alko amc rear axle(s) GREASING

[Brian Kirby]

Steve928 - 2016-11-09 1:42 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2016-11-09 1:06 PM

 

Why, so it was! My apologies to nimod for overlooking his link.

 

Ahem, check post #3 in the thread perhaps.. I've let slip Nimod taking my glory once already but twice is pushing it.. :-D

Ahem, ahem! Ooops! :$

[keninpalamos]

747 - 2016-11-09 6:20 PM

 

keninpalamos - 2016-11-09 5:27 PM

 

747 - 2016-11-09 3:21 PM

 

Muswell - 2016-11-09 1:24 PM

 

I am a bit surprised to find that £70 000 ish motorhomes are sitting on a bit of third world engineering.

 

You forgot about the handbrake setup.

 

That was copied from a 4th Century Roman Baggage Cart. 8-)

I knew it! Hello Brian :D :D

 

I am NOT the Messiah, I am just a very naughty boy. :->

:D

[Derek Uzzell]

This earlier forum thread

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/greasing-back-axle/2246/

 

suggests that, way back when, a motorhome-suitable Al-Ko axle could have grease nipples on the axle’s top (which would be an inconvenient place to put them if the nipples were within the chasiss rails.).

 

These links may be of interest

 

http://zappysblog.co.uk/motorhome-articles/al-ko-vehicle-chassis-maintenance/

 

http://zappysblog.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/AlKo-Chassis-Maintenace.pdf

 

http://www.carsupport.nl/Download/Carsupport-Alko-Springs-UK.pdf

[747]

It would be a lot easier to use one of these grease nipples with top fitting grease points.

 

http://tinyurl.com/hnulox8

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I would have thought that a 90-degree angled nipple would a better choice (example here)

 

http://uk.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/110300260250/

 

But if a top-mounted nipple is inside the Al-Ko chassis’s rails, there’s a good chance the motorhome converter may have made it near-impossible to reach by sticking things like water-tanks near to the axle-tube.

 

 

 

 

[747]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-11-10 12:15 PM

 

I would have thought that a 90-degree angled nipple would a better choice (example here)

 

http://uk.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/110300260250/

 

But if a top-mounted nipple is inside the Al-Ko chassis’s rails, there’s a good chance the motorhome converter may have made it near-impossible to reach by sticking things like water-tanks near to the axle-tube.

 

 

 

 

But what if the nipple is pointing the wrong way when tightened?

 

Do you back it off slightly (therefore loose) or dog it up and risk stripping the thread.

 

With the other type, the fitting slips over the hex and you have multiple choices of which side to attack it from.

[Derek Uzzell]

OK - I’ve never encountered a button-head grease nipple.

 

Presumably a garage will have the necessary coupler for it, though I’m uncertain that Joe Public’s grease-gun would. (I’ve got two grease-guns and both work only with the common-or-garden 'push-on’ nipple.

[747]

You are right in thinking that a Garage will have one as in my link. That one I have shown is a fixed metal tube but they can also be fitted to flexi hoses as well. They are more common in Industrial uses but can be used anywhere and are more robust than the standard type.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Grease-Gun-Adapter-for-SP21-Slide-On-Grease-Fittings-qty-1-K-/182349614974?hash=item2a74e24f7e:g:hTgAAOSwNSxVNk7O

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Your grease gun pressure is ok when you see grease passing the outer mud seal. That means it is also passing the inner which happens at about 30 psig. and normally the same for the bush on the end of the swing arm which have no grease seals. There is no interference between left and right about filling the axle tube. So if you have a 1980 Tyre axle with 73cm long torsion and three dia 2cm bars in a 8cm inner tube there is space.There is interference load on all 4 bushings when jacking one side. The only reason why alko have grease free axles on ALC, X2 and X4 is the relaxed load pattern on the swing arm. Proven in their cycle tests.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

John Wickersham is no longer whit us . I miss him dearly.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

That hole in the two bushings has nothing to do with the one grease injecting hole position. The longitudinal split is for mounting tolerances it is closed in final press fit. Only the splits and the holes should face each other axial.

[747]

The usual rule of thumb for clearance between a Bush and a moving Shaft is 0.001" per 1" of Shaft dia. which would be 0.01 mm per 1 cm. If the Shaft* diameter is 73 mm (as stated), the clearance between Bush and Shaft will be around 0.003" or 0.03 mm from new. That is plenty of clearance for grease to pass through.

 

* I have used the word 'shaft' in place of the longer Torsion Bar assembly for simplicity.

[Derek Uzzell]

Studying the video on the Fraser Brown website will reveal from the wear-marks on the damaged Al-Ko axle ’pin’ shown there where the bearing-bushes are and how Al-Ko’s greasing method is supposed to work.

 

There are an inner and an outer bearing-bush spaced fairly widely apart and in the axle’s outer casing is screwed a single grease-nipple through which grease can be pumped under pressure into the space between the bushes. The inner surface of a bush is a ‘plastic’ material and, when pressure builds up in the space between the bushes, grease is expected to find its way between the pin and the bush's inner surface.

 

Fraser Brown modifies Al-Ko’s greasing system by machining a groove into each bearing-bush's inner surface and drilling in the axle-casing a hole that matches up with that groove. Into each hole a grease-nipple (or a remote greasing-connection) is screwed. Grease can now go directly into the centre of each individual bush and can move outwards to the bush's outer edges, unlike with Al-Ko’s original methodology where the grease has to penetrate into the ‘gap’ between the pin and bush’s inner surface inwards from one edge of the bush.

 

Monique has said that the "hole in the two bushings has nothing to do with the one grease injecting hole position” and that’s clear from the Fraser Brown video. But the hole presumably has a design purpose and, logically, this will be to provide an entry-point for lubrication. It’s probable that the bushes Al-Ko uses are mass-produced items and that the reason for not fitting a grease-nipple per bush is that it simplifies the axle manufacturing process.

 

It may be (as Monique mentions regarding Al-Ko’s ’no greasing’ axles) that Al-Ko’s own testing has shown that regularly greasing via a single between-bushes nipple provides adequate lubrication, but lubricating each bush individually and directly must surely be a superior method.

[keninpalamos]

I keep hearing about the bushes being plastic. Or rather the inner surface being made of a perforated plastic lining and the main body of the bush being of copper I have a set of bushes in front of me now and to my surprise this is correct! I learnt something quite new today and a bit scary to know my van is sat on 2-3 thousandth of an inch of plastic . :-(

[747]

keninpalamos - 2016-11-11 9:50 AM

 

I keep hearing about the bushes being plastic. Or rather the inner surface being made of a perforated plastic lining and the main body of the bush being of copper I have a set of bushes in front of me now and to my surprise this is correct! I learnt something quite new today and a bit scary to know my van is sat on 2-3 thousandth of an inch of plastic . :-(

 

Not strictly true Ken.

 

It is a sintered Bronze split bush and the Bronze is dimpled on the inside. The plastic is just a filler to return the inside diameter to a smooth finish. The plastic is not load bearing.

 

These bushes (and most Brass bushes) should come with a clearance hole in them. The hole needs to be sited so that any grease pumped in is pumped directly into the Bush itself. The Bushes can come ready grooved with grease paths, or blank, necessitating the need for a Fitter to manually create a path for the grease.

 

I agree that siting one grease nipple between 2 Bushes is a pretty poor way of lubricating them. However, these are not rotating parts and there is only a very small rotational movement occasionally, so a little grease can go a long way.

[Brian Kirby]

I agree that the amount of movement is relatively small, but surely once the van is in motion that movement is more or less continuous, and at relatively high frequency/speed - especially in UK :-) ?

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

These tolerances are defined in numbers ask alko what they use in louhans france where your axle is assembled. If the bushes and swing arm have more than 0.5 mm play acc the dunlop method it is out of tolerance. Make a appointment with Fraser scotland and combine it with a nice trip. The same i do when going to alko to fit full air suspension x4 to my high frame axle in spring time whit a no nipple axle. At the same time i put air assist seats so i can stretch my legs on the dash with cruise control.Alko copied a lot patents in the usa ending up in buying Dexter. The most famous grease method is the german Stauffer nipple invented for railway axle.Every week they turn the top a few turns to put the old grease out and the new one in. I will keep you informed after my visit in next spring 2017 to alko kotz.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Perfect comment by Derek. About the spit and the hole refer to the manufacturer. The inside is not some plastic whit the multiple dotted spots which can run grease free. For alko they have a run in purpose.There are 10 roughness scales on the Rupert table about the machining of the swing arm and the honing of the axle tube.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

We are near closing time (Tom Waits) about our topic. Some high lights: The only way to make sure some grease enter your bearings is a full lift of your axle(axles). If you grease this way your axle can compete whit the more expensive no grease nipple version. Their air suspension is approved and designed to adept to their original chassis without any drilling and lightweight shaped slim fit consoles. Golds-mitt and VB can not compete whit their welded brackets and drilling in paint it just does not fit to our beloved alko chassis. Latest invention however by VB is a intelligent shock absorb-er whit millisecond reaction at a extra price in addition to full 4c of about 5000 euro and 500 adept. Performance breathtaking. This is not the end we are going to BEV Rv vehicles. Alko has already a proto type just add the cabin and the house and a small hydrogen hp tank . Fuel cell cars are the future as was was proven by the zeppelin balloon.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

I thought to forget Al-Ko for some time. But it does not since i planned to put full air suspension on my burstner aviano I728G. I stands for integral and G for garage. 728 is some indication of the length used by all others but very confusing. Chassis cowl fiat ducato in Italian Scudato Motrice. Their EC approval is still X250 Structural code named for the front apart from the late complete X290 Ducato. See also Euro 6 engines and new gearbox in the 150hp and downsize of cc. No AD-Blue. I have three COC approvals. Fiat-Al-Ko-Burstner. The first two not being a Mobil home. What happens if you put air suspension Retrofit on a Al-Ko Chassis ? Maybe a New topic?

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Influence of air suspension of a 8 inch air spring. 1-6 Bars gouge : 314 kg 628 kg 942 kg 1256 kg 1570 kg 1884 kg.

[Derek Uzzell]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2016-11-18 4:44 PM

 

...What happens if you put air suspension Retrofit on a Al-Ko Chassis ? Maybe a New topic?

 

There was a 4-page article in the July 2016 of the French motorhome magazine “Camping-Car” that discussed various Al-Ko suspension options that could be retrofitted. Three Carthago Chic C-Line A-Class motorhomes (each fitted with a different Al-Ko system) were all driven by ‘non-professional’ motorcaravanners who provided comments about the experience and which system they liked best. Interestingly not everybody preferred the most expensive ‘full air’ system.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Yes i read it too,but i go for the full Monty. At Al-Ko Kotz you can test drive them too in all versions . This season they change to Hymer Test cars. Also interesting Niessmann- Bischof offer only Goldsmitt. VB is similar to alko but not their adaption consoles. About the retrofit national approval be care full and check first. If you buy new with air all is covered on paper. This is what i find out the way it goes in germany about this so called rebuilt afterwards.You have three documents The final COC, and Ec type approvals for your chassis cowl and your chassis. If it is alko all options are also Ec approved including air. And can be retrofiited without any third party inspection or paper work if fitted by alko. Not in belgium, only if the final coc proves this by yes/no/optional. If not further inspection is required. Still working on this the coc only refers to the type approval. To be continued.How in The Uk ?

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Some extra detail extra about air is that your ESC system is tested or you get extra geometry in inspection.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Follow up: Burstner I728G W/Alko high frame zero drop. Car papers EC 2007/46.Three coc: fiat/alko/burstner. The last one gives you road legal. The other two are not just notes but form an integral part of the car papers.The burstner final coc can never be changed afterwards. If you go for alko air original options on their chassis which are included in their A/M approval no inspection is required. However adaption only by alko. All other cases need to be checked to keep road legal.