pepe63xnotuse Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 spospe - 2012-02-08 9:06 AM ....If the use of an A-Frame is illegal, why do insurance companies cover it?.. ..I would've thought the simply answer would be,that when used in a country where their use is illegal,then they WON'T cover you...surely? Unless I've missed something..?? :-S (..of cause ,that's not to say they won't take your money of you though..and then wheel out the small print if/when needed.. ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I despair over this... I can't see any logical (or moral) conflict between a UK insurance provider agreeing to insure a UK motorhome A-framer and simultaneously being aware that the practice is prohibited in certain other countries. It's also plain to me that any arguments I make to support that view will be a (further) waste of my time. Comfort Insurance provides A-frame-related policies and has been prepared in the past to comment on this forum when insurance-related questions have arisen. There are a couple of 'blog' entries here: http://www.comfort-insurance.co.uk/blog/?s=a-frame If anyone has difficulty reconciling the concept of A-frame 'illegality' outside the UK with the provision of A-frame insurance by UK providers, can I suggest they contact Comfort Insurance and ask for expert advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Derek I am insured with Safeguard and so I made an enquiry with them this morning (should have done this days ago) and guess what? You are quite right! The 'toad' is covered for third party risks when being towed in any country listed in my policy and Safeguard state that the legallity, or otherwise is bye-the-bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 spospe - 2012-02-08 11:20 AM ...The 'toad' is covered for third party risks when being towed in any country listed in my policy and Safeguard state that the legallity, or otherwise is bye-the-bye. ..But one would assume that they wouldn't have "listed" countries, in which A Frame/vehicle towing is illlegal anyway?.. Best check those documents,eh? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 spospe - 2012-02-08 11:20 AM Derek I am insured with Safeguard and so I made an enquiry with them this morning (should have done this days ago) and guess what? You are quite right! The 'toad' is covered for third party risks when being towed in any country listed in my policy and Safeguard state that the legallity, or otherwise is bye-the-bye. You should of known better, you don't get to be old hat at it by not knowing what he has tucked in his brain :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Its only when it all goes wrong that people say I wished I'd of listened :-( *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 spospe - 2012-02-08 11:20 AM Derek I am insured with Safeguard and so I made an enquiry with them this morning (should have done this days ago) and guess what? You are quite right! The 'toad' is covered for third party risks when being towed in any country listed in my policy and Safeguard state that the legallity, or otherwise is bye-the-bye. Are you saying that the car is insured by Safeguard because this is the important consideration. Most motorhome insurers allow towing but do not necessarily insure the towed vehicle. When we towed with an A-frame (still for sale!) the car was insured at first by an insurance company advertising as being good for women. Unfortunately I have forgotten the name of the company but I insisted on having it in writing that the car was covered fully comp whilst being towed. We then moved the insurance to Comfort who, as mentioned, covered the car fully comp. We used to tow in Spain, passing lots of policemen without problems, until notified by the RAC that the car could be impounded. This was probably in 2002/3. After that we always stopped before the border and drove separately. Incidentally the car is now carrying French plates and I have enquired about insurance whilst on tow. Although this request did not raise eyebrows, | am still awaiting an answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I think this says it all really This is a peer support forum. Those that know aren't on here and those that are on here don't know. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Patricia - 2012-02-08 11:39 AM spospe - 2012-02-08 11:20 AM Derek I am insured with Safeguard and so I made an enquiry with them this morning (should have done this days ago) and guess what? You are quite right! The 'toad' is covered for third party risks when being towed in any country listed in my policy and Safeguard state that the legallity, or otherwise is bye-the-bye. Are you saying that the car is insured by Safeguard because this is the important consideration. Most motorhome insurers allow towing but do not necessarily insure the towed vehicle. When we towed with an A-frame (still for sale!) the car was insured at first by an insurance company advertising as being good for women. Unfortunately I have forgotten the name of the company but I insisted on having it in writing that the car was covered fully comp whilst being towed. We then moved the insurance to Comfort who, as mentioned, covered the car fully comp. We used to tow in Spain, passing lots of policemen without problems, until notified by the RAC that the car could be impounded. This was probably in 2002/3. After that we always stopped before the border and drove separately. Incidentally the car is now carrying French plates and I have enquired about insurance whilst on tow. Although this request did not raise eyebrows, | am still awaiting an answer! Patricia Safeguard say that the 'toad' is covered for third party risks only. This means that if you hit someone, or cause damage with the 'toad' itself whilst towing it, then any claim against you would be covered, but not any damage to the 'toad'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 As above, when the car is being towed, for insurance purposes it is regarded as a trailer and, as such, an integral part of the towing vehicle - but only insofar as third party risks are concerned. For this reason, it is a bit misleading to say the car is insured while on tow. It is not, it is only the additional third party risk posed by the "trailer" (in this case a car) that is insured. The car still needs to be fully insured to be used as a car, and the insurer needs to know and accept that the car will be on tow some of the time, and to confirm that the car will remain insured, on whatever basis it is normally insured, whist on tow, with the exception that the third part risk then transfers to the towing vehicle. If this is not clarified, and the car suffers damage while on tow, the insurer would be entitled to reject the claim, on the ground that full disclosure had not been made. I'm not saying he would, but that he could. If it is not disclosed, it is not part of the insurance contract. Your risk, your decision. So, throughout the scheduled territories, the trailer risk is legally insured. Thus, if you hit another car with your toad while towing it, the claim will be against your van insurance, not against the toad insurance. It is a third party trailer risk. In this context, it makes no difference whether the trailer is a car, a caravan, or a baggage trailer, because the liability is only for the damage it does to that other car, not to the trailer itself, so its value as a trailer is irrelevant to the proceedings. That is the legal position regarding insurance of third party trailer risks, and that legal position does not change whatever the shape, colour, or appearance of the trailer. However, to be legally insured as a trailer, the car must comply with the relevant laws covering trailers. It must not be loaded beyond its permissible limit. It must not exceed the maximum permissible trailer weight for the tow vehicle, nor must the combination exceed the gross train weight for the tow vehicle. If it exceeds 750kg MAM, it must have brakes. If it is fitted with brakes, irrespective of its weight, the brakes must work when the tow vehicle brakes. It's brakes must dis-engage when the combination is reversed, and this must be achieved automatically, without intervention by the driver or others. Its road lights, brake lights, and indicators must operate from the towing vehicle, it must show the same registration number as the towing vehicle, and it must carry two triangular red reflectors at the rear. Roughly, if it meets all those requirements, it is legal to be on the road as a trailer. So, how might its illegality when towed in Spain affect its insurance? The car itself is not illegal. The A frame has no legal status. The tow vehicle itself is not illegal, and has the required third party cover while towing a trailer. The car is insured, when it is being a car, and has at least the internationally agreed minimum cover within the scheduled territories. The A frame needs no insurance. The trailer is insured against third party risks, as legally required, whether it is in fact a car, or not. The tow vehicle has at least the internationally agreed minimum cover within the scheduled territories. There is no quarrel with the legality of the individual parts of the combination. The only quarrel is with the act of towing one vehicle with another on a public road. This has no bearing on the parts themselves, just on the act of towing, because under Spanish law, a car cannot be regarded as a trailer because it is registered, insured, and licenced as a car, and so is a road vehicle. What might one seek to claim for, under one's insurances, as a result of being stopped and made to uncouple, and/or being fined, for towing a car in Spain? You'd get short shrift if you tried claiming for the fine, just as you would if fined for exceeding the speed limit. I just can't see what else. So, I really, really, can't see the problem, so long as all material facts have been declared to the insurer. The only problem is that you risk being fined for driving an illegal combination. What else? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Extracts from 2 posts by the same person! Post 1 ...........Towing is towing, it matter not with what you tow. A car cannot become a trailer, because it is registered as a car, if in doubt, look in its V5C. The famous "grey area" exists under UK law only. Post 2 ......... when the car is being towed, for insurance purposes it is regarded as a trailer and, as such, an integral part of the towing vehicle - but only insofar as third party risks are concerned. For this reason, it is a bit misleading to say the car is insured while on tow. It is not, it is only the additional third party risk posed by the "trailer" (in this case a car) that is insured. Who's confused now? *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy23 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Hi Guys Thought I would help mix it up a bit :-) I live in Spain and my friend the local cop says, you cannot tow a car in Spain except in an emergency and then only for a short distance. He also remarked that a car is a car, if you call it a trailer then great but to him it is a car, you cannot tow it with rope, string, or an A frame, it is against the law. And he would, if he spotted you, nick you. Guess you take your chance, just don't go near Sevilla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 DJP - 2012-02-08 7:58 PM Extracts from 2 posts by the same person! Post 1 ...........Towing is towing, it matter not with what you tow. A car cannot become a trailer, because it is registered as a car, if in doubt, look in its V5C. The famous "grey area" exists under UK law only. Post 2 ......... when the car is being towed, for insurance purposes it is regarded as a trailer and, as such, an integral part of the towing vehicle - but only insofar as third party risks are concerned. For this reason, it is a bit misleading to say the car is insured while on tow. It is not, it is only the additional third party risk posed by the "trailer" (in this case a car) that is insured. Who's confused now? *-) Plainly you are, because you don't/won't/can't distinguish between the vehicle itself, and its insurance. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 DJP - 2012-02-08 7:58 PM Extracts from 2 posts by the same person! Post 1 ...........Towing is towing, it matter not with what you tow. A car cannot become a trailer, because it is registered as a car, if in doubt, look in its V5C. The famous "grey area" exists under UK law only. Post 2 ......... when the car is being towed, for insurance purposes it is regarded as a trailer and, as such, an integral part of the towing vehicle - but only insofar as third party risks are concerned. For this reason, it is a bit misleading to say the car is insured while on tow. It is not, it is only the additional third party risk posed by the "trailer" (in this case a car) that is insured. Who's confused now? *-) There's no need to have a diploma in DoubleThink to understand the extracts you've quoted from Brian's Thread Page 1 and Page 4 postings. Unless you happen to be Cinderella and have a Fairy Godmother, it won't be possible to transform a pumpkin and some mice into a coach and horses. Similarly, it won't be possible to physically transform a fully-functioning car into a trailer. (Haven't we already discussed this in excruciating detail on Thread Page 3 as a result of Peter's posting?) However, it's perfectly possible "for insurance purposes" for the car to be regarded as a trailer while it's being towed behind a motorhome. Billy23's cop friend's view is the commonsense one - the 'toad' is a car; towing a car is illegal in Spain; prepare to be fined. UK A-framers are an odd lot - the vast majority seem to be positively evangelical about the practice, but unprepared to research the possibility that it might have negative aspects. If UK A-framers won't put the effort in to establish the legal risk-factor in A-framing outside the UK, then there's little likelihood that UK non-A-framers will do it for them. In the meantime the occasional A-framer gets fined abroad and the argument just goes on and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-02-09 10:58 AM DJP - 2012-02-08 7:58 PM Extracts from 2 posts by the same person! Post 1 ...........Towing is towing, it matter not with what you tow. A car cannot become a trailer, because it is registered as a car, if in doubt, look in its V5C. The famous "grey area" exists under UK law only. Post 2 ......... when the car is being towed, for insurance purposes it is regarded as a trailer and, as such, an integral part of the towing vehicle - but only insofar as third party risks are concerned. For this reason, it is a bit misleading to say the car is insured while on tow. It is not, it is only the additional third party risk posed by the "trailer" (in this case a car) that is insured. Who's confused now? *-) Plainly you are, because you don't/won't/can't distinguish between the vehicle itself, and its insurance. :-D Ah, that's ok. I am glad it is me that's confused. For one moment I thought I was beginning to get to grips with it all. In the meantime I will continue to think that illegal is a sick bird and TOAD is a Trailer Or Automotive Dual.........function vehicle (lol) Get me coat :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Question: If you are towing your 'toad' using an A-frame in Spain and cause an accident with it (eg by it swinging out and clouting a car), could you be prosecuted for dangerous driving or some such offence as well as having to stump up the cost of rectification/damages/compensation???? If so, who would pay for this???? 8-) Discuss ..... *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbotham Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Queston: (Let's leave aside the first question of why on earth I'd consider towing my car outside UK) If towing a car on an a-frame, how could it swing out and hit something? Clearly you've never pulled a car on an a-frame. They simply won't snake like a conventional trailer. Basic laws of physics territory. Now if you'd asked the question of someone pulling a car on an a-frame in Spain maladjusting their braking cable so the toad brakes bind and it catches fire and blocks the carriageway, or worse the fire spreads to other vehicles....well that's one that's worth looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Rosbotham - 2012-02-10 12:01 AM If towing a car on an a-frame, how could it swing out and hit something? Clearly you've never pulled a car on an a-frame. They simply won't snake like a conventional trailer. Basic laws of physics territory. Well, Mel's example was clearly just that,an example(eg!?).... :-S But if you want to be pedantic...there was someone on here not so long back,who'd posted that the towing eye on his Smart car had started to let go,causing the car to snake and judder all over the place..Luckily it didn't break loose altogether and it sounded as though it only happedned at low speed.. But who knows what "territory" of "basic physics" would've been involved, had it let got at speed?.. So...sh*t DOES happen!.... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Mel B - 2012-02-09 10:22 PM Question: If you are towing your 'toad' using an A-frame in Spain and cause an accident with it (eg by it swinging out and clouting a car), could you be prosecuted for dangerous driving or some such offence as well as having to stump up the cost of rectification/damages/compensation???? If so, who would pay for this???? 8-) Discuss ..... *-) It would be the same scenario as if you were towing a car on a trailer, except the A-frame-towing illegality would be added into the mix. Besides any offences that might potentially result from the car-on-a-trailer accident scenario, you'd have the A-framing offence as well. Your insurance company would need to deal with any claim that included addiitional culpability on your part because you were carrying out a practice that was illegal in Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-10 10:17 AM Mel B - 2012-02-09 10:22 PM Question: If you are towing your 'toad' using an A-frame in Spain and cause an accident with it (eg by it swinging out and clouting a car), could you be prosecuted for dangerous driving or some such offence as well as having to stump up the cost of rectification/damages/compensation???? If so, who would pay for this???? 8-) Discuss ..... *-) It would be the same scenario as if you were towing a car on a trailer, except the A-frame-towing illegality would be added into the mix. Besides any offences that might potentially result from the car-on-a-trailer accident scenario, you'd have the A-framing offence as well. Your insurance company would need to deal with any claim that included addiitional culpability on your part because you were carrying out a practice that was illegal in Spain. Confused here again Mr Kirby said ......... when the car is being towed, for insurance purposes it is regarded as a trailer and, as such, an integral part of the towing vehicle - but only insofar as third party risks are concerned. For this reason, it is a bit misleading to say the car is insured while on tow. It is not, it is only the additional third party risk posed by the "trailer" (in this case a car) that is insured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Boy, these threads really do get tedious , The 'For's' (and i am one of them, although i don't yet own one) must (or face the consequences) accept that in most of the rest of Europe they ARE illegal, only Pig-Headed ones refuse to accept the fact. The 'Against's' are almost 'Puritanical' in their belief that 'A-Frames' anywhere ! SHOULD be illegal, even here, in the UK ! where at present the case is merely 'unproven'. My view is that unless they are 'proven' to be unsafe, and no-one has put foward 'safety' as a case against. They SHOULD be made 'officially' Lawful in the UK. I am NO LOVER of EU harmonisation. as it always seems we adopt (too readily) EU laws in the UK, but the rest of Europe 'Ignore' laws they don't like, and pursue anything that comes from Britain with suspicion , like, no seperate registration for trailers and caravans, some folk have been 'booked' for having the same registration on a trailer as the towing vehicle ?? yet impossible to do in the UK, ( apart from a car, being towed on an A-Frame !!) I am not a ' Little Englander' but think that 'Harmonisation' should flow both ways. and that in THIS case, With 'Safety NOT at issue, it should 'Flow' from the UK to Mainland Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Ray.. ...I can't say that I've seen any "puritanical" objections to A frames on this thread,if I'm honest.? :-S (..Only "objections" to those who seem hell bent on ignoring the laws of "Johny Foreigner".. *-) ) Have you made any decision yet,as to which Frame you're going for? (..I see your "Which A frame" thread has fell off the front page.I did post a link to the smart-tow set up,which I believe has some gadetry,which keeps the vehicle servo "primed"). C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Mel B - 2012-02-09 10:22 PM Question: If you are towing your 'toad' using an A-frame in Spain and cause an accident with it (eg by it swinging out and clouting a car), could you be prosecuted for dangerous driving or some such offence as well as having to stump up the cost of rectification/damages/compensation???? If so, who would pay for this???? 8-) Discuss ..... *-) Oh, come on Mel, that's a SOTBO! :-) Of course you could be, depending on circumstances. By the same token you could be prosecuted for driving dangerously if you cause an accident by clouting a car while driving solo. Towing, and A frames, aren't relevant to dangerous driving charges. Please keep to the point! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 DJP - 2012-02-10 10:52 AM Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-10 10:17 AM..............................It would be the same scenario as if you were towing a car on a trailer, except the A-frame-towing illegality would be added into the mix. Besides any offences that might potentially result from the car-on-a-trailer accident scenario, you'd have the A-framing offence as well. Your insurance company would need to deal with any claim that included addiitional culpability on your part because you were carrying out a practice that was illegal in Spain. Confused here again Mr Kirby said ......... when the car is being towed, for insurance purposes it is regarded as a trailer and, as such, an integral part of the towing vehicle - but only insofar as third party risks are concerned. For this reason, it is a bit misleading to say the car is insured while on tow. It is not, it is only the additional third party risk posed by the "trailer" (in this case a car) that is insured. But why are you confused? I can't see any confusion between the two statements. One relates to liability to be prosecuted for dangerous driving, as postulated by Mel. The other relates to who becomes liable to pay for any resulting damage under a contract of insurance. Even if you were prosecuted and convicted of dangerous driving, your insurer still has to pay the injured party. Besides, neither event has any bearing on the legality, or illegality, of towing a car with an A-frame in Spain, which is what the string is about. Don't know what the problem is here, but even if you satisfy yourself that you have trounced all my points on all fronts, the final arbiter will be the Spanish police, should you decide to tow a car with an A-frame in Spain, always remembering that absence of police action is not evidence of legality, merely that you were not spotted! Back to Dirty Harry: are you feeling lucky? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Rayjsj - 2012-02-10 11:28 AM...................My view is that unless they are 'proven' to be unsafe, and no-one has put foward 'safety' as a case against. They SHOULD be made 'officially' Lawful in the UK. I am NO LOVER of EU harmonisation. as it always seems we adopt (too readily) EU laws in the UK, but the rest of Europe 'Ignore' laws they don't like, and pursue anything that comes from Britain with suspicion , like, no seperate registration for trailers and caravans, some folk have been 'booked' for having the same registration on a trailer as the towing vehicle ?? yet impossible to do in the UK, ( apart from a car, being towed on an A-Frame !!) I am not a ' Little Englander' but think that 'Harmonisation' should flow both ways. and that in THIS case, With 'Safety NOT at issue, it should 'Flow' from the UK to Mainland Europe. It's a long story, Ray, that starts for Britain in 1066. In most of Europe it starts in about 1800. What you are asking is for continental Europe to accept the common law notion that things are deemed legal until ruled illegal. Broadly, there concept is that things are deemed illegal unless ruled legal. That is what is at the root of the A-frame legality debate. Safety has not been challenged either side of the channel, it is purely legality. The only way in which safety might arise would be if evidence was gathered in UK that they were unsafe, when the courts would hold their users liable and their use would become an (presumably) uninsurable risk. That chances of the UK legislating to make A-frames positively legal, as opposed to legal by default, seems to me remote in the extreme, so I can't see your Fairy Godmother granting you wish any time soon! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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