Barryd999 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-17 10:12 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-16 11:27 PM I suspect you will find once the truth is out and we know what our crap deal is that 4 out of 10 will be more like 9 out of 10. If its a soft brexit Norway type deal surely most people will vote to remain completely as its what we have now just without any say or place at the table. My gut feeling is the opposite........and I also reckon you remainers have shot your bolt.......but that wont stop them trying to pin every downward blip in the economy on BREXIT *-) .......... Besides whats the point of being at the EU table?...........Hasn't done us any good for the last 40 years......except we seem to keep ending up with most of the tab :-| ...... I have noticed a trend lately in Brexiteers mentioning that the remain camp will blame any down turn on Brexit. Especially since the news came out that we may lose £66bn per year on GDP as a result. Makes the £8bn we paid in look like chicken feed. What else are we going to blame if that happens? The French or the Germans? The weather? Why do you think we are so determined to stop it? The point of being at the table (and its a matter of opinion that its done us no good for 40 years) is change has to come and when it does and we are stuck in a Norway type agreement wouldnt you rather we had a say in what laws and rules the EU countries bestow upon us? You lot talk about taking back control well you had better start praying for a hard brexit then as a soft one will give you less control. Of course it will be dressed up to look like we got what some of you wanted but Ill bet my bottom dollar in five years time all the immigrants from the EU will still be here, we will still be paying in and still part of the single market. I honestly cannot see how we can not be and neither do the majority of our leaders, most of UK business and financial experts. This is why the vote was farcical. The government and parliament are massively pro remain apart from a few fruitloops. Do you really think they are going to pull up the drawbridge, cut us off completely form Europe and leave the single market? To the poster earlier about insulting the intelligence of the voters. Would it be insulting if I had said they were not qualified to organise a space launch to Mars? Its way too complex an issue to allow the public to vote on and decide the future of the nation on just ONE vote. You didnt know at all what you were voting for. You may have thought you did but you didnt. Also to be fair the week after the vote the second most searched for phrase in the UK on Google was "What is the EU?" *-) Only time will tell, I still think we wont leave at least not the way you all thought you were voting for and I still believe the damage will be irreparable and all for nothing if we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Barryd999 - 2016-10-17 11:44 AM pelmetman - 2016-10-17 10:12 AM Barryd999 - 2016-10-16 11:27 PM I suspect you will find once the truth is out and we know what our crap deal is that 4 out of 10 will be more like 9 out of 10. If its a soft brexit Norway type deal surely most people will vote to remain completely as its what we have now just without any say or place at the table. My gut feeling is the opposite........and I also reckon you remainers have shot your bolt.......but that wont stop them trying to pin every downward blip in the economy on BREXIT *-) .......... Besides whats the point of being at the EU table?...........Hasn't done us any good for the last 40 years......except we seem to keep ending up with most of the tab :-| ...... I have noticed a trend lately in Brexiteers mentioning that the remain camp will blame any down turn on Brexit. Especially since the news came out that we may lose £66bn per year on GDP as a result. Makes the £8bn we paid in look like chicken feed. What else are we going to blame if that happens? The French or the Germans? The weather? Why do you think we are so determined to stop it? . There's that word "may" again ;-) ........Good old fashioned scaremongering didn't win the first time, so why do you think it'll make any difference post BREXIT? :-S ......... The only may involved is Teresa May, and up till now she seems to be doing a good job in my book.......I might even vote for her at the next election ;-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-10-17 11:42 AM pelmetman - 2016-10-17 11:30 AM Another post Brexit poll suggests more people would vote leave if there was another referendum B-) ....... http://openeurope.org.uk/today/open-europe-alert/ So be it. You have nothing to worry about Dave. I doubt there will be one though and that's what some remainers beef is. They are incredulous that a man who got a First in PPE at Oxford would not have had the guts to face down the members of his party baying for a referendum on EU membership when he above all people ought to know about the inherent weaknesses in making such a decision based on one. ;-) Looks to me the reason they were baying for a referendum, is because their constituents were "baying" for a referendum too B-) ........... Why do you think UKIP got 4 million votes at the general election? ;-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Barryd999 - 2016-10-17 11:44 AM The point of being at the table (and its a matter of opinion that its done us no good for 40 years) is change has to come and when it does and we are stuck in a Norway type agreement wouldnt you rather we had a say in what laws and rules the EU countries bestow upon us? You lot talk about taking back control well you had better start praying for a hard brexit then as a soft one will give you less control. Of course it will be dressed up to look like we got what some of you wanted but Ill bet my bottom dollar in five years time all the immigrants from the EU will still be here, we will still be paying in and still part of the single market. I honestly cannot see how we can not be and neither do the majority of our leaders, most of UK business and financial experts. . Your assuming of course the EU will still be here? ;-) ...........But you may have a point, perhaps we wont leave, because there wont be a EU left for us to BREXIT from in 2019 >:-) ........ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eurozone-euro-collapse-house-of-cards-ecb-single-currency-a7364826.html Do you think the EU can survive the collapse of the euro? 8-) .........and if it does collapse I suppose that'll be BREXIT's fault to (lol) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Archiesgrandad - 2016-10-16 7:57 PM North Korea .lives on money from China, and only exists because China says it can. AGD China supports North Korea like Britain & America support Saudi Arabia, or Russia supports Syria (all similarly obnoxious regimes) because it gives them a presence in the area. Like Churchil supported Stalin in WW2, Thatcher supported Pinochet in the Falklands etc. War and politics is a dirty business and you can't be too choosy over your allies. Nevertheless, Kim Jong un seems to do what he likes when it comes to setting off nuclear tests without reference to China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-17 1:45 PM Barryd999 - 2016-10-17 11:44 AM The point of being at the table (and its a matter of opinion that its done us no good for 40 years) is change has to come and when it does and we are stuck in a Norway type agreement wouldnt you rather we had a say in what laws and rules the EU countries bestow upon us? You lot talk about taking back control well you had better start praying for a hard brexit then as a soft one will give you less control. Of course it will be dressed up to look like we got what some of you wanted but Ill bet my bottom dollar in five years time all the immigrants from the EU will still be here, we will still be paying in and still part of the single market. I honestly cannot see how we can not be and neither do the majority of our leaders, most of UK business and financial experts. . Your assuming of course the EU will still be here? ;-) ...........But you may have a point, perhaps we wont leave, because there wont be a EU left for us to BREXIT from in 2019 >:-) ........ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eurozone-euro-collapse-house-of-cards-ecb-single-currency-a7364826.html Do you think the EU can survive the collapse of the euro? 8-) .........and if it does collapse I suppose that'll be BREXIT's fault to (lol) ........ I think we can discount that story Dave. Its clearly written by an expert and remember the Brexiteers told us we have had enough of Experts and they are all wrong. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Barryd999 - 2016-10-17 2:20 PM pelmetman - 2016-10-17 1:45 PM Barryd999 - 2016-10-17 11:44 AM The point of being at the table (and its a matter of opinion that its done us no good for 40 years) is change has to come and when it does and we are stuck in a Norway type agreement wouldnt you rather we had a say in what laws and rules the EU countries bestow upon us? You lot talk about taking back control well you had better start praying for a hard brexit then as a soft one will give you less control. Of course it will be dressed up to look like we got what some of you wanted but Ill bet my bottom dollar in five years time all the immigrants from the EU will still be here, we will still be paying in and still part of the single market. I honestly cannot see how we can not be and neither do the majority of our leaders, most of UK business and financial experts. . Your assuming of course the EU will still be here? ;-) ...........But you may have a point, perhaps we wont leave, because there wont be a EU left for us to BREXIT from in 2019 >:-) ........ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eurozone-euro-collapse-house-of-cards-ecb-single-currency-a7364826.html Do you think the EU can survive the collapse of the euro? 8-) .........and if it does collapse I suppose that'll be BREXIT's fault to (lol) ........ I think we can discount that story Dave. Its clearly written by an expert and remember the Brexiteers told us we have had enough of Experts and they are all wrong. :D Yeah with a bit of luck this expert, will be wrong too...... You'd better hope so, or else the EU is in deep do do >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 I suspect there will be a lot of mudslinging from both sides for a long time to come. Most of it will not be based on any facts but conjecture and half truths, so really until we know what the actual deal is going to be, there really is not much point in going through the same arguments over and over again. I can understand the Government wishing to keep its cards close to its chest until they are sitting round the table. The EU side has also not stated anything apart from dire warnings of doom and gloom, but we know that inside that organisation individual countries are working to make deals. Even Italy has today stated that the hard option is not the best way to go, despite Messrs Tusk and Juncker taking umbrage. A pyrrhic victory does neither side any good at all. What is clear is that a majority in the Uk voted too leave in a Referndum that was approved by all sides prior to it being run, and if that is set aside for any reason then having democracy falls apart. Of course we know the EU itself does not believe in democracy and feels it has the divine right to rule and never stands for election. If we follow that path then I despair for the UK. Just how many times does Clegg need to be told he is not wanted I wonder?? As a final thought I am old enough to remember when we were not in the EU and life did manage to go on, somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 I suspect there will be a lot of mudslinging from both sides for a long time to come. Most of it will not be based on any facts but conjecture and half truths, so really until we know what the actual deal is going to be, there really is not much point in going through the same arguments over and over again. I can understand the Government wishing to keep its cards close to its chest until they are sitting round the table. The EU side has also not stated anything apart from dire warnings of doom and gloom, but we know that inside that organisation individual countries are working to make deals. Even Italy has today stated that the hard option is not the best way to go, despite Messrs Tusk and Juncker taking umbrage. A pyrrhic victory does neither side any good at all. What is clear is that a majority in the Uk voted too leave in a Referndum that was approved by all sides prior to it being run, and if that is set aside for any reason then having democracy falls apart. Of course we know the EU itself does not believe in democracy and feels it has the divine right to rule and never stands for election. If we follow that path then I despair for the UK. Just how many times does Clegg need to be told he is not wanted I wonder?? As a final thought I am old enough to remember when we were not in the EU and life did manage to go on, somehow. Of course anyone who is keen to remian in the EU can move to any of the EU countries without hindrance at any time until the deal is done, and even after that they can still move albeit there may be more paperwork, but no one will be barring them, unless they have a criminal record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-17 1:39 PM Violet1956 - 2016-10-17 11:42 AM pelmetman - 2016-10-17 11:30 AM Another post Brexit poll suggests more people would vote leave if there was another referendum B-) ....... http://openeurope.org.uk/today/open-europe-alert/ So be it. You have nothing to worry about Dave. I doubt there will be one though and that's what some remainers beef is. They are incredulous that a man who got a First in PPE at Oxford would not have had the guts to face down the members of his party baying for a referendum on EU membership when he above all people ought to know about the inherent weaknesses in making such a decision based on one. ;-) Looks to me the reason they were baying for a referendum, is because their constituents were "baying" for a referendum too B-) ........... Why do you think UKIP got 4 million votes at the general election? ;-) ........ God only knows Dave they are not a party capable of government. I suspect for the majority who voted for them it was greater control over immigration that floated their boat. That led some to believe that there would be a reduction in net migration as a result of Brexit which we know could never be a guaranteed outcome. I've banged on a lot about this in the past and at risk of being a complete bore I repeat we had controls on migration both from EU countries and outside of it. It was not the free for all that some believed it was. Being starved of sufficient resources and/or inefficiency on the part of the immigration authorities in enforcing existing controls was the problem. Theresa actually was trying to get a grip on it but George didn't let her have sufficient funds to do the job properly when she was HS. She had to drink from one poisoned chalice and now has been passed another IMHO. Veronica Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Bulletguy - 2016-10-15 4:10 PM lennyhb - 2016-10-15 12:08 PM John52 - 2016-10-15 11:30 AM Are you saying you can get more selling your Hymer abroad than you can in the UK? I find that surprising as I thought we went abroad to buy them not sell them, as they cost less abroad. Even more so after the crash in the pound. Yes, I got 25% more compared to what UK dealers were offering another guy on fun had similar results. Foreign dealers don't work on the stupid rip off margins that UK dealers want. Not only did I get over 10k more for my van, also price of the new van is over 10k less than I could get it for in the UK. This will be the 3rd Hymer we have brought from the same Belgium dealer, current van is only 2 years old (will be 3 by the new one delivered), we weren't planning on changing but the deal was so good just had to do it. Also had the same trade in offer from German Carthago dealer, so it's not just a one off. Lenny Your post illustrates perfectly what has long rattled me. But this doesn't just stop at motorhomes or vehicles. As previously mentioned i purchased a camera from the US which, even after paying import and mailing charges cost me £140 less than buying here in UK. A friend of mine was looking for a camera holdall made by LowePro. The best price he could find here in UK was £190. I did a search for him and found a business trading in Canada selling the identical bag at £80......a massive difference. I double checked the model with him then ordered it. Including import and mailing it cost just over £100. When it arrived he opened it up and it was exactly what he'd wanted. But also inside were details of the company it had been exported from to Canada........Wolverhampton.......just 40 miles down the M6 from where we live! When you experience something like that you have to ask yourself WHY are we paying such high prices in the UK? Everyone knows they have to pay tax though i find much of our tax system punitive (fuel is just ONE example!), but couple that to excessive profiteering and it's easy to see why people take their business elsewhere. However not all are greedy, and this is where i'll get a plug in for a UK business! I buy all my accessories from this chap....http://www.thecaravanshop.co.uk/index.php because even with p&p his prices are cheaper than what any local mortohome/caravne accessory dealer charge! Too true, bought a Clarion stereo with satnav for the van, from Germany £120 cheaper than UK and last year 2 Scott e-bikes again from Germany saving £1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 flyboyprowler - 2016-10-15 9:40 PM lennyhb - 2016-10-15 1:08 PM John52 - 2016-10-15 11:30 AM Are you saying you can get more selling your Hymer abroad than you can in the UK? I find that surprising as I thought we went abroad to buy them not sell them, as they cost less abroad. Even more so after the crash in the pound. Yes, I got 25% more compared to what UK dealers were offering another guy on fun had similar results. Foreign dealers don't work on the stupid rip off margins that UK dealers want. Not only did I get over 10k more for my van, also price of the new van is over 10k less than I could get it for in the UK. This will be the 3rd Hymer we have brought from the same Belgium dealer, current van is only 2 years old (will be 3 by the new one delivered), we weren't planning on changing but the deal was so good just had to do it. Also had the same trade in offer from German Carthago dealer, so it's not just a one off. We are also looking to buy in Europe, so was your trade in LHD or RHD, and as mine is RHD, I thought I would be committed to selling in the UK. I want the next van to be LHD, RHD afraid you are stuck with selling the UK. One of the biggest pluses most people don't understand with LHD drive is you can sell and trade them in any country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Like everyone else I have absolutely no idea what the final outcome of the exit negotiations will be, and whilst one would expect politicians both in the UK and the EU to have given some thought to what might happen when we voted, they would all have been aware that it would be quite a while before a few rays of light might start to show through, and give the first few tiny hints of which lines of negotiation might take them towards their preferred outcome. It would be stupid for any of them to start explaining their thoughts, even more so to express them as plans, so sensible governments were probably right to not say anything. As expats living on UK pensions in France we are aware of the decline in the value of the pound, and it does not fill us with joy, and our concerns are not just about whether we can afford tens of thousands of pounds on a new motorhome, and I think the exit vote was the right. No-one can know what the future would have held had there never been a referendum, but it doesn't seem likely that things within Europe would have continued at the same chaotic way for much longer. The Greeks are not happy and will at some point want a better way forward. Elections in any number of European countries are almost certain to cause instability with disastrous implications for the economy. Immigration is really going to continue to be a problem, countries, mostly in Eastern Europe, that have only recently joined the EU are going to want the same favourable treatment that was given to other basket case nations when they signed up, and will not be happy when they don't get it. There is so much that was going wrong, and was never right, within the EU, that it made very little sense to have joined in the first place, and even less sense in staying a part of it. I'm sorry that some of you are disappointed with what has happened, but I think that things had to change, and regardless of all else, we were bound to experience European, possible World, financial disruption with all that involves. Out of Europe we will be better able to work out our own salvation, and re-establish our country as a prosperous and democratic force , and work with our friends and neighbours to help those less fortunate than ourselves. Try to take less notice of the outpouring of tired old cliches being heaped on us by hacks and politicians. Think through some of the foolish claims and accusations being made by politicians and journalists and ask your self whether you can really see it happening that way. Above all, try to help portray the UK as a country that is going to come through this OK. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-10-17 10:13 AM Rayjsj - 2016-10-17 9:13 AM Saying,, as some do, that the population was not qualified to vote in the Referendum is very insulting, we knew exactly what we were voting for, and we won, not by a huge margin it is true, but by enough. Thats Democracy. I don't think it is insulting to say that people were not qualified to vote in the referendum on the basis that they didn't know what they were voting for. They couldn't know what deal we would get in the end, the complexities were endless and only predictions could be given to them about the effect on the economy and whether there would be fewer migrants etc. That was the essential weakness in the Yes/No vote and why many political theorists would hold that whilst a referendum is a form of democracy it is not as good as a representative democracy in which people making the decisions i.e. parliament are accountable for them if they get it wrong. That is why there is a call from some quarters for a further referendum once the details of the deal are established. That is not anti-democratic, quite the contrary. Veronica Veronica, Exactly the same argument could be made about the Referendum that was held on taking us INTO the Common Market ( i voted IN that time) in 1975 or was it 1972 ? We were told that joining would herald a golden age for British manufactured goods into Europe....... it didnt happen. Mass unemployement followed as one after the other our manufacturing companies were either closed or taken over by foreign companies.Who then sold to us, goods we once made ourselves . We were not told this would happen either. But the result of the Referendum was NOT re-run. The result of the vote should stand, anything else will destroy any faith in democracy, for me anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Rayjsj - 2016-10-18 11:10 AM . Mass unemployement followed as one after the other our manufacturing companies were either closed or taken over by foreign companies. Do you blame the EU for Thatcher and Blair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Rayjsj - 2016-10-18 11:10 AM We were told that joining would herald a golden age for British manufactured goods into Europe....... it didnt happen. Some of it did happen. Since the much maligned British car workers have been under foreign management they have done very well indeed. But the foreign car companies only came here because we were in the EU, because they depend on a complex supply chain that only works with the free trade guaranteed by the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 John52 - 2016-10-18 11:44 AM Rayjsj - 2016-10-18 11:10 AM . Mass unemployement followed as one after the other our manufacturing companies were either closed or taken over by foreign companies. Do you blame the EU for Thatcher and Blair? Did the EU not give Mr Ford millions to relocate the Transit factory to Turkey from Southampton? *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Archiesgrandad - 2016-10-17 10:22 PM Like everyone else I have absolutely no idea what the final outcome of the exit negotiations will be, and whilst one would expect politicians both in the UK and the EU to have given some thought to what might happen when we voted, they would all have been aware that it would be quite a while before a few rays of light might start to show through, and give the first few tiny hints of which lines of negotiation might take them towards their preferred outcome. It would be stupid for any of them to start explaining their thoughts, even more so to express them as plans, so sensible governments were probably right to not say anything. As expats living on UK pensions in France we are aware of the decline in the value of the pound, and it does not fill us with joy, and our concerns are not just about whether we can afford tens of thousands of pounds on a new motorhome, and I think the exit vote was the right. No-one can know what the future would have held had there never been a referendum, but it doesn't seem likely that things within Europe would have continued at the same chaotic way for much longer. The Greeks are not happy and will at some point want a better way forward. Elections in any number of European countries are almost certain to cause instability with disastrous implications for the economy. Immigration is really going to continue to be a problem, countries, mostly in Eastern Europe, that have only recently joined the EU are going to want the same favourable treatment that was given to other basket case nations when they signed up, and will not be happy when they don't get it. There is so much that was going wrong, and was never right, within the EU, that it made very little sense to have joined in the first place, and even less sense in staying a part of it. I'm sorry that some of you are disappointed with what has happened, but I think that things had to change, and regardless of all else, we were bound to experience European, possible World, financial disruption with all that involves. Out of Europe we will be better able to work out our own salvation, and re-establish our country as a prosperous and democratic force , and work with our friends and neighbours to help those less fortunate than ourselves. Try to take less notice of the outpouring of tired old cliches being heaped on us by hacks and politicians. Think through some of the foolish claims and accusations being made by politicians and journalists and ask your self whether you can really see it happening that way. Above all, try to help portray the UK as a country that is going to come through this OK. AGD As expats living in France, I don't think the UK pension has anything to do with in/out the EU. We have found over the last 2/3 years that France is becoming a very expensive place to shop in. The food costs have gone up way beyond the cost in UK, hence when we come over we bring many things for our our expat friends living there,Ok they are UK items , which are even more pricey in France. and the choice is smaller than in UK. As you have decided to live in France, then , why should you worry about us who prefer to stay here. You will still get your UK pension, Xmas box and fuel allowance, though maybe once we leave the EU , maybe you will not get the extra pension goodies I do not object to expats getting the pension they paid into, it is your right, but the extras , should be for the needy pensioners, and not given out en mass. We get the fuel allowance but . could survive without it. I feel sorry for the poor pensioners who have to survive on just the pension I hope benefits will be changed and not given , as the present system . After all , the people on here , can't be hard up, as they have a luxury motorhome, some more expensive than a house in some parts of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-10-17 10:13 AM Rayjsj - 2016-10-17 9:13 AM Saying,, as some do, that the population was not qualified to vote in the Referendum is very insulting, we knew exactly what we were voting for, and we won, not by a huge margin it is true, but by enough. Thats Democracy. I don't think it is insulting to say that people were not qualified to vote in the referendum on the basis that they didn't know what they were voting for. They couldn't know what deal we would get in the end, the complexities were endless and only predictions could be given to them about the effect on the economy and whether there would be fewer migrants etc. That was the essential weakness in the Yes/No vote and why many political theorists would hold that whilst a referendum is a form of democracy it is not as good as a representative democracy in which people making the decisions i.e. parliament are accountable for them if they get it wrong. That is why there is a call from some quarters for a further referendum once the details of the deal are established. That is not anti-democratic, quite the contrary. Veronica Veronica, Exactly the same argument could be made about the Referendum that was held on taking us INTO the Common Market ( i voted IN that time) in 1975 or was it 1972 ? We were told that joining would herald a golden age for British manufactured goods into Europe....... it didnt happen. Mass unemployement followed as one after the other our manufacturing companies were either closed or taken over by foreign companies.Who then sold to us, goods we once made ourselves . We were not told this would happen either. But the result of the Referendum was NOT re-run. The result of the vote should stand, anything else will destroy any faith in democracy, for me anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Violet1956 - 2016-10-17 10:13 AM Rayjsj - 2016-10-17 9:13 AM Saying,, as some do, that the population was not qualified to vote in the Referendum is very insulting, we knew exactly what we were voting for, and we won, not by a huge margin it is true, but by enough. Thats Democracy. I don't think it is insulting to say that people were not qualified to vote in the referendum on the basis that they didn't know what they were voting for. They couldn't know what deal we would get in the end, the complexities were endless and only predictions could be given to them about the effect on the economy and whether there would be fewer migrants etc. That was the essential weakness in the Yes/No vote and why many political theorists would hold that whilst a referendum is a form of democracy it is not as good as a representative democracy in which people making the decisions i.e. parliament are accountable for them if they get it wrong. That is why there is a call from some quarters for a further referendum once the details of the deal are established. That is not anti-democratic, quite the contrary. Veronica The 2 main moaners for a second referendum are 2 of the biggest political losers in recent times , Nick Clegg and Dead Milliband ... Kinda says a lot about the moaners really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Funny how we were qualified to vote to join.....but not to leave *-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-18 5:45 PM Funny how we were qualified to vote to join.....but not to leave *-) ....... Your on form Dave ... Double like from me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-10-18 5:39 PM The 2 main moaners for a second referendum are 2 of the biggest political losers in recent times , Nick Clegg and Dead Milliband ... Kinda says a lot about the moaners really Thats just Ad Hominem isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 pelmetman - 2016-10-18 5:45 PM Funny how we were qualified to vote to join.....but not to leave *-) ....... No one has said we were qualfied to vote to join although some of us obviously think that on balace it was a good thing that we did, some of us are not so sure, and some of us think it was one of the worst things we ever did. The inherent weakness in using referenda remain as far as securing the effective governance of a country is concerned. One example being (and I know it is not a popular view on here) that a much higher proportion of the people whose likely future spans decades voted to remain than those who do not have such a life span left, the latter being most protected from the possible, some say probable adverse outcomes of voting to leave. The potential loss to younger people in terms of jobs and rises in the cost of living when they are usually on low incomes to start with as compared with the increased price of a motorhome and the rise in the cost of go abroad on holiday for retired baby boomers on final salary indexed linked pensions speaks volumes to me about the bias on this forum. The so called "tyranny of the majority" has prevailed for the relatively short term over which a large proportion of that majority who voted in favour of Brexit will get to benefit from the outcome they desired. A representative democracy has a much wider perview in that our elected representatives have to strive to make decisions that serve as far as possible the interests of all members of society and consider the potential long term effect of any change in policy before changing it. They are also accountable for any bad policy decisions they make. Veronica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-10-18 5:39 PM The 2 main moaners for a second referendum are 2 of the biggest political losers in recent times , Nick Clegg and Dead Milliband ... Kinda says a lot about the moaners really Really? You forgot what this bloke said about a second referendum!! http://www.briefreport.co.uk/news/remember-that-time-nigel-farage-said-52-48-votes-should-lead-to-second-referendum-4225477.html So did he because it quickly got hushed up once the result rolled in. Now of course he's busy promoting UKIP boxing matches and a spot of pr work for The Donald. *-) As for Miliband, well far from banging on about a second referendum he actually got heckled at the Labour conference for telling them NOT to campaign for one. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3806799/Ed-Miliband-heckled-Labour-member-tells-party-NOT-campaign-second-EU-referendum.html. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.