British Consulate confirms that A Frame towing in Spain is illegal

[Rayjsj]

JamesFrance - 2012-02-02 1:11 PM

 

Rayjsj - 2012-02-02 11:53 AM

 

I think these cases are a bit misleading, the first one is 'heresay' , 'A friend of mine' in the other posting, and from the description, 'going over a bump in the road' the A-Frame de-coupled. points to either the coupling failing, or not being 'latched' properly at the begining of the journey.

 

To clarify the occurrence, the incident was not caused by the A frame uncoupling. It acted as a hinge where attached to the car, so that when the front of the car bounced, it rose up and hit the rear of the motorhome several feet above the ground level, i.e. it rose by the length of the A frame.

 

It may be that modern A frame designs would not permit this to happen.

 

I would not describe this event as 'hearsay' as it happened to the person who told me about it. Hardly the same as repeating an unfounded rumour.

 

Sorry, i didn't mean to say that you were 'Rumour spreading', just that it didn't happen to 'You'. and you didn't actually witness it, not saying that it didn't happen, and exactly as you describe.

After looking at some of the A-Frames I am interested in, I can't see how that could happen, to them.

Mind you, that must have been a 'Hell of a Bump in the Road' and at some speed.

Still interested in any other 'Safety Issues' related to A-Frames ? Ray

[Derek Uzzell]

The 'fires' have nothing to do with Smart Car gearboxes. They invariably result from the braking mechanism used (normally a cable-operated over-run system) failing to allow the towed car's brakes to free completely.

 

The effect is exactly the same as if one drove a car with an incorrectly-adjusted or faulty cable-operated handbrake mechanism - the brake-pads/linings rub on the disks/drums producing heat. This usually won't result in too much damage - cooked disks, smoking melting wheel-bearing grease, etc. but, in extreme cases (as with the Armitages event) there's the potential for a serious fire.

 

If the towing vehicle's tow-ball is low mounted and the towed car's A-frame attachment-points are high mounted, then it's not difficult to envisage the 'hinging' scenario James mentions. For maximum safety, you need the tow-ball height to be above the attachment-point height.

[spospe]

Given the legal ambiguities which remain, has anyone had an insurance claim rejected following an accident involving an A-Frame, on the ground that its use was illegal?

[JamesFrance]

I never enjoyed towing any trailer because it is difficult to know if a problem arises when you are in a towing vehicle. When towing a small yacht behind a motorhome it seemed helpful to see the trailer wheels in the mirrors, but a car will usually be too narrow to be able to do that, so I think I would always wonder what was going on behind.

 

Presumably it would be illegal to put SWMBO in the car when travelling to smell burning?

 

(Please don;t take that suggestion seriously, it is snowing here in Benidorm today, so I am stuck indoors with nothing better to do.)

 

 

[pepe63xnotuse]

spospe - 2012-02-02 3:30 PM

 

Given the legal ambiguities which remain, has anyone had an insurance claim rejected following an accident involving an A-Frame, on the ground that its use was illegal?

 

That's a very good point...

(...I'm sure it must've been asked before..but I must've missed it..)

 

How DO folk get on,when sorting out insuring an A frame set-up..? :-S

[ips]

the Motor Home and Smart car have matching reg.numbers.Dave.

 

So do our MH and scooter...........so there :-D

[bob b]

JamesFrance - 2012-02-02 3:34 PM I never enjoyed towing any trailer because it is difficult to know if a problem arises when you are in a towing vehicle. When towing a small yacht behind a motorhome it seemed helpful to see the trailer wheels in the mirrors, but a car will usually be too narrow to be able to do that, so I think I would always wonder what was going on behind. Presumably it would be illegal to put SWMBO in the car when travelling to smell burning? (Please don;t take that suggestion seriously, it is snowing here in Benidorm today, so I am stuck indoors with nothing better to do.)

With a rear view camera fitted, you'll be aware of whats happening behind the motorhome.

[Patricia]

JamesFrance - 2012-02-02 3:34 PM Presumably it would be illegal to put SWMBO in the car when travelling to smell burning? (Please don;t take that suggestion seriously, it is snowing here in Benidorm today, so I am stuck indoors with nothing better to do.)

 

There was one European country which insisted that a towed car had someone in the driving seat but I forget which one (may have been Germany?).

 

If it is only snowing you are lucky - minus 12 degrees here (in the Auvergne) at 6pm and still falling. Only 15 in the house with the central heating blasting away!

 

bob bWith a rear view camera fitted, you'll be aware of whats happening behind the motorhome.

 

We always had a piece of ribbon or coloured guaze tied to the car's aerial so at least we could check that it was still there. However, it kept being stolen!

[Brian Kirby]

peter - 2012-02-01 7:35 PM

 

O/k then ponder this. At what point is a car not a mechanically propelled vehicle (covered by traffic laws)?. If it's when the engine is disabled or removed, then it stands to reason that it would become a trailer if hitched behind another vehicle. ......................

Straws, Peter, straws! :-) The car is a car, because its "Euro-harmonised" V5C says it is a car. You are in Spain, so you should have the V5C with you, as required by European law, so go and look. That never changes.

 

What the DfT said is that when towed on an A-frame a car could be considered a trailer, not that it becomes a trailer. That was not a legal judgement, it was the opinion of a civil servant. It is of relevance in UK only, because the person concerned is a British civil servant, with no jurisdiction whatever outside the UK. It is a get-around, a fiddle, a somewhat specious argument, to make using an A-frame on UK roads arguably permissible, based on the practice not being banned under current UK legislation. However, this concerns only towing, not the vehicles themselves, or the means by which they are towed.

 

To prove his opinion one way or other, there will have to be specific UK legislation, or a court case that would establish a comon law precedent. However, even the latter would not be conclusive, because the decision could be reversed by another case, or on appeal, unless and until appealed to the Law Lords for determination. Somehow, I think Hell will freeze first! :-)

 

When we come to France or Spain his opinion becomes totally irrelevant because, apart from its being based on a liberal interpretation of UK law, it cannot supplant French or Spanish laws that actually ban one vehicle (meaning vehicle as defined under either Spanish, or French, law - not as defined in Wikipedia :-)) from towing another.

 

Have another glass of glou-glou, enjoy your break, and try to stay warm! :-D

[Dr Dave]

Here’s a obscure thought when the car that is attached to the Motorhome has become by magic of an ‘A’ frame a trailer, it is no longer be classed as a motor vehicle. That is what I assume as it cant be two things at once 'can it'. So therefore as I am led to believe you can only store 20 Litres of fuel in 2 x 10 litre tanks in anything other than a motor vehicle fuel tank you must be breaking the law by towing a trailer with fuel in the tank.

 

"The quantity which may be kept, without notifying the Licensing Authority

(Trading Standards) is the amount of petrol contained in the fuel tank of

the motor vehicles or engine and not more than 2 x 10 litres metal

containers or 2 x 5 litres plastic containers.

 

What do you think?

Dave

 

[Mel B]

As some claim that a car becomes a trailer when fitted with an A-Frame, separate brake mechanisme, triangular reflectors etc ... what does a caravan become when it has a motor-mover fitted so it is then able to propel itself ..... 8-) *-)

[Brambles]

A Motorbike --- Self propelled two wheeled vehicle.

[Keithl]

Mel B - 2012-02-02 9:49 PM

 

As some claim that a car becomes a trailer when fitted with an A-Frame, separate brake mechanisme, triangular reflectors etc ... what does a caravan become when it has a motor-mover fitted so it is then able to propel itself ..... 8-) *-)

 

You mean like this Mel,

.

 

Keith.

[malc d]

Mel B - 2012-02-02 9:49 PM

 

As some claim that a car becomes a trailer when fitted with an A-Frame, separate brake mechanisme, triangular reflectors etc ... what does a caravan become when it has a motor-mover fitted so it is then able to propel itself ..... 8-) *-)

 

 

If it's propelling itself, I would say it becomes lethal.

 

 

;-)

[Derek Uzzell]

Dr Dave - 2012-02-02 8:46 PM

 

Here’s a obscure thought when the car that is attached to the Motorhome has become by magic of an ‘A’ frame a trailer, it is no longer be classed as a motor vehicle. That is what I assume as it cant be two things at once 'can it'. So therefore as I am led to believe you can only store 20 Litres of fuel in 2 x 10 litre tanks in anything other than a motor vehicle fuel tank you must be breaking the law by towing a trailer with fuel in the tank.

 

"The quantity which may be kept, without notifying the Licensing Authority

(Trading Standards) is the amount of petrol contained in the fuel tank of

the motor vehicles or engine and not more than 2 x 10 litres metal

containers or 2 x 5 litres plastic containers.

 

What do you think?

Dave

 

How about an articulated fuel-tanker with multi-thousand litres of fuel in the 'trailer' that's attached to the tractor-unit? Legal or illegal?

[Dr Dave]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-03 10:09 AM

 

Dr Dave - 2012-02-02 8:46 PM

 

Here’s a obscure thought when the car that is attached to the Motorhome has become by magic of an ‘A’ frame a trailer, it is no longer be classed as a motor vehicle. That is what I assume as it cant be two things at once 'can it'. So therefore as I am led to believe you can only store 20 Litres of fuel in 2 x 10 litre tanks in anything other than a motor vehicle fuel tank you must be breaking the law by towing a trailer with fuel in the tank.

 

"The quantity which may be kept, without notifying the Licensing Authority

(Trading Standards) is the amount of petrol contained in the fuel tank of

the motor vehicles or engine and not more than 2 x 10 litres metal

containers or 2 x 5 litres plastic containers.

 

What do you think?

Dave

 

How about an articulated fuel-tanker with multi-thousand litres of fuel in the 'trailer' that's attached to the tractor-unit? Legal or illegal?

 

Just keeps getting darker Grey. This area. Although on the subject of fuel tankers they are probably type approved and i suppose they do inform the licencing authorities.

I was just trying to demonstrate by looking outside the normal arguments of the "is it a car or is it a trailer" that you could come up with any argument you want. And if we can come up with arguments the judiciary certainly could!

Dave

 

[Rosbotham]

How DO folk get on,when sorting out insuring an A frame set-up..? :-S

 

Been away for a few days but to answer your question. There are a series of companies that specifically provide car insurance policies tailored to cover the car when being used a-framed behind a motorhome. Example, Comfort, cover is fully comp even when towed.

 

Drop user Locksmith a line, he had an incorrectly fitted a-frame cause his brakes to bind (I'll say "allegedly" to cover myself), and insurer paid out without question, only (ongoing) question being whether they pursue a claim against the a-frame fitter.

 

Many people, I believe, use a standard auto policy, in which case cover won't be provided when being towed via that policy, but the motorhome policy will cover any trailer...including a-framed cars...3rd party.

 

As an aside, having had both a-framed cars and carried car on trailers, I found it far more problematic finding insurance that would cover the car fully comp when on the trailer. I think many people simply assume they're covered and could be in for a nasty surprise were they to have an accident.

[Derek Uzzell]

An article in the current issue (March 2012)of MMM - "Get the Right Policy" (Pages 217-222) includes advice on towing a trailer or car with a motorhome.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Thanks for those responses...

 

We don't have an A frame but its' something we *may* be looking towards,as the OH is looking to change her car for something smaller this year(..possible toad material)...

 

(..although in all honesty,as we're a couple of decades from retiring age(..so no "long-terming" for us yet)and with our style of MH usage,meaning we're never really in one place that long anyway,I'm not sure we'd be using a toad to it's full "potentia"l ... :-S )

[spospe]

spospe - 2012-02-02 3:30 PM

 

Given the legal ambiguities which remain, has anyone had an insurance claim rejected following an accident involving an A-Frame, on the ground that its use was illegal?

 

Given the lack of reply to my question above, then presumably the answer must be that in the eyes of UK insurers there is no problem.

 

Now we have a can of tasty worms to open, because as has been stated by BGD, the practice of towing on an A-Frame IS illegal in Spain. Does this mean that UK insurers will insure for illegal acts when travelling in other countries?

[Derek Uzzell]

spospe - 2012-02-07 9:21 AM

 

spospe - 2012-02-02 3:30 PM

 

Given the legal ambiguities which remain, has anyone had an insurance claim rejected following an accident involving an A-Frame, on the ground that its use was illegal?

 

Given the lack of reply to my question above, then presumably the answer must be that in the eyes of UK insurers there is no problem.

 

Now we have a can of tasty worms to open, because as has been stated by BGD, the practice of towing on an A-Frame IS illegal in Spain. Does this mean that UK insurers will insure for illegal acts when travelling in other countries?

 

No, you are misunderstading how insurance works.

 

If an insurance provider agrees to insure, say, a valuable shotgun against damage/theft, then the policy documentation will specify the conditions relating to that insurance. This may demand that the owner of the shotgun keep it in a certain type of gun cabinet at home, not leave in an unattended vehicle, etc. But the policy won't insure the owner against being prosecuted for using the weapon illegally - shooting an irritating neighbour, for example. Similarly for ordinary car insurance that covers the vehicle but not, say, the vehicle being driven with impunity at 150mph in the UK.

 

A UK insurance provider may happily insure an A-frame-towed car, but the policy won't cover any fines awarded for towing the car in a country where the national law forbids it. The 'toad' is insured - it's the motorhome driver that's acting illegally and the policy won't cover that. If an accident occurred in Spain, then the question of A-frame illegality might arise as far as insurance-related damages were concerned, but that would be for the insurance companies involved to argue over.

[JamesFrance]

I wouldn't trust any insurance company to pay up if they can find an excuse to avoid doing so. It will all depend on the detailed small print in the policy document.

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-07 10:07 AM

 

spospe - 2012-02-07 9:21 AM

 

spospe - 2012-02-02 3:30 PM

 

Given the legal ambiguities which remain, has anyone had an insurance claim rejected following an accident involving an A-Frame, on the ground that its use was illegal?

 

Given the lack of reply to my question above, then presumably the answer must be that in the eyes of UK insurers there is no problem.

 

Now we have a can of tasty worms to open, because as has been stated by BGD, the practice of towing on an A-Frame IS illegal in Spain. Does this mean that UK insurers will insure for illegal acts when travelling in other countries?

 

No, you are misunderstading how insurance works.

 

If an insurance provider agrees to insure, say, a valuable shotgun against damage/theft, then the policy documentation will specify the conditions relating to that insurance. This may demand that the owner of the shotgun keep it in a certain type of gun cabinet at home, not leave in an unattended vehicle, etc. But the policy won't insure the owner against being prosecuted for using the weapon illegally - shooting an irritating neighbour, for example. Similarly for ordinary car insurance that covers the vehicle but not, say, the vehicle being driven with impunity at 150mph in the UK.

 

A UK insurance provider may happily insure an A-frame-towed car, but the policy won't cover any fines awarded for towing the car in a country where the national law forbids it. The 'toad' is insured - it's the motorhome driver that's acting illegally and the policy won't cover that. If an accident occurred in Spain, then the question of A-frame illegality might arise as far as insurance-related damages were concerned, but that would be for the insurance companies involved to argue over.

 

Derek

 

I understand your reasoning. I understand that a person can indeed drive to Spain (or anywhere else) and when there commit motoring offences, e.g. speeding, or drink driving etc, but these offences are discretionary in that it is easy to avoid them altogether for the whole time of the visit.

 

Drive to Spain with an A-Frame and you are shouting out that you are going to break the law, even before you cross the channel. Once you cross the border into Spain then the offence is absolute.

 

I am sure that a UK insurance company would not sanction the use of an MOT failed vehicle, or one which was in an obviously dangerous state, either in the UK or anywhere else. On that basis I ask again are UK insurance companies offering cover for crimes? Surely they should point out to any customer the fact that using a 'toad' in Spain is illegal?

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

You don't HAVE to go to Spain, in the same way that I don't HAVE to drive at 150mph.

 

My insurance company doesn't advise me not to drive at illegal speeds, or not to leave my headlights off in countries that insist I have them on while driving, so why should my insurance company warn me that, having agreed to insure me to tow a car on an A-frame, that I should not do it in Spain because it would be illegal?

 

Anyway, why pick on Spain, as there are other European countries where UK-motorhome A-framing is equally illegal? In fact, I'd hazard a guess that there are few, if any, Continental European countries that don't have national regulations that prohibit this practice.

[spospe]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-07 7:01 PM

 

You don't HAVE to go to Spain, in the same way that I don't HAVE to drive at 150mph.

 

My insurance company doesn't advise me not to drive at illegal speeds, or not to leave my headlights off in countries that insist I have them on while driving, so why should my insurance company warn me that, having agreed to insure me to tow a car on an A-fram, that I should not do it in Spain because it would be illegal?

 

Anyway, why pick on Spain, as there are other European countries where UK-motorhome A-framing is equally illegal? In fact, I'd hasard a guess that there are few, if any, Continental European countries that don't have national regulations that prohibit this practice.

 

If the use of an A-Frame is illegal, why do insurance companies cover it? You cannot, in English law have a legally binding contract for an illegal act.