globebuster Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Not the inclusion of Polystyrene although that is not as favourable a closed-cell options - but the effect that it will have in increasing the corrosion. This would included retention of moisture, TSV [thermal substrate variation] and the effects caused by leaching of certain chemicals used in the Polystyrene manufacturing process on the aluminium. Not exclusive to Elddis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 If what we have seen regarding moisture attacking the aluminium then, it seems that the manufacturers who laminate the polystyrene with fibreglass are the best. Lunar was one of them and they seem to have stood the test of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Having had a Lunar caravan in the past all I can say is they were probably the worst constructed caravan I've ever seen. Under the trim strip the roof didn't even overlap the side wall a gap filled with sealant on top of bare untreated wood. Some Lunar Motorhomes were made by Homecar in Belgium and they went bump. Saw a Low Profile Lunar on the motorway last year the side of the overcab moulding was flapping in the breeze where the sealant had given way. I would put Lunar at the top of the worst built list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 globebuster - 2013-12-21 11:46 AM Not the inclusion of Polystyrene although that is not as favourable a closed-cell options - But polystyrene is a closed cell foam. And you still have not said what Eldis should use in place of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 globebuster - 2013-12-21 11:46 AM (Polystyrene is) Not exclusive to Elddis. Well at least you got something right ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 Peter James - 2013-12-21 8:56 AM globebuster - 2013-12-18 5:26 PM I know what you mean - my wife was really impressed watching me grovel about on the floor in front of a few thousand people at the NEC 8-) As I keep stressing, I don't have a 'downer' on British vans........just the ones I see most fault in. They are not alone, some Euro vans are not perfect, but the Brits seem to excel in terms of poor design and structural quality. Until the NCC have any clout or Magazines start doing some half-decent appraisals we are on our own! So keep looking under'um [old or new] - a fair guideline to build expectation can be gleaned from looking in all the wrong places!. Start from the bottom and work your way up, and if you're still satisfied THEN it might be worth opening the door to consider the layout and spec. But you still haven't told us what British built vans should use in place of polystyrene. We would welcome an expert opinion. *-)High density polyurethane foam is a far better product. It is way better than styrene and is a hell of a lot more rigid. Hence it's widespread use in the building industry (Kingspan for one). I'ts insulation properties are also superior, as used by quality van builders in the main. How's that for starters?. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 22, 2013 Share Posted December 22, 2013 rolandrat - 2013-12-21 1:42 PM If what we have seen regarding moisture attacking the aluminium then, it seems that the manufacturers who laminate the polystyrene with fibreglass are the best. Lunar was one of them and they seem to have stood the test of time.You cannot laminate polystyrene directly with fibreglass, as the polyester resin will dissolve the foam. However this is not the case with polyurethane foam, which many European builders use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Peter James - 2013-12-22 10:09 PM globebuster - 2013-12-21 11:46 AM (Polystyrene is) Not exclusive to Elddis. Well at least you got something right ;-) And this "dig" from the bloke who told us all how he "hoses out his van", only to realise after doing it for some time,that by doing so he was filling up all the sill / body section with water... "Expertise" indeed there PJ. ;-) (..let's just hope globebuster doesn't declare himself a royalist...or you'll never leave him in peace..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Peter James - 2013-12-22 10:08 PM globebuster - 2013-12-21 11:46 AM Not the inclusion of Polystyrene although that is not as favourable a closed-cell options - But polystyrene is a closed cell foam. And you still have not said what Eldis should use in place of it. The 'nobbly' nature of the outer surface of the polystyrene in-fill material used by Elddis in coombsmk2's Autoquest's body-panels will retain any water entering the panel. Even though the water will be unable to penetrate the polystyrene material itself, the surface water-retention is bound to increase the damage caused by water ingress. Having said that, I don't know why you keep harping on about the polystyrene in-fill, as it's the plywood sheathing, the wood framing, the thin alloy skin and the lack of sealing that are the real culprits. This type of construction is what one might have expected with an early-1990s UK-manufactured coachbuilt motorhome (and, even then, it would have been unacceptable) but it's certainly not the way a 2010 Elddis motorhome should have been built. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-23 9:02 AM Peter James - 2013-12-22 10:08 PM globebuster - 2013-12-21 11:46 AM Not the inclusion of Polystyrene although that is not as favourable a closed-cell options - But polystyrene is a closed cell foam. And you still have not said what Eldis should use in place of it. The 'nobbly' nature of the outer surface of the polystyrene in-fill material used by Elddis in coombsmk2's Autoquest's body-panels will retain any water entering the panel. Even though the water will be unable to penetrate the polystyrene material itself, the surface water-retention is bound to increase the damage caused by water ingress. Having said that, I don't know why you keep harping on about the polystyrene in-fill, as it's the plywood sheathing, the wood framing, the thin alloy skin and the lack of sealing that are the real culprits. This type of construction is what one might have expected with an early-1990s UK-manufactured coachbuilt motorhome (and, even then, it would have been unacceptable) but it's certainly not the way a 2010 Elddis motorhome should have been built. Thanks for the explanation. It wasn't me that started the discussion about polystyrene. On the subject of foam a guy was filling in gaps in his cellar with aerosol cans of spray foam, which give off an inflammable vapor. It is believed this vapor was ignited by the spark from the electrical contacts on the freezer thermostat. The resultant explosion literally demolished the house and killed 2 people in it http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/newark-gas-explosion-second-body-recovered-from-destroyed-house-8623104.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Auto-Trail have been lining the outer walls with a composite laminate for some time now but I don't know the make up of the insulation membrane in between. They also changed the windows from plastic to alloy frames as they were having problems with the walls fracturing on some models. A comment was made about poor build quality on Lunars, not all were bad. The Lostock Hall built ones such as the Roadstars were well made and there's plenty of them around. The 620's have a one piece roof with no joints apart from roof sky lights and vents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 I realise my 'limited knowledge' of 36 years is wasted on certain individuals (lol) either through ignorance, or plain stupidity - So Peter, if you don't understand my replies [which you clearly don't] or merely wish to create some kind of irrational argument think of something better. Or are we heading towards your damp mattress, weather in Grimsby, disposable raincoat analogy of a previous post !?!? Polystyrene Is Not a closed cell foam. Try Polyethylene. Derek is right that the ingress is due to other poor Elddis build techniques - and I can assure you these will continue to grace the pages of this forum for some time to come. However I remarked on the point that the Polystyrene WILL effect the corrosion on the inner aluminium face - directly or indirectly. I now realise the futility of my efforts on this site - I genuinely think I could help a few people out, and conversely, when I require some advice or specific information there are many on the forum who could oblige..........mind you there are some right planks on here as well :-D - Must be the Marangoni effect! Have a Good Christmas one and all.....Oh! almost forgot - must remember to tape the Queens Speech so I can play it over and over again - D'you know I never tire of those Royals, give 'em more money I say.....worth every penny 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 globebuster - 2013-12-23 6:12 PM Polystyrene Is Not a closed cell foam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystyrene Expanded polystyrene (EPS) is a rigid and tough, closed-cell foam. see wikipedia link above How could they use it in life-jacket floats if it was not a closed cell foam - it would sink like a bathroom sponge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Well, for your benefit, I couldn't resist one last go on this forum. OK, technically I'll accept your layman's comment - But the crap used by some coachbuilders is not EPS, it's the sort of stuff used in protective packaging and the like, and probably not used much [if at all] these days in the construction industry. Again as Derek points out, the texture encourages moisture retention between substrates, and the differences in thermal properties between this and superior alternatives is significant - which you might be interested to know, would play a major part in the dynamic of the corrosion process. As for using this cheap type of foam in a lifejacket - that would be unlikely [and probably non-conforming] due to its brittle nature, fire risk, amongst other things. I've spent a lot of time 'donned' with a lifejacket and have never seen its use, where as 'proper' soft closed cell is still quite common place in jackets used in commercial marine environments. Having said that, I don't think I've worn a lifejacket with any kind of foam content in the last 25 years. So let's go back to the start then - I suggested that the kind of foam used by Elddis [and others] could exacerbate the aluminium corrosion problem - no if's no but's, a fact - borne out of experience I might add. To my reply you chose to either - fail to comprehend, or misunderstand. To my reiteration [and simplifying of the point] you chose, quite clearly, to come back with some 'amusing' little quip - or two......possibly a feeling of inferiority on your part? Have a Good Christmas and a Happy New Year......don't forget the speech though :-D :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 One day we might see a coach built body built out of carbon fibre lashed to a titanium mainframe bolted together with stainless steel nuts and bolts with a Cadmium anode bolted to the chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 Peter James - 2013-12-23 10:58 AM Derek Uzzell - 2013-12-23 9:02 AM Peter James - 2013-12-22 10:08 PM globebuster - 2013-12-21 11:46 AM Not the inclusion of Polystyrene although that is not as favourable a closed-cell options - But polystyrene is a closed cell foam. And you still have not said what Eldis should use in place of it. The 'nobbly' nature of the outer surface of the polystyrene in-fill material used by Elddis in coombsmk2's Autoquest's body-panels will retain any water entering the panel. Even though the water will be unable to penetrate the polystyrene material itself, the surface water-retention is bound to increase the damage caused by water ingress. Having said that, I don't know why you keep harping on about the polystyrene in-fill, as it's the plywood sheathing, the wood framing, the thin alloy skin and the lack of sealing that are the real culprits. This type of construction is what one might have expected with an early-1990s UK-manufactured coachbuilt motorhome (and, even then, it would have been unacceptable) but it's certainly not the way a 2010 Elddis motorhome should have been built. Thanks for the explanation. It wasn't me that started the discussion about polystyrene. On the subject of foam a guy was filling in gaps in his cellar with aerosol cans of spray foam, which give off an inflammable vapor. It is believed this vapor was ignited by the spark from the electrical contacts on the freezer thermostat. The resultant explosion literally demolished the house and killed 2 people in it http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/newark-gas-explosion-second-body-recovered-from-destroyed-house-8623104.htmlThe expanding polyurethane foam does not give off an inflammable vapour. But the propellant, being Butane, certainly will explode in a confined space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 rolandrat - 2013-12-23 8:41 PM One day we might see a coach built body built out of carbon fibre lashed to a titanium mainframe bolted together with stainless steel nuts and bolts with a Cadmium anode bolted to the chassis.You could have one now, if you had the wherewithal to commission it. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted December 23, 2013 Share Posted December 23, 2013 globebuster - 2013-12-23 8:14 PM OK, technically I'll accept your layman's comment - Is that your way of admitting you were wrong and it is a closed cell foam? globebuster - 2013-12-23 8:14 PM But the crap used by some coachbuilders is not EPS, :-D :-D Well if as you said it is polystyrene, it would have to be EPS - expanded polystyrene, because ordinary polystyrene is a solid comparatively heavy plastic. Whether its used in packaging or not is just a distraction. Why don't you just admit you don't really know what you are talking about because its looking pretty obvious from here, and you are even contradicting yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 OK ,I admit - I don't really know what I'm talking about - Polystyrene EPS, XEPS, Polyurethane, Divinycell I just got confused.......I couldn't help it! I got it wrong Peter.J...and I am sooo sorry, I really am - I ought to have made it clearer. You see in my industry we wouldn't even consider that kind of crap Polystyrene sheeting - To me EPS is Polyurethane PU which of course works well with PU sealants so we're talking quality now - or if we're still with the 'styrene XTR [sometimes called XEPS] in limited applications. I notice [once again] that you have selected certain snippets of my last post and replied to them in isolation - rather than expanding on your view or actually being able to address the comments. So did I answer the initial question? - Polystyrene/Aluminium/Corrosion YES. Am I going to elaborate NO. Were you too inept to understand? - Possibly or maybe you were just being churlish....... I'm always willing to learn, so I'm looking forward to hearing more from you PJ - as I'm guessing you have an expansive knowledge of foam [pun intended] and various other insulation materials. I'm sorry to all those people I've misled with my spurious claims that I might have some experience which may prove useful to others :-( I've been exposed by Peter James and it's a fair cop 'guv. I suppose it's time I confessed - My whole life has been a sham 8-) :D Must go - got to pressure wash me camper.....as it's raining I'll do the inside first :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 If you've been exposed by Peter James that's a very hollow victory for him, I'm sure most on here couldn't give a roodoo about any of it, we just want vans that don't leak. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globebuster Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 That was my poor attempt at irony :-D I don't have time to ponce about on here really anyway. If you want a van that doesn't leak, avoid an Elddis and one or two of the usual suspects. Regardless of your recent boiler glitch, you could do a lot worse than a Rapido Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted December 24, 2013 Share Posted December 24, 2013 globebuster - 2013-12-24 8:20 AM That was my poor attempt at irony :-D I don't have time to ponce about on here really anyway. If you want a van that doesn't leak, avoid an Elddis and one or two of the usual suspects. Regardless of your recent boiler glitch, you could do a lot worse than a Rapido Yes thanks Mike, the more I've looked at it the more I'm happy with it compared to many others I've both owned and looked at, and of course a dodgy boiler can happen with any van, anyway have a nice one, regards, Mike. ;-) P.S, I did get the irony bit, I was trying to be ironic as well. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daillyboy Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 I have it on both sides of my ELDDIS Classique 120 ( Autoquest 120 and also had it on my previous van a Compass Avantgarde 100, It looks to me like it's the head of a nail or similar fastener which is slightly proud and making contact with the alloy panel and causing disslmilar metal electrolytic corrosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jumpstart Posted June 8, 2019 Share Posted June 8, 2019 Can I whisper something.........we are really pleased with our 2019 Elddis 115. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 9, 2019 Share Posted June 9, 2019 jumpstart - 2019-06-08 6:54 PM Can I whisper something.........we are really pleased with our 2019 Elddis 115. Pssst......It's only a few months old :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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