New bedroom tax

[Dr Dave]

Phew

When i saw the title of this thread 'New bedroom tax' i mistakenly thought it was a tax on bedroom activities. But then i thought i might be due a refund ;-)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Tracker - 2013-01-31 2:53 PM

 

  Some are unable to 'rise' from the minimum wage jobs due to their abilities/capabilities, lack of education, physical disabilities etc etc.  Your comment is almost as infuriating as the Governments 'we're all in it together' bollox.

 

That's true of course - and the safety net should always be there for those who are unable for whatever reason, but that does not mean a council house is for life regardless of housing needs.

That said, there are still many who could, with a little help and encouragement maybe, do a lot better for themselves over the course of their working lives.

Of course that might mean taking a risk and/or moving home or to a new area - but c'est la vie - if you want it go get it!!

 

 

With respect your missing, or did not understand the point I made, but was put again by a couple of posters above. we ALL rely on people that for whatever reason do low paid, and menial work, as someone said so well if everyone was "an achiever" non of us would have grub on the table for start off, or be able to go into that late night filling station to top up their motor homes. I for one are very glad I've never had to work in a poultry factory day after day killing and gutting chickens,so that we can go to M&S and buy our gourmet £10 eat in meal deal, the point is someone has to do it, and they are invariably poorly paid.

 

They may well do that all their working lives, but now largely because of immigrants ( and I make no apology ) who out-breed us, and need accommodating,( with more to come ) so lets kick the existingcouncil tenants in the goolies, and through financial hardship get them out, or to move to non existant "empty one bedroom places, it's a friggin disgrace..

 

AS for a council house should not be for life, what do you do then, chuck out all those pensioners, and send them out to camp with the illegals in Peterborough camping on the river bank ? There simply is NO where for them to go, even if they were happy to do so, for God sake folks, get real.

 

[Tracker]

You may have missed my previous posting which did address your point about low paid workers?

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Tracker - 2013-01-31 5:05 PM

 

You may have missed my previous posting which did address your point about low paid workers?

 

Probably, but this whole debate really gets to me,it seems as if I'm in the minority in thinking menial workers that we all depend on, that now find themselves perhaps reaching retirement being targeted through no fault of their own, build some nice small retirement places, and no doubt they would jump at one to free up their houses, there simply ain't none.

 

While Fred the Shred and all of his mates walk of into the sunset with millions for doing a lousy job

[Tracker]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 5:10

Probably, but this whole debate really gets to me,it seems as if I'm in the minority in thinking menial workers that we all depend on, that now find themselves perhaps reaching retirement being targeted through no fault of their own, build some nice small retirement places, and no doubt they would jump at one to free up their houses, there simply ain't none.

While Fred the Shred and all of his mates walk of into the sunset with millions for doing a lousy job

 

I still find it very hard to accept that anyone has a lifelong right to a three or four bedroom council house when they now need only one or two bedrooms - unless it was contractually written into the lease agreement that you have that home for life.

It is selfish and inconsiderate and as you are the one carping on about fairness, consider this please, retaining a house that is too big for your current and future needs is grossly unfair on younger families who are now in the same situation that you were when you were loaned your council house at below open market value rents?

Introducing another off topic element which has already been done to death on a previous thread is not relevant to this debate so I will ignore it.

[Guest pelmetman]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 5:10 PM

 

 

While Fred the Shred and all of his mates walk of into the sunset with millions for doing a lousy job

 

The world was never fair.............I learn't that a long time ago ;-)................best to enjoy it whilst your here though :D..................as I doubt things are any better in that great compost heap in the sky 8-)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Tracker - 2013-01-31 5:26 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 5:10

Probably, but this whole debate really gets to me,it seems as if I'm in the minority in thinking menial workers that we all depend on, that now find themselves perhaps reaching retirement being targeted through no fault of their own, build some nice small retirement places, and no doubt they would jump at one to free up their houses, there simply ain't none.

While Fred the Shred and all of his mates walk of into the sunset with millions for doing a lousy job

 

I still find it very hard to accept that anyone has a lifelong right to a three or four bedroom council house when they now need only one or two bedrooms - unless it was contractually written into the lease agreement that you have that home for life.

It is selfish and inconsiderate and as you are the one carping on about fairness, consider this please, retaining a house that is too big for your current and future needs is grossly unfair on younger families who are now in the same situation that you were when you were loaned your council house at below open market value rents?

Introducing another off topic element which has already been done to death on a previous thread is not relevant to this debate so I will ignore it.

 

Carping on Tracker, Mmm, just putting a point of view matey based on real life experience of social housing

 

Of course it's not an ideal situation, my late brother was in that situation, stuck in his three bedroom house where he had raised his children, ( and improved the house over many years ) he approached the council I know for certain to try and get a smaller property, the answer was always the same, there were non.

 

There has been a housing crisis in this country for many years, it's only going to get worse/

 

and this is why....There were 1.85 million households on local authority waiting lists

on 1 April 2012, an increase of 0.6 per cent on 1.84 million on 1

April 2011

 

Local authority landlords in England made 140,900 lettings during

2011-12, decreasing from 146,000 during 2010-11. This follows a

general decline from 326,600 in 2000-01

 

And this all in the same time that migrants flock here, looking for a house, like Abu Hanza mmmmmm

[donna miller]

Tracker - 2013-01-31 5:26 PM

 

 

 

I still find it very hard to accept that anyone has a lifelong right to a three or four bedroom council house when they now need only one or two bedrooms - unless it was contractually written into the lease agreement that you have that home for life.

.

 

Councils have a legal obligation to provide housing, if they evict someone for whatever reason, they have to find them alternative housing. Todays situation with the ECHR will soon rear its ugly head and judges will decree that the councils are breaching the basic human rights of their tenants to enjoy their current homes.

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

donna miller - 2013-01-31 6:27 PM

 

Tracker - 2013-01-31 5:26 PM

 

 

 

I still find it very hard to accept that anyone has a lifelong right to a three or four bedroom council house when they now need only one or two bedrooms - unless it was contractually written into the lease agreement that you have that home for life.

.

 

Councils have a legal obligation to provide housing, if they evict someone for whatever reason, they have to find them alternative housing. Todays situation with the ECHR will soon rear its ugly head and judges will decree that the councils are breaching the basic human rights of their tenants to enjoy their current homes.

 

That may be tongue in cheek from you, or sarcasm, or a genuine point, I don't know, but as an anti UE bloke you do raise an interesting point as it is enshrined in EU law "You have the right to enjoy your home

peacefully" and it goes on to say, a public authority cannot take away property or place restrictions on your use of your property without very good reason, perhaps this "tax" could be construed as harassment, mmmmm interesting,

[Brian Kirby]

Tracker - 2013-01-31 5:26 PM................I still find it very hard to accept that anyone has a lifelong right to a three or four bedroom council house when they now need only one or two bedrooms - unless it was contractually written into the lease agreement that you have that home for life.

.....................

So do I, but. It really isn't quite that simple, because for tenants/councils to be able to comply with what the government now requires, in the timescale it seems they require, is, IMO, totally unrealistic. First, as illustrated above, 1 and 2 bed flats/houses are not commonly available. Second, councils are having their cash allocations cut back, so have no flexibility to meet the need. Third, many people in the position where they will be required to downsize will be elderly, and may have lived in the same place for years. If moved, they will lose their homes and their communities. It is, of course, silly for a single person to occupy three of four bedrooms but, IMO, is entirely reasonable for them to have one spare room. May people in public housing not be allowed visitors? The whole question of public housing is a mess. But then, so is the question of private rented housing and freehold owner-occupied housing.

 

It won't do to say folk should only inhabit public housing as a last resort, because that alternative is out of reach for so many, in so many parts of the country. The government, IMO, sat on its hands as a price bubble in private freehold property fuelled a borrowing and spending spree. It should have sought to control the bubble, which could IMO only be achieved by releasing more land for development. The bubble was caused by demand exceeding supply. It fed into the private rental market with inflated rents, and an uncontrolled buy-to-let spree that was fuelled by lax lending policies. Low paid inner city workers simply cannot afford inner city property or the costs of travel from suburbs. The governments' answer was, in part, the lunacy of income support, where employers were, in effect, subsidised from taxation to pay low wages. Council tax assistance was merely another form of income support. It is financed from general taxation to allow employers with marginal businesses to pay low wages while retaining staff and making profit. That profit comes from taxation. Madness!

 

It is a problem that will take years to resolve. The present measures seem to me very crude, and very poorly thought through. If they are applied with more humanity than that with which they have been presented, as I hope they will be, they may be less draconian than they sound. If not, I fear we shall see rising suicides and pensioners sleeping (and dying) in cardboard boxes.

 

For public housing to be available merely for the low paid, the unemployed, and the disabled, we shall need hundreds of thousands of publicly funded houses for them to occupy, in the places they need to live to be able to work. That cannot happen over-night. If public housing is to be for the unemployed and the disabled only, we shall need genuinely affordable private rental housing, or a far higher minimum wage, for those on low pay, and we shall still need to built the necessary public housing. That can't happen over-night either.

 

For private freehold housing to become affordable we shall have to build hundreds of thousands of new homes, requiring acres of new land, to take supply ahead of demand and depress land prices. I can't see developers voting for that, and it will bring forth howls of anguish from all those middle class voters who find themselves in negative equity. This bedroom tax is just the tip of a coming iceberg, but IMO come it will, and I think it will shape our communities, and our public policy, for years to come. It will also bring very high costs, either to those caught in negative equity, to those paying council tax, or to us all as wages are pushed up so that employees can afford housing. One or other, or all three, it seems to me, will become inevitable. Mr Micawber may say something will turn up, but I has me serious doubts. He was saying that when he should have been fixing the roof. Instead, he believed it would stay sunny and dry, and spent the money elsewhere in foolish ways. Now he is broke, and the roof is leaking badly. I hope my gloom is misplaced, but I think it is not.

[malc d]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 6:32 PM

 

........................, perhaps this "tax" could be construed as harassment, mmmmm interesting,

 

 

But it's not actually a " tax " is it. It's a reduction of benefits.

 

I doubt if that will ever be construed as harrassment.

 

It would mean that no benefits could ever be reduced..

 

 

 

[Tracker]

Let me just say that no way would I condone any evictions on the grounds of too large a house and neither would I support good and valued tenants being forced to accept a rough(er) or more unpleasant area to move to.

 

It is the responsibility of the local authority to make suitable homes available to fill the needs of their local population.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

malc d - 2013-01-31 7:03 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 6:32 PM

 

........................, perhaps this "tax" could be construed as harassment, mmmmm interesting,

 

 

But it's not actually a " tax " is it. It's a reduction of benefits.

 

I doubt if that will ever be construed as harrassment.

 

It would mean that no benefits could ever be reduced..

 

 

 

Fair point, but given the fact that there are no smaller alternatives to move to, it is punitive to the people at the bottom of the heap, but all the time big business like Amazon avoid taxation, bankers who almost bankrupted the country still on massive bonuses, still lets give the pond life a good kicking instead.

[donna miller]

Problem solved

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271361/Disused-garages-turned-11-week-pop-homes-bid-solve-housing-crisis.html

 

 

And yes I do read the mail online, live with it. *-)

[malc d]

Tracker - 2013-01-30 2:45 PM

 

For elderly and infirm people, especially those who have lived in the same house for many years the thought of change can be quite terrifying.

 

 

 

From the little I have read about it, I understand that people over state pension age are exempt.

 

 

 

[malc d]

donna miller - 2013-01-31 7:27 PM

 

Problem solved

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271361/Disused-garages-turned-11-week-pop-homes-bid-solve-housing-crisis.html

 

 

And yes I do read the mail online, live with it. *-)

 

 

 

 

Must be a lot of empty shops that could be converted to housing.

 

(?)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

malc d - 2013-01-31 7:30 PM

 

donna miller - 2013-01-31 7:27 PM

 

Problem solved

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271361/Disused-garages-turned-11-week-pop-homes-bid-solve-housing-crisis.html

 

 

And yes I do read the mail online, live with it. *-)

 

Oh Donna, the Guardian is the paper of truth, shame on you

 

Our local council tried an initiative to bring private unoccupied houses into use, and asking for members of the public to identify them in their local communities, they would get guaranteed market rent, and full indemnity for damage or loss, I know of one particular house in our village that has stood empty in excess of 15 years, and still is now, the owner of which a local vet lives right next door, the scheme was quietly dropped however as according to the council minutes they had in effect got nowhere with it, makes you wonder.............mind you we're in second home heaven here with approx 55% of second homes that stand empty 9 months of the year,, that has added yet more pressure to local people as well, oh well............................

 

I've never understood the stance on mobile homes, that can only be occupied for the most part 8/9 months of the year, but can be bought for around 18 /22 k, even less for second hand ones, but the moment they are on a 12 month occupancy site those same vans are 75k,

[Mel B]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-30 11:57 PM

 

I'd be more than delighted for your Mother and her new found situation, what p*ssed me of, and still does is that you seemed to see an opportunity not to just make your mum comfortable, any one would have empathy with that viewpoint, but to make money out of buying her council flat at the age of 87, come on........buy your flat at 87, no it was to enrich yourself at some not too distant future date, you actually said that yourself..........not me, don't shoot the messenger. You may very well have not fully understood the implications, and perhaps did not, or do not see it in that light, but I'm past caring really, but......

 

As for all those empty one bed flats well you may be right, as I read.....................

 

Kirklees Lib Dem Group leader Clr Kath Pinnock said she was “appalled” that there were 3,479 long-term empty homes across Kirklees

 

While 17,000 people were on the council house waiting list.

 

So get them all in use tomorrow and there will only be 13000+ on the housing list, oh, problem solved,

 

Or 12999 if your Mums flat gets handed back , and surely they can't all be immigrants that might get it, can they, and quite frankly why should you care, like all council tenants your Mum only "borrowed it for a while.

 

;-)

You really are very bitter and twisted aren't you. 8-)

 

Let me say this to you ONE MORE TIME ... I DO NOT WANT HER TO BUY THE FLAMING FLAT, I NEVER HAVE! It is HER choice, she's the tenant, she has the right to do so, end of.

 

I have worked hard over the years saving and scrimping so that I will NOT have to draw anything other than my standard state pension (which I've paid into for over 30 years!) - I will NEVER need to get any benefits, handouts etc. It was MY choice to do that - others don't bother and fritter their money away and will take anything that's on offer without hesitation, I have made sure that I WON'T need to do this - this is NOT bragging, it's fact - I could have had expensive holidays, bought designer this and that, gone out for meals, spent nights at the pub etc like lots of people do, but I haven't. Everyone has a choice, even those on a low wage ... in my first job I was paid so little I didn't even HAVE to pay NI, so I worked hard, went to night classes at college for years and years and improved myself so that I could get better jobs. Nobody gave me what I have, I have earned it. Our luxury is our camper but we do get 'value for money' out of it as the cost of our holidays is very much reduced compared to what people spend on 'normal' type of holidays so the overall the costs of owning/purchasing and using it is less than most pepole would spend on holidays over the same time period. I don't know why I'm trying to explain this to you but, hey ho, it'll probably give you something else to whinge about so should keep you happy! :D

 

Perhaps in the past, if you had stopped spouting how unfair it all was and got off your soap box, as I'm sure this isn't a new 'development', then you MIGHT have had LESS to whinge about constantly now.

 

Oh, and there ARE lots of 1 bed flats round here so obviously our local councils were more 'sensible' compared to some ... so it's not so bad living in Hull after all! :->

[malc d]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 7:41 PM

 

malc d - 2013-01-31 7:30 PM

 

donna miller - 2013-01-31 7:27 PM

 

Problem solved

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2271361/Disused-garages-turned-11-week-pop-homes-bid-solve-housing-crisis.html

 

 

And yes I do read the mail online, live with it. *-)

 

Oh Donna, the Guardian is the paper of truth, shame on you

 

Our local council tried an initiative to bring private unoccupied houses into use, and asking for members of the public to identify them in their local communities, they would get guaranteed market rent, and full indemnity for damage or loss, I know of one particular house in our village that has stood empty in excess of 15 years, and still is now, the owner of which a local vet lives right next door, the scheme was quietly dropped however as according to the council minutes they had in effect got nowhere with it, makes you wonder.............mind you we're in second home heaven here with approx 55% of second homes that stand empty 9 months of the year,, that has added yet more pressure to local people as well, oh well............................

 

I've never understood the stance on mobile homes, that can only be occupied for the most part 8/9 months of the year, but can be bought for around 18 /22 k, even less for second hand ones, but the moment they are on a 12 month occupancy site those same vans are 75k,

 

 

 

 

Not my posting - my name appears at the top in error.

;-)

[antony1969]

Tracker - 2013-01-30 10:03 PM

 

antony1969 - 2013-01-30 9:30 PM

Malc , I heard Tracker say it earlier if you want to gob him .

 

That Antony is not only untrue it is not funny and I reckon an apology is in order.

 

Don't quite understand why Rich but if you require an apology then I apologise and Malc I dont come on here to pick on anyone . As far as Rich is concerned and speaking for myself I have only ever had a bit of banter and certainly never any nastiness etc .

[Mel B]

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 10:57 AM

 

Our local council tried an initiative to bring private unoccupied houses into use, and asking for members of the public to identify them in their local communities, they would get guaranteed market rent, and full indemnity for damage or loss, I know of one particular house in our village that has stood empty in excess of 15 years, and still is now, the owner of which a local vet lives right next door, the scheme was quietly dropped however as according to the council minutes they had in effect got nowhere with it, makes you wonder.............mind you we're in second home heaven here with approx 55% of second homes that stand empty 9 months of the year,, that has added yet more pressure to local people as well, oh well............................

 

I've never understood the stance on mobile homes, that can only be occupied for the most part 8/9 months of the year, but can be bought for around 18 /22 k, even less for second hand ones, but the moment they are on a 12 month occupancy site those same vans are 75k,

 

Ah, so now we're getting to the 'real' bottom of all of this, the problem isn't simply the lack of council housing and what you see as the 'greedy' people who buy them, it's the lack of affordable housing in general available to buy due to the influx of second home owners ... oh, and your council not having enough conviction to sort out the empty homes problem.

 

So, if there weren't so many second homes and the properties were instead back in the owner occupier market, the prices wouldn't then be so inflated and out of reach of the low paid workers and therefore there wouldn't be a NEED for so much council housing. But then if the second home owners didn't come to stay there they wouldn't bring income into the area which then provides a need for some of the work which the low paid workers carry out ... hmmmmmmmm ... decisions, decisions ... certainly not as clear cut as you like to make it out to be. Go on, give your crystal ball another rub and tell us how to sort this out then! :-S

[nightrider]

malc d - 2013-01-31 7:03 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2013-01-31 6:32 PM

 

........................, perhaps this "tax" could be construed as harassment, mmmmm interesting,

 

 

But it's not actually a " tax " is it. It's a reduction of benefits.

 

I doubt if that will ever be construed as harrassment.

 

It would mean that no benefits could ever be reduced..

 

 

Anything deducted from the publics pocket is a tax in my opinion no matter how it is served up

[Basil]

Mel B - 2013-01-31 7:53 PM

 

............................I have worked hard over the years saving and scrimping so that I will NOT have to draw anything other than my standard state pension (which I've paid into for over 30 years!) - I will NEVER need to get any benefits, handouts etc. It was MY choice to do that - others don't bother and fritter their money away and will take anything that's on offer without hesitation, I have made sure that I WON'T need to do this - this is NOT bragging, it's fact - I could have had expensive holidays, bought designer this and that, gone out for meals, spent nights at the pub etc like lots of people do, but I haven't. Everyone has a choice, even those on a low wage ... in my first job I was paid so little I didn't even HAVE to pay NI, so I worked hard, went to night classes at college for years and years and improved myself so that I could get better jobs. Nobody gave me what I have, I have earned it. Our luxury is our camper but we do get 'value for money' out of it as the cost of our holidays is very much reduced compared to what people spend on 'normal' type of holidays so the overall the costs of owning/purchasing and using it is less than most pepole would spend on holidays over the same time period. I don't know why I'm trying to explain this to you but, hey ho, it'll probably give you something else to whinge about so should keep you happy! :D

 

Perhaps in the past, if you had stopped spouting how unfair it all was and got off your soap box, as I'm sure this isn't a new 'development', then you MIGHT have had LESS to whinge about constantly now.

 

Oh, and there ARE lots of 1 bed flats round here so obviously our local councils were more 'sensible' compared to some ... so it's not so bad living in Hull after all! :->

 

 

Glad to see you have 'made your own luck and breaks' Mel exactly as myself and many others have, only to be discriminated against in our old age, whilst the 'takers' get all the handouts. At least I can honestly say I have never given up and whinged on about my lot, I no doubt like you, have just got off my backside and worked, doing three jobs at one time just to get into a position that enabled us to get to where we are now.

 

 

Bas

[Guest pelmetman]

Being bone idle for the last 9 years has got me where I am today ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spain B-)

[Tracker]

pelmetman - 2013-01-31 8:41 PM

 

Being bone idle for the last 9 years has got me where I am today ;-)

 

 

 

And I commend the concept to the assembled membership!!