pepe63xnotuse Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 This thread had turned into something resembling Monty Python's "What have the Romans ever done for us?" sketch... .."..yeah...so *apart from*...The Spanish Government!...the British Consulate!...The Caravan Club!...and experience from those who've been fined!....Just why can't I take my A Frame to Spain?.." (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 pepe63 - 2012-01-31 2:33 PM This thread had turned into something resembling Monty Python's "What have the Romans ever done for us?" sketch... .."..yeah...so *apart from*...The Spanish Government!...the British Consulate!...The Caravan Club!...and experience from those who've been fined!....Just why can't I take my A Frame to Spain?.." (lol) (lol) But you can, you can. If you feel the poor thing has got a bit pale, and needs its tan topping up, of course you can take it. They are not illegal, or banned, in Spain, they are totally legal - just so long as you don't use one for towing a car on a public road. That's all! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookback Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I have just come back from staying at La Torretta campsite at Benidorm. On the site there were 6 motorhomes that had towed cars on A frames to the site without hindrance from the police. There was even a french registered motorhome towing a car on an a frame. There is too much "hot air" being expended on this site about the illegalities of A framing. Yes I do know of a motorhomer last year who was stopped by the Guardia and fined 60 euros but when I asked him if he had requested a receipt he said he had`nt. I challenge MMM to undertake a journey to Spain in a motorhome, towing a car on an A frame and report their experiences on the journey. This way we may explode a few myths that currently abound. I now retire with tin hat on. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 So is this..dare I say it..finally put to bed now? :-S (..bet we still get the "..yeah but they're safer than a trailer,so why aren't they legal..?" ) edit: Oops!..missed Ian's post..so it looks like no!...it hasn't been put to bed... (lol) (..although not sure what validity there is in posting along the lines of "..I've seen people on site,who got away with breaking a law,therefore that law doesn't exist.." :-S ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 lookback - 2012-01-31 6:00 PM I have just come back from staying at La Torretta campsite at Benidorm. On the site there were 6 motorhomes that had towed cars on A frames to the site without hindrance from the police. There was even a french registered motorhome towing a car on an a frame. That makes it all right then? There is too much "hot air" being expended on this site about the illegalities of A framing. Yes I do know of a motorhomer last year who was stopped by the Guardia and fined 60 euros but when I asked him if he had requested a receipt he said he had`nt. Nobody has said A frames are illegal anywhere, its towing one vehicle behind another without the use of a prorietary trailer that's illegal in Spain and France, to name but two. I challenge MMM to undertake a journey to Spain in a motorhome, towing a car on an A frame and report their experiences on the journey. This way we may explode a few myths that currently abound. Why challenge someone else to do it? If you are so convinced of your legal standing why don't you go do it? I now retire with tin hat on. D. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookback Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I strongly object to some person adding additional matter to my letter!!! I did not state at the end of the first paragraph. "That makes it alright then" I did not state the comment contained at the end of my 2nd paragraph "Nobody has said - to name but two" I tow on an A Frame and have used the A Frame on three seperate journeys to Spain without incident. So "D" who I presume added the comments, what do you say to that!!!! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 lookback - 2012-01-31 6:00 PM I have just come back from staying at La Torretta campsite at Benidorm. On the site there were 6 motorhomes that had towed cars on A frames to the site without hindrance from the police. There was even a french registered motorhome towing a car on an a frame. There is too much "hot air" being expended on this site about the illegalities of A framing. Yes I do know of a motorhomer last year who was stopped by the Guardia and fined 60 euros but when I asked him if he had requested a receipt he said he had`nt. I challenge MMM to undertake a journey to Spain in a motorhome, towing a car on an A frame and report their experiences on the journey. This way we may explode a few myths that currently abound. I now retire with tin hat on. Ian I'm sorry Ian, but you really do need that tin hat! IMO, you are merely seeking to place will above logic. Have you never exceeded the speed limit? And when you did, did you immediately get stopped and fined? No? Well then, there is no need to observe the speed limit, is there, because you didn't get fined. So following the same line of chop-logic, MMM drives to Spain towing a car on an A frame. Two possible outcomes. 1 They get nicked = conclusive proof that towing a car with a motorhome is illegal in Spain? 2 They do not get nicked = conclusive proof that towing a car with a motorhome is NOT illegal in Spain? The relevance of your acquaintance's non-receipt to the matter in hand escapes me, for what was he stopped? A framing, or not A framing? Ah, no, wait, I get it now. Because there was no receipt, there was no fine. No proof, so it didn't really happen. How obvious, silly me. :$ My humble apologies. You really do have to understand that this is about what is legal in Spain. Towing one vehicle with another, on public roads, is illegal in Spain, and the relevant law has even been posted on here in both Spanish, and English. That is Spanish law. So, the use of an A frame to tow a car on the road breaks that Spanish law. Does everyone who does so get fined? Of course they don't: does everyone who breaks any law get apprehended? So, my point about speeding, above. Then, does the fact that not all law breakers get apprehended, prove the non-existence of the law? If I understand you correctly, that is what you believe. It is not for me to criticise other people's beliefs: some, I gather, believe that the earth has been visited by martians, and I wish them well. In the same vein, I wish you well! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 lookback - 2012-01-31 7:00 PM I strongly object to some person adding additional matter to my letter!!! I did not state at the end of the first paragraph. "That makes it alright then" I did not state the comment contained at the end of my 2nd paragraph "Nobody has said - to name but two" I tow on an A Frame and have used the A Frame on three seperate journeys to Spain without incident. So "D" who I presume added the comments, what do you say to that!!!! Ian Ian..although it's what happened,I don't think Dave actually meant to "insert" additional comments into your post(..I think they were meant as "responses",although maybe they didn't really stand out as clear as he would've liked... :-S ) Having said that,I will agree with Brian and repeat my earlier comment.... ..Just because you've witnessed someone who has got away with breaking a law,doesn't then mean that law doesn't exist... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 lookback - 2012-01-31 7:00 PM I strongly object to some person adding additional matter to my letter!!! I did not state at the end of the first paragraph. "That makes it alright then" I did not state the comment contained at the end of my 2nd paragraph "Nobody has said - to name but two" I tow on an A Frame and have used the A Frame on three seperate journeys to Spain without incident. So "D" who I presume added the comments, what do you say to that!!!! Ian I say two things to that, firstly calm down, I didn't murder your cat or run off with your daughter. My additions were simply an attempt to respond to the three individual points you made and I stand by my comments. My apologies if my choosing to observe the laws of whatever country I mightbe in offends your sense of right to do as you please. D. (That's D as in the initial of my first name which is clearly posted at the top of every posting I make). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 lookback - 2012-01-31 6:00 PM I have just come back from staying at La Torretta campsite at Benidorm. On the site there were 6 motorhomes that had towed cars on A frames to the site without hindrance from the police. There was even a french registered motorhome towing a car on an a frame. There is too much "hot air" being expended on this site about the illegalities of A framing. Yes I do know of a motorhomer last year who was stopped by the Guardia and fined 60 euros but when I asked him if he had requested a receipt he said he had`nt. I challenge MMM to undertake a journey to Spain in a motorhome, towing a car on an A frame and report their experiences on the journey. This way we may explode a few myths that currently abound. I now retire with tin hat on. Ian You are callenging MMM to commit a criminal act, let me think, just why would they want to do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Ian..I bet that tin hat of your's is makin' one helluva row... (lol) (....twing!..patwang!...ping!..twang!... (lol) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbotham Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Oo, hasn't this generated a load of internet traffic. Personally, I have no issue with the Spanish authorities. Don't care what they think, wouldn't tow my car over there (or for that matter anywhere else outside UK nowadays). Under their transposition of EU Directives it could well not be legal, and that's entirely their own affair. However the constant references to towing in the UK being a grey area do rile me. Whyso grey? Apparently it's not been tested in court. Such nonsense misunderstands English law. The law doesn't state what is legal, but what is illegal. So in the context with towing "trailers", it states which regulations must be complied with for the trailer not to be illegal. Why would anyone believe that something must be tested in court to prove that it's legal? It's tantamount to saying that because there's never been a court case to demonstrate that wearing a bowler hat is legal, it must be a grey area because it's never been tested in court. Please supply me details of an a-framed car with proper braking system ever being challenged by the police to prove the legality of the system. I have to drive past a VOSA testpoint to get to the motorway from my home, and to put the motorhome back in storage. So I've only been past it 300 times so far. Strangely they're never interested in my a-framed car. Why? Because under VOSA, the police & DoT's interpretation of the regulations, it's not illegal over here. End of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Ros' As far as the UK is concerned,I assume the "grey area" arises because A Frame set-ups are,for want of a better term, "pretending" to be trailers in order to be legally towed,yet(I assume!)at the same time still having to fulfil motor vehicle legal requirements(mot/tax/insurance etc)... ..Although there's something for an A framer to have a go at...Try towing the car around without tax/mot/insurance and if stopped,see how you get on when you use the defense that "it's a trailer".. ..a silly scenario,I know..but hence the "grey area".. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 This thread has saved me a whole pile of money so thanks to all. I was considering an A frame - for my 2CV. As a "classic car, lots of owners do use these in this country for rallies etc and they are specifically made & are cheap. However I would have had to have a tow bar fitted as well. Could even have taken it abroad - until now! So no A frame for me. Seems to me that some are playing a form of Russian Roulette where only one chamber is empty. Things & laws do change though. In the late 60's I bought an old Harley Davidson 750 with sidecar (£15.00!) and had to get it from Orpington across South London. No Tax or MOT. My Father made me phone the Police & ask if it was legal to tow it. The desk Sergeant stated that yes it was quite legal to tow it & that whoever was steering it didn't have to have a licence AS LONG AS the tow rope didn't break. If it did, then they would throw the book at me. We put it on a trailer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Rosbotham - 2012-01-31 9:56 PM Oo, hasn't this generated a load of internet traffic. Personally, I have no issue with the Spanish authorities. Don't care what they think, wouldn't tow my car over there (or for that matter anywhere else outside UK nowadays). Under their transposition of EU Directives it could well not be legal, and that's entirely their own affair. However the constant references to towing in the UK being a grey area do rile me. Whyso grey? Apparently it's not been tested in court. Such nonsense misunderstands English law. The law doesn't state what is legal, but what is illegal. So in the context with towing "trailers", it states which regulations must be complied with for the trailer not to be illegal. Why would anyone believe that something must be tested in court to prove that it's legal? It's tantamount to saying that because there's never been a court case to demonstrate that wearing a bowler hat is legal, it must be a grey area because it's never been tested in court. Please supply me details of an a-framed car with proper braking system ever being challenged by the police to prove the legality of the system. I have to drive past a VOSA testpoint to get to the motorway from my home, and to put the motorhome back in storage. So I've only been past it 300 times so far. Strangely they're never interested in my a-framed car. Why? Because under VOSA, the police & DoT's interpretation of the regulations, it's not illegal over here. End of story. These are links to two earlier threads http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25123&start=1 http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=24074&posts=17 and a statement from the Department for Transport is given here http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml I dread to go down this road again, but it's not any negative illegality of 'A-framing' in the UK that's significant as far as overseas use of the practice is concerned - it's the lack of positive legality. The DfT spokesman Alan Mendelson stated that they believed A-framing is legal in the UK PROVIDED THAT that the relevant braking and lighting requirements are met. But it's plain from earlier comments in his statement that the DfT had strong reservations that those braking requirements could be met using the simple overrun-braking type of arrangement generally employed on A-frames. (Yes - I know there are other systems, but most A-framers rely on inertia braking!) Acknowledging that the UK police, VOSA, DfT or UK motor insurance providers don't view A-framing as intrinsically 'unsafe' and, consequently, have no interest in challenging the legality or otherwise of the practice, and that no motorcaravanner has (as far as I'm aware) being prosecuted in this country for doing it, the question still remains as to whether a UK Court would rule that a car being towed behind a motorhome via an inertia-braked A-frame complies with the trailer braking regulations in force in the UK. This is where the 'grey area' lies. This country has no regulations relating to wearing bowler hats, so legality/illegality is not an issue. But it does have regulations relating to trailers and, if motorcaravanners contend that a fully-functional car can tranform into a trailer whan towed on an A-frame, then those regulations need to be complied with. If I were a police authority in a country that had a law prohibiting one vehicle towing another (except in an emergency), and a UK A-framer's defence against being fined was that the practice was legal in the UK, I'd be asking for details of that legality. And, if the reply was that "It's not illegal back home", my response would be "Well it is over here - pay up." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 What intriques me is how the A frame manufactures all seem to claim their Aframes and accompanying braking system meets trailer requirements. Yet when I look at requirements for trailers they require a few things not all Aframes meet. For example red tiangles on rear of 'trailer'. Not all provide this, in fact not found any who do. So are they relyingo n users providing, yet they provide velcro or clips for a number plate. Next is the handbrake. Requirement seems to be for a handbrake which is operated by cable or other mechanical connections and is operated by the brake away cable. Some provide braking by means of a cable connected to the pedal but this means it is hydfraulically operated and not mechanical so find this a little confusing. Then there is the hydraulic coupling which also allows fo operation of the brakes, the point being a damper must be fitted. The better Aframne companies fit one, bit many do not have a hydraulic or otherwise damper fitted to the tow couplling. Next is the tow ball coupling must be retained from hiotting the ground if a decouple occurs whislt driving. This seems to be from a chain coupled to the towing vehicle and must me short enough to prevent the tow coulping hitting the ground whilst also providing some directional control (steering) for the trailor in case of decoupling whilst moving. Then there are systems which leave eyelets attached to the front of the towed vehicle which I would think are not allowed when drivimng the vehicle as it is a projection. Maybe they are removable on all systems which makes sense, but I do wonder about the addition of a bar acroos the front altering the crash properties of the car. Next, I am surpised at the range of apparent quality of design of some Aframes ranging from very substantial bits of kit to lightweight Aframes which do not look very strong and no bar fitted to car but just eylets using existing tow points. The frames hardly look strong enough for the job. They might tow OK, but what happend if you have an emergency stop, can see the frame collapsing or bending if the breaks failed to operate in the towed car. I have alreadty read a story of someone having teh tow points ion Smart Car start to fail at the welds ( posts on these forums) The point is, have all the requirements to become a trailer really been met? I do not think so, and most I have found y certainly have not been tested to any particular standard, so are they safe from failure? I am not against Aframe towing if proved safe and I assume form the many thousand who tow and not had an accident or breakaway as a comsequence proves this, but what about the chap who had car plough into his rear ( mentioned in earier post by someone) or the poor chap who had a fire last year when new, and other fires which have occured. As to legalities, I think you are all aware Aframes are exploiting a grey area or a hole in the 'system' and so if someone comes alomg and closes those holes and is no longer legal, or you get stopped and penalised for using, then you just have to accept this. Another requitement is steering comtrol of the trailer in reverse and auto reverse brakes. None of the mechanically operated braking systems seem to have this. The one which uses 'brake buddy' presumably does, but many do not. Presumably real trailers have this built into the wheels brakes, but I know little about how this is achieved.. I better shut up, but just wanted to air my thoughts.Everyone else seems to be! But, good luck to thois who want to Aframe towing in this country and abroad and hope this all gets sorted out and you can enjoy towing without worry of being stopped. But as a following driver, i rarely stay for long behind a towed car, or a trailer or caravan for that matter. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 To follow on from Brambles post - I wonder also about the legality (or otherwise) even in the UK of those very solid, sticking-out, A-Frame bolt-eyes that stick out from the front bumper of the towed car (sorry, "Trailer"), when it is unhitched, and then SHAZZAM!! - magically transforms before your very eyes into a car again. 'Cos once you've transformed it from "trailer" to car, simply by unhitching a metal frame from it's front bumper (do you guys really - I mean really - actually believe that it changes from one to the other by the addition/removal of a wedge shaped metal bracket?) it's a car again, and thus has to comply with the Construction & Use regulations for cars. Now it's a car again surely there's something in the Construction & Use Regulations (and/or MOT test?) which forbids the addition of sharp, pointy or steely things to the front of your car that would seriously add to the injuries to a pedestrian in an accident. Isn't there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I wholeheartedly agree with both Derek and Jon above. The question of legality/illegality seems to cause confusion to many. It is, however, yet again, well explained by Derek above. A number of folk seem to be getting confused over the Vienna convention, which provides that vehicles, or vehicle combinations, that are legal in their country of registration, must be deemed legal in other EU states. What seems to escape them, is that this deals with the vehicle, not with how it is being used. It is the use of one vehicle to tow another that is illegal in France and Spain, not the vehicles themselves. So, there is no quarrel with the motorhome itself, the towed car itself, or the A-frame itself, the quarrel is with the act of towing the one with the other, and whether an A-frame is used to do this, or a length of rope, is irrelevant. It is the act of towing a vehicle that is illegal. Doubters should refer back to the two abstracts from legislation (one Spanish, one French) that have already been posted for confirmation. I also agree strongly with Jon's analysis of the requirements for trailer legality, and whether, and to what extent, a towed car can comply, and share his doubts over whether some of the claims made by some A-frame manufacturers are entirely "safe". One manufacturer produces a document claimed to prove the legality of the A-frame under EC legislation. I have seen this document, and checked the references cited at source, and can only say that I think the author of the claim has been very seriously misled as to what the document actually refers to. These objections are not raised because I, or I believe anyone else who shares my reservations, have some anti-A-frame stance. I have no axe to grind, being completely uninclined to want to tow a car with our motorhome by any means, whether A-frame or trailer. So, I neither want, nor do I object to others who do, tow a car. Neither do I have any interest in playing the "barrack-room lawyer" in order to scare others off. I can see, and well appreciate, all the arguments that are advanced as to the convenience of an A-frame over a trailer for towing a car, and I agree that a car towed on an A-frame is potentially more stable than a car loaded on a trailer. So, the claims that those who harbour reservations are "anti A-frame" merely trivialises the issue. The case does not arise. There is a serious point here: my interest is that people who read this forum should get good, sound, reliable information, insofar as contributors are able to provide it. On this issue in particular, far too many post what is at best misinformation born of wishful thinking: the product of praying in aid any argument that appears to remove the pitfalls of using an A-frame outside the UK, without seriously considering whether their argument actually does anything of the kind. I have yet to read any contribution seeking to show that A-frame towing in France and Spain is, should be, or can be claimed to be, legal, that amounts to any more than the poster merely putting their hands over their ears and shouting la-la-la-la at the top of their voice. All of the arguments have been put forward over years of strings, and none hold water. The disagreeable fact is that the use of an A-frame to tow a car with a motorhome (or any other vehicle unauthorised to tow on public roads) contravenes Spanish and French laws that specifically ban the towing of one vehicle with another - except under circumstances that are not relevant to the use of an A-frame. If you do this in either country, you break the laws of those countries. That you may get away with it most of the time does not prove that the law does not exist, it merely proves that you can get away with it. If you are stopped and made to de-couple the car without being fined it does not prove no fine is payable, just that you met an understanding policeman, who is using his discretion. If you are stopped, made to de-couple and fined, it does not prove the policeman is corrupt, it merely proves that you have met a policeman who is not prepared to exercise discretion in your favour. If he gives you a receipt for the fine, as he is legally obliged to do, he is doing his job properly. If he does not give a receipt, he probably is corrupt, but he is then using the law to line his own pocket. In the absence of the law, he would have no grounds to stop you, so the question of the fine would not arise. So, if you decide to chance towing with an A-frame in France or Spain that is fine by me, just as it is fine by me if you decide to ignore speed limits, weight restrictions, or stop signs. Just do so knowing that what you are doing is, in those countries, illegal, and stop trying to persuade the uninformed, the innocent and the gullible, that this is untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 BGD - 2012-02-01 10:56 AM To follow on from Brambles post - I wonder also about the legality (or otherwise) even in the UK of those very solid, sticking-out, A-Frame bolt-eyes that stick out from the front bumper of the towed car (sorry, "Trailer"), when it is unhitched, and then SHAZZAM!! - magically transforms before your very eyes into a car again. 'Cos once you've transformed it from "trailer" to car, simply by unhitching a metal frame from it's front bumper (do you guys really - I mean really - actually believe that it changes from one to the other by the addition/removal of a wedge shaped metal bracket?) it's a car again, and thus has to comply with the Construction & Use regulations for cars. Now it's a car again surely there's something in the Construction & Use Regulations (and/or MOT test?) which forbids the addition of sharp, pointy or steely things to the front of your car that would seriously add to the injuries to a pedestrian in an accident. Isn't there? Bruce I agree with you entirely about not using an A-frame in Spain. We were advised many years ago by one of the motoring associations, can't remember whether the AA or RAC, not to tow in Spain and stopped doing so immediatley despite previously passing umpteen Gardia at the side of the road. We unhitched in France and drove separately. However, I am not sure about your argument about "Now it's a car again surely there's something in the Construction & Use Regulations (and/or MOT test?) which forbids the addition of sharp, pointy or steely things to the front of your car that would seriously add to the injuries to a pedestrian in an accident." My little Fiat passed the MOT in England and now since 2004 has passed the equivalent test in France. The brake attachment at the front seems very maleable and unlikely to cause further injury. Anyway as I travel solo now I do not use the A-frame, mainly because of the reversing problem. So, this critical thread about A-frames is obviously not the best place to say that it is for sale!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Hi Patricia I think Bruce has in mind the quite substantial looking eye-bolts that the A-frame attaches to at the front of the car. Some variants seem to project in front of the bumper, and to be fixtures. It may be that a zealous policeman would pounce on them, but as they don't even seem to pounce on bull-bars, I doubt it. However, anyone injured in a collision with a car so equipped, some of whose injuries were attributed to them, might have grounds for claiming against the driver where otherwise they would not. They must alter the risk to pedestrians relative to the un-modified vehicle, so negating to some extent the now mandatory "pedestrian friendly" design of all road vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 O/k then ponder this. At what point is a car not a mechanically propelled vehicle (covered by traffic laws)?. If it's when the engine is disabled or removed, then it stands to reason that it would become a trailer if hitched behind another vehicle. Thus being perfectly legal to be towed anywhere and not need tax or mot. Which begs the question, how could the spanish fine someone for towing a trailer. I'd love to remove the engine from a car and tow it in spain and see what they make of that. What actually constitutes a vehicle?. This is from Wikipedia "A vehicle (from Latin: vehiculum[1]) is a device that is designed or used to transport people or cargo. Most often vehicles are manufactured, such as bicycles, cars, motorcycles, trains, ships, boats, and aircraft.[2] Vehicles that do not travel on land often are called craft, such as watercraft, sailcraft, aircraft, hovercraft, and spacecraft. Land vehicles are classified broadly by what is used to apply steering and drive forces against the ground: wheeled, tracked, railed, or skied. ISO 3833- 1977 is the standard, also internationally used in legislation, for road vehicles types, terms and definitions[3]" I don't see anything about an engine in there. So a trailer could also be a vehicle, as it is used to carry goods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 peter - 2012-02-01 7:35 PM O/k then ponder this. At what point is a car not a mechanically propelled vehicle (covered by traffic laws)?. If it's when the engine is disabled or removed, then it stands to reason that it would become a trailer if hitched behind another vehicle. Thus being perfectly legal to be towed anywhere and not need tax or mot. Which begs the question, how could the spanish fine someone for towing a trailer. I'd love to remove the engine from a car and tow it in spain and see what they make of that. What actually constitutes a vehicle?. This is from Wikipedia "A vehicle (from Latin: vehiculum[1]) is a device that is designed or used to transport people or cargo. Most often vehicles are manufactured, such as bicycles, cars, motorcycles, trains, ships, boats, and aircraft.[2] Vehicles that do not travel on land often are called craft, such as watercraft, sailcraft, aircraft, hovercraft, and spacecraft. Land vehicles are classified broadly by what is used to apply steering and drive forces against the ground: wheeled, tracked, railed, or skied. ISO 3833- 1977 is the standard, also internationally used in legislation, for road vehicles types, terms and definitions[3]" I don't see anything about an engine in there. So a trailer could also be a vehicle, as it is used to carry goods. I've no problem with the principle that, if you were to modify a car to the extent that it plainly can no longer perform basic essential car-related functions - eg. you removed the motor, gearbox, seats, etc. - turning it into a sort of car-shaped closed trailer, then it might be logical to expect UK, French, Spanish, etc. police authorities not to treat the result as a car. But UK motor caravanners are not A-frame towing stripped-out vehicles that cannot be driven independantly, but are towing what are unarguably fully-functional cars. If you tow a car with 10 bags of cement in the boot it does not automatically become a 'trailer'. If you tow a trailer that looks like a car with 10 bags of cement on it, it does not automatically become a car. If you modified a car to the extent that it lost its accepted 'car' functionality, then it could become a trailer. If you modified a trailer to give it the full functionality of a car, then it could become a car. This is semantic twaddle though as, if UK motorcaravanners towed what are universally acknowledged as being trailers, not what are universally acknowledged as being cars, there would be no endless quibbling over compliance (or not) with national towing regulations. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. If it looks like a trailer, tows like a trailer, brakes and reverses like a trailer, and has the functionality of a trailer, then it is going to be considered a trailer. If it looks like a car, drives like a car, steers, brakes and reverses like a car, and has the functionality of a car, then it is going to be considered a car. (I'm surprised you haven't mentioned an engine-less Amphicar - then you could bamboozle a Spanish policeman by suggesting that it's simultaneously a car, a trailer and a boat.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Brambles - 2012-02-01 9:55 AM so are they safe from failure? I am not against Aframe towing if proved safe and I assume form the many thousand who tow and not had an accident or breakaway as a comsequence proves this, but what about the chap who had car plough into his rear ( mentioned in earier post by someone) or the poor chap who had a fire last year when new, and other fires which have occured. . I think these cases are a bit misleading, the first one is 'heresay' , 'A friend of mine' in the other posting, and from the description, 'going over a bump in the road' the A-Frame de-coupled. points to either the coupling failing, or not being 'latched' properly at the begining of the journey. This is not unique to A-Frames, Caravans or trailers(carrying a car ?) will detatch if not 'Latched', I witnessed (personally) one detatch last year, luckily still onsite and not on the road. The Fires you mention relates (I assume ?) to the 'Smart' automatic car, which if not put into 'neutral' correctly (with the engine running/ignition on). creates a dangerous 'drag' in the gearbox, which, if then Towed ends up in a Fire. Just leaving the handbrake on a Caravan, can create similar problems. SO, not just A-Frame related. I am very interested JUST in the safety of these devices, NOT the law in greater Europe, which I accept does not allow them. Does anyone Else have any 'Safety related' concerns about A-Frames ? (before I buy one) The Reversing issue does not really concern me, as numerous legally towed vehicles are extremely difficult to reverse, if not impossible. (the smaller they are the harder they are to reverse). I am finding this dicussion very informative. Like; I will only get one that fits directly to the car chassis and not the 'towing eyes' ,only get one with the Electronic 'brake buddy' that operates via the towing vehicles brakes, and keeps the vacuum in the 'Toad' car active. Anything else i need to know ? ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-02 11:53 AM I think these cases are a bit misleading, the first one is 'heresay' , 'A friend of mine' in the other posting, and from the description, 'going over a bump in the road' the A-Frame de-coupled. points to either the coupling failing, or not being 'latched' properly at the begining of the journey. To clarify the occurrence, the incident was not caused by the A frame uncoupling. It acted as a hinge where attached to the car, so that when the front of the car bounced, it rose up and hit the rear of the motorhome several feet above the ground level, i.e. it rose by the length of the A frame. It may be that modern A frame designs would not permit this to happen. I would not describe this event as 'hearsay' as it happened to the person who told me about it. Hardly the same as repeating an unfounded rumour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 JamesFrance - 2012-02-02 1:11 PM To clarify the occurrence, the incident was not caused by the A frame uncoupling. It acted as a hinge where attached to the car, so that when the front of the car bounced, it rose up and hit the rear of the motorhome several feet above the ground level, i.e. it rose by the length of the A frame. Blimey!..that'd put the wind up ya,wouldn't it... 8-) ..although I suppose,when hitting a "bump" that hard,it would probably've also made a bit of a mess with a trailer or caravan... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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