to me to apply to anyone on this thread. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olley Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Not me, I think its the best and safest way to tow a car, but that don't make it legal though. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Do not be misled by an earler reference to a fine of 40 euros! A friend of mine was fined 200 euros before Xmas on the way home with a smart car on an A frame behind his autotrail. He had to unhitch and his wife drove it to the French border. The documents provided by the manufacturer were shown to the Spanish Police to no avail. They have just returned to Spain and she has driven through Spain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Me neither, I think it's the most convenient way to tow a car, but that doesn't make it legal. Personally we use a trailer, but that's because motorbikes are a different kettle of fish altogether, however you can get an A-Frame type device for motorbikes, but lets not complicate things eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 ukhymerman - 2012-01-30 11:26 AM Hi all you doom merchants - think you must be on the trailer manufactuers pay roll The UK Department of Transport issued their original guidlines in 1985 and have renewed this on many occasions the latest that I know of being in 2006 It is very clear from their guidance notes on compliance that they support the use of A frames as long as they meet the requierment for being identified as a trailer namely two warning triangles, braking, lighting and the fitting of the towing vehicles registration plate Leaving the European roaming question to one side for the moment - this set up meets all the tests from the previous posting as long as it is connected to and showing the number plate of the towing vehicle i.e. does not need road tax, mot or sorn We then get down the the thorny question of towing aboard which has and is well established in many other Countries throughout the world - America being the pioneers but many others as well We joined the EC some time ago for better or worse with the whole essence of being the free movement of goods and the harmonisation of individual Countries rules to facilitate this The EC has set up a body called SOLVIT to iron out problems in the functioning of the EU's single market. Their brief is to look at the missapplication of rules encountered by those wanting to exercise their Single Market rights - perhaps this is one for them I for one will still be towing throughout Europe as is my right until told otherwise and I would hope many others will else we fail without a fight regards ukhymerman ukhymerman So you say, but why should anyone take your advice? Are you possibly a lawyer, specialising in motoring law? As before, facts please, we've had all the assertions. Just paste over the documents you rely on, or post a link to them, so that we can all benefit from reading them at first hand. With all due respect, you could be absolutely anyone, with no appropriate knowledge of the law, merely taking a malicious delight in encouraging others to get themselves fined. So please, the facts. On the matter of the towed car not needing an MoT, VED, or SORN, is that really what you meant to say? If so, I am completely at a loss to understand how you arrive at that conclusion, but am persuaded that you are no legal expert. If it is registered as a car (in its V5C registration document), in must have VED, MoT if appropriate, and insurance, or it must be SORNd. If it is SORNd, it must not be on the road, whether or not on tow, unless being taken for pre-booked test or repair. Vehicles are only legally admissible to other EU states if they comply fully with the legal requirements of the country in which they are registered. Those legal requirements, for UK registered vehicles are, VED, MoT if appropriate, and insurance. SORN, in this case, is irrelevant, since the vehicle cannot legally be taken onto the road, and so abroad, on its wheels while SORNd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 920 views 37 replies in 2 days...........is this a record? As for me I've always adopted "The when in Rome" approach........ :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Er, I don't actually own an A-Frame, and I certainly will not use one in (mainland) Europe, when I do get one, IF i get one. I was only observing 'other folks' reaction to the concept, and how vehemently some people deride their use......ie 'if you want to be mobile...buy a Caravan'. (a far more dangerous 'device' when it comes to Road Safety, in MY experience). I don't particularly care what Road traffic Laws the europeans choose to inflict on their Citizens, as I won't be 'crossing the channel' to find out. Just as long as they don't inflict them on us. I am against ANY law that doesn't make sense, Surely traffic laws are thought up to Protect Road users, and others, and to ensure that traffic flows correctly. This one (A -Frame Law in Europe) does neither. It appears to be a 'Law' for 'Law's sake' serving no other purpose than to give French and Spanish police an excuse for pulling 'Mr British Tourist' over. It may be illegal in Europe, but does it make Sense ?? NO. ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-01-30 6:55 PM This one (A -Frame Law in Europe) does neither. It appears to be a 'Law' for 'Law's sake' serving no other purpose than to give French and Spanish police an excuse for pulling 'Mr British Tourist' over. It may be illegal in Europe, but does it make Sense ?? NO. ;-) Ray I think they probably apply the law to everybody, not just Mr British Tourist, that's being a tad paranoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Today I have asked the Caravan Club's technical help service to give me a ruling on the legality of towing with an A-Frame and when I get a reply I will let you all know here in this thread. I am not challenging BGD's news at all, but I would like to know if there are problems in countries other than Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 spospe - 2012-01-30 9:28 PM Today I have asked the Caravan Club's technical help service to give me a ruling on the legality of towing with an A-Frame and when I get a reply I will let you all know here in this thread. I am not challenging BGD's news at all, but I would like to know if there are problems in countries other than Spain. With due respect, why would you ask the caravan club, they do not set laws in European countries, and they are not an authority on law and will only give you an opinion. However, along the same lines I contacted VOSA (who are responsible for implimenting and upholding UK road transport laws) via a helpline section available through our O licence. If and when they reply, I will post it on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 spospe - 2012-01-30 9:28 PM Today I have asked the Caravan Club's technical help service to give me a ruling on the legality of towing with an A-Frame and when I get a reply I will let you all know here in this thread. I am not challenging BGD's news at all, but I would like to know if there are problems in countries other than Spain. Yes, in France it is also illegal to tow one vehicle with another, unless at low speed, in an emergency, with hazard flashers operating, and with an homologuated rigid tow pole. That is what Retread24800's post says, here: http://tinyurl.com/7ec6pdv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 donna miller - 2012-01-30 9:43 PM With due respect, why would you ask the caravan club, they do not set laws in European countries, and they are not an authority on law and will only give you an opinion. However, along the same lines I contacted VOSA (who are responsible for implimenting and upholding UK road transport laws) via a helpline section available through our O licence. If and when they reply, I will post it on here. Because Donna they publish Caravan Europe Vol 1 and 2 which covers not only caravan sites throughout mainland Europe, but also offers many pages of practical advice on touring in most of those countries. It seems to me that a useful bit of information to include would be an up to date review of what is allowed on the subject of A-Frames. In fact I think that inclusion of such advice / information on the use of A-Frames is now something which members should be able to expect in all future editions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 spospe - 2012-01-30 10:53 PM donna miller - 2012-01-30 9:43 PM With due respect, why would you ask the caravan club, they do not set laws in European countries, and they are not an authority on law and will only give you an opinion. However, along the same lines I contacted VOSA (who are responsible for implimenting and upholding UK road transport laws) via a helpline section available through our O licence. If and when they reply, I will post it on here. Because Donna they publish Caravan Europe Vol 1 and 2 which covers not only caravan sites throughout mainland Europe, but also offers many pages of practical advice on touring in most of those countries. It seems to me that a useful bit of information to include would be an up to date review of what is allowed on the subject of A-Frames. In fact I think that inclusion of such advice / information on the use of A-Frames is now something which members should be able to expect in all future editions. The Caravan Club's advice on A-frame towing throughout Europe is shown here: http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/planning-your-holiday/overseas-holiday-planning/travel-essentials/general-legal-requirements There is a specific 'It's prohibited' warning in the Spain "Country Introduction" part of the Caravan Europe 1 book. As far as I'm aware, nothing has changed to cause the CC to alter its advice/warnings. (I've always thought that the giveaway regarding the questionable legality of A-frame towing in Europe is that no manufacturer of A-frames has ever offered to put their money where their mouth is and guarantee to indemnify purchasers of their systems against prosecution.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 donna miller - 2012-01-30 9:43 PM ....However, along the same lines I contacted VOSA (who are responsible for implimenting and upholding UK road transport laws) via a helpline section available through our O licence. If and when they reply, I will post it on here. When this was being discussed not so long back("A Frame fines"?),just out of curiosity,I did contact VOSA and they just responded by saying that it was nothing to do with them and that I needed to contact DVLA?!??? :-S This is copied from their email response.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Mr ****** Thank you for your email enquiry dated 12th October 2011 concerning the above. Unfortunately VOSA do not handle enquiries of this type. You need to contact the DVLA on telephone 0300 790 6801 and request information leaflet INF30. This will outline the current towing regulations. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (..by the way..I didn't bother chasing any further ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-01-31 9:51 AM spospe - 2012-01-30 10:53 PM donna miller - 2012-01-30 9:43 PM With due respect, why would you ask the caravan club, they do not set laws in European countries, and they are not an authority on law and will only give you an opinion. However, along the same lines I contacted VOSA (who are responsible for implimenting and upholding UK road transport laws) via a helpline section available through our O licence. If and when they reply, I will post it on here. Because Donna they publish Caravan Europe Vol 1 and 2 which covers not only caravan sites throughout mainland Europe, but also offers many pages of practical advice on touring in most of those countries. It seems to me that a useful bit of information to include would be an up to date review of what is allowed on the subject of A-Frames. In fact I think that inclusion of such advice / information on the use of A-Frames is now something which members should be able to expect in all future editions. The Caravan Club's advice on A-frame towing throughout Europe is shown here: http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/planning-your-holiday/overseas-holiday-planning/travel-essentials/general-legal-requirements There is a specific 'It's prohibited' warning in the Spain "Country Introduction" part of the Caravan Europe 1 book. As far as I'm aware, nothing has changed to cause the CC to alter its advice/warnings. (I've always thought that the giveaway regarding the questionable legality of A-frame towing in Europe is that no manufacturer of A-frames has ever offered to put their money where their mouth is and guarantee to indemnify purchasers of their systems against prosecution.) Thanks Derek, I should have looked at the CC website in more detail than I did. However, if they write back with more detail, then I will pass it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 spospe - 2012-01-30 10:53 PM donna miller - 2012-01-30 9:43 PM With due respect, why would you ask the caravan club, they do not set laws in European countries, and they are not an authority on law and will only give you an opinion. However, along the same lines I contacted VOSA (who are responsible for implimenting and upholding UK road transport laws) via a helpline section available through our O licence. If and when they reply, I will post it on here. Because Donna they publish Caravan Europe Vol 1 and 2 which covers not only caravan sites throughout mainland Europe, but also offers many pages of practical advice on touring in most of those countries. It seems to me that a useful bit of information to include would be an up to date review of what is allowed on the subject of A-Frames. In fact I think that inclusion of such advice / information on the use of A-Frames is now something which members should be able to expect in all future editions. But Michael, the Caravan Club already warns its members of the illegality of using A-Frames abroad. I quote from their website:- "Every country has its own traffic and driving regulations, we have tried to cover most of these with the information below, however, more detailed information can be found in our Caravan Europe guide, volumes one, two and three. A-Frames If you would like to tow a car behind a motor caravan in Europe, our advice would be to use a trailer with all four wheels of the car off the ground. Although most countries in Europe do not have a specific law banning A-frames they do have a law which prohibits 'a motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle', and it is down to the local police how they interpret their own laws. We have been contacted by a small number of members who have been stopped and fined for using an A-frame (particularly in Spain), and the fines range from €42.00 to €250.00. We have also been contacted by members who have travelled thousands of miles in Europe and not had any problems at all, however, if you want 100% guarantee that you are legal, you need to use a trailer with all four wheels of the car off the ground." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 BGD I have just had a reply from the Caravan Club reiterating everything that you have said above, so yes you are 100% right as regards Spain. In other countries things are less clear-cut Caveat emptor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.