monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 2, 2016 Author Share Posted December 2, 2016 If you VIN number start whit ZFA 290 you can have a fiat ducato built yesterday. if you have motorhome built yesterday it still can start whit ZFA 250. Since fiat sevel in italy is the only one who has a separate line for incomplete vehicles you may tell me when they use 250 or 290? In any case if our alko friends come in it will be 250. It takes me a lot of effort to see a chassis cowl leaving the production line in sevel .And to see how they make it. Never or never it is on you tube.The same of the assembly of our AMC- Axles which has never be exposed. Did you see a high frame alko axle ? It is not high but has a completely different suspension. It is still popular so i suggest to open a topic on this type . You have more than 220 cm space up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 The only thing you have to keep in mind is this: If your motor home has dry weight of 3100 kg add 800 kg to it to keep realistic . In case of the ducato you need a maxi chassis. Which you still can drive whit B or higher. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 Question to Derek: in case of a integral motor home with a alko chassis and fiat chassis cowl How final weight matters are established by the final builder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 There will be final-weight implications from the very beginning as the Ducato ‘cowl’ or cab’ section may be a ‘light’ or ‘heavy’ variiant. When the Al-Ko chassis is added, the probable final weight will become clearer - for example, if the Al-Ko chassis has tandem rear axles rather than a single axle, it may be assumed that a motorhome (integral or not) built on the former chassis will be heavier than one built on the latter chassis. From that point on it will be up to the motorhome manufacturer how heavy the vehicle ends up. There will be finite weight maxima defined by Fiat and Al-Ko and the motorhome manufacturer will need to ensure that these are not exceeded. If the motorhome manufacturer uses lightweight construction, the result will be more available payload than if heavier construction methods are employed. There are also formulae that define how a motorhome’s ‘payload’ should be calculated. (I’m not sure if the above is relevant, as I don’t really understand your question.) Regarding your earlier posting "The only thing you have to keep in mind is this: If your motor home has dry weight of 3100 kg add 800 kg to it to keep realistic . In case of the ducato you need a maxi chassis. Which you still can drive whit B or higher." It will legal for motorists with just a “B” driving-licence entitlement to drive a motorhome based on a ‘maxi’ chassis Ducato, but only if the vehicle’s maximum authorised overall weight does not exceed 3500kg. For the “B” entitlement it’s the 3500kg that matters, not a vehicle’s chassis specification. If by “dry weight” you mean the motorhome’s weight with no allowance for a driver, fuel, water, gas, passengers, baggage, etc. I’d agree that, if that weight-figure were 3100kg, it would be necessary to opt for a vehicle with a maximum overall weight well above 3500kg. But motorhome manufacturers nowadays will always include an allowance for a driver and fuel when quoting a motorhome’s basic weight. A compact Ducato-based coachbuilt motorhome’s weight in ‘running order’ (ie. including weight allowances for a driver and fuel) is likely to be around 2700kg, leaving 800kg to play with and still not exceed 3500kg. 800kg seems a helluva lot of payload to define as a realistic requirement unless one is proposing to smuggle gold bullion or carry extraordinarily heavy passengers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 4, 2016 Author Share Posted December 4, 2016 Here comes the puzzle: The weight matters of a chassis cowl are very different among the variants of the other.The pull tractor with two wheels. W/O the ladder of fiat but with AL-KO. Are these cowls called fiat light and maxi? and what is the weight diff? Still speaking about a integral MH. In case of alko you can gain up to 100 kg.On the fiat interface whit alko which is simlilar for high or low or everying in between alko cames up whit chassis to comply whit the tractor limits and their own. The maxi chassis cowl has different brakes and a stiffer strut spring .That is all. Not a clue how their Italian coc should be read. Not a clue how a chassis cowl light fiat 3500 be upgraded to the maximum of 3850. About the dry weight+ of 800 kg consider: Whatever you want for pleasure you name it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 As you are heading off to Al-Ko at Louhans to have your motorhome modified, you may be able to obtain that information from there. Once you reach this level of technical detail, the chances of expert feedback from motorhome forums become very low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 5, 2016 Author Share Posted December 5, 2016 I am heading for full air to alko or goldsmitt. Vb has no brackets yet for the high frame alko. I will report fully about this exercise.And matters of retrofit weight upgrades on fiat. In the meantime just relax and be happy with your motor caravan. The only thing that matters is the id plates on the traverse under the bonnet of your ducato. What ever you do afterwards could be a infringement. In Belgium cop licence holders who act like car companies may alter these plates but not whit the approval of fiat and burstner in my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 5, 2016 Author Share Posted December 5, 2016 Warning to alko torsion bar axle drivers in the three piece version.If one is broken of the sound of a bullet during driving all three need to be replaced. So keep your swing arms swiftly in grease that they can do their work but at some time they like to be retired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 5, 2016 Author Share Posted December 5, 2016 And do not forget on alko on the end of the swing arms fiat is their again. Be sure of the interface between them. Their are some intelligent cables running be sure which is alko and fiat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 6, 2016 Author Share Posted December 6, 2016 Fiat light can supply pulls up to 3850 max.The same for alko if applicable. But there is some figure in fiat of 3650 max in their coc. What the hell does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 7, 2016 Author Share Posted December 7, 2016 Reading hundreds of comments on this beautiful site about the fiat light which really means light however not used by fiat they speak about standard chassis.. I now focus on a tractor to become a integral motor home with a alko chassis. I ordered one and was warned by the dealer having a b licence that a plate of 3500 kg was risky so he advice me to built to coc 3850 which is possible on the light being the maximum:for extra money. But the tractor is exactly the same in 3500.3700.and 3850 having 1850-2000 axle max loads .What is roger rabbit here? Big surprise about the delivery reading the car papers: fiat 3650,alko 3850,burstner 3700. like a box of chocolates. You never....And whit alde heating free of charge. What should be possible having C1 to run on a 3850 plate? Fiat says our data with the strange 3650 can not be changed as part of the type approval. Alko says we have 3500.3700,3850 axles on the light. As ordered by the builder. But the tractor loads being the base vehicle should be compatible in regards to axle loads. The rear axle of a alko chassis is fiat in regards what is added to the swing arms. So we have two plates Alko and fiat both show the same axle loads. Once and for all what is this. And their are technical tolerances of 10 percent by alko. In belgium the 5 percent extra on the driving is not legal. Above 3500 you are in trouble whit some discussion the water tank switch valve 60/120 is such a case.Any comments are appreciated in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 I don’t think UK motorcaravanners care much about that level of weight-related fine detail. My Rapido 640F motorhome is built on a Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis (Rapido uses ‘LIGHT’ and ‘HEAVY’ to describe chassis in their technical leaflets irrespective of the leaflet’s language being English, French, German, etc.) I knew when I ordered the motorhome that it could be supplied with a gross vehicle weight (GVW) of 3500kg or 3650kg and I chose the former. If I had opted for a 666F model, I could have ordered it on a ‘light’ chassis (at 3500kg or 3650kg GVW) or on a ‘heavy’ chassis at 4250kg or 4400kg GVW. For Al-Ko chassis Rapido motorhomes, GVWs for ‘light’ chassis were 3500kg or 3700kg, 4400kg for ‘heavy’ single-rear-axle chassis, or 5000kg for ‘heavy’ tandem-rear-axle chassis. Where driving-licence entitlements are concerned, as long as a potential buyer of a new motorhome is aware of the GVWs available for the vehicle he/she is interested in and chooses accordingly, why should buyers concern themselves about why the GVW values are what they are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 8, 2016 Author Share Posted December 8, 2016 Fully agree what you said. But if he/she having a fiat standard pull which can be GVW or now MAM? paper i repeat paper upgraded to their maximum axle loads why not? Against his bumps no matter depends of your loads. But you are road legal if you change licence to add 350 kg.The standard fiat and not the light which was invented by the aftermarket to make a difference whit the maxi/heavy has a max MAM of 3650 and not 3850. That being the sum of the max axle loads but not the MAM. For the my 2017 Rv introduced 36.5L which is correct towards fiat as being the super light. For money the paper work can be upgraded to 3850 max.Excluding plate ID.We all now that something-up to the limit is going on here who cares. The yearly average mileage is 5000km. I go for goldsmitt full air reading out axle loads by smart phone with five percent tolerance to confuse the Belgians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 9, 2016 Author Share Posted December 9, 2016 After a long chat whit alko retrofit manager here comes the verdict we all waiting for a long time. He said i make similar chats four times a week.There we go: The alko grease or no grease is the same apart from price tag. Do not worry between the two.Both are tested fitness for purpose. About the mam upgrading: The only thing that matters is the limit of the brakes.For a fiat standard 3850 kg. And all lower load combinations wanted such as a trailer. Most overloads are on the rear axle. Always check your individual axle loads and not the total load.Fiat does not stipulate or publish 3850 kg figures its the RV world who invented them. And with the approval of fiat so as what ever you want but not above 3850. That being said fiat-alko- builder are well informed about this but fail to make it clear to the user to gain 350 kilograms if you feel fit. This does not relate to fiat heavy but you have strange bird in between the35H you can go up or down but have the right brakes. It makes no sense to call fiat- alko but call your dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 9, 2016 Author Share Posted December 9, 2016 All options of AL-KO are included in their basic type approval regarding their chassis. Just find the right place to fit them. And read your car papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 10, 2016 Author Share Posted December 10, 2016 What do we have learned is this: That a fiat ducato standard is used in the RV segment up to max axle loads 3850 kg. So technically a overload of 350kg is no problem if well distributed. Most drivers in our club have this weight. Do not pay any money to reach 3850kg by the after market and end up with a series of different weight plates under your bonnet. Who is going to find these extra 350 kg? Just drive almost liquid free . Why you have to pay money for a upgrade of a new motorhome to 3850 kg? It makes no sense and its just money making.Do not drive to France with a full water tank and 120L of diesel if the price is cheaper. That play around 3500 kg is just a big frustration. Why we are in the dark against the the 7500kgs standing beside you with their air suspension and hydraulic lifts sitting high up looking at big Tv screens? Why we should worry about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 10, 2016 Author Share Posted December 10, 2016 Derek just look in your rapido fiat document and i bet whit you the figure 3650 appears in case of a chassis cowl. Adding an alko to it things are changed not sure of the fiat ladder data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 10, 2016 Author Share Posted December 10, 2016 Some extra between 3500-3850: if 3700 towing reduced to 1800kg if 3850 to 1650. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 monique.hubrechts@gm - 2016-12-10 4:49 PM Derek just look in your rapido fiat document and i bet whit you the figure 3650 appears in case of a chassis cowl. Adding an alko to it things are changed not sure of the fiat ladder data. What “rapido fiat document” would that be? My Rapido 640F motorhome has two data-plates in the engine compartment - one is a ‘ first stage’ Fiat plate giving a PTAC of 3650kg and applying to the Ducato chassis, and the other is a ‘final stage’ Rapido plate giving a PTAC of 3500kg and applying to the completed motorhome. The only relevant Rapido documentation I have defines the motorhome’s technical specification - Fiat ‘light chassis, PTAC = 3500, motor power = 150CH, 6-speed manual gearbox, etc. There’s nothing in the documentation about the PTAC of Ducato cabs/cowls intended to receive an Al-Ko chassis, which is hardly surprising as the 640F model is built on a Ducato camping-car chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 11, 2016 Author Share Posted December 11, 2016 So that proved my point that a fiat light is a 36.5L. However mostly said 35L. About your Rapido having two plates on the cooling structure traverse is correct. You should have two documents one from fiat and Rapido. There should be a another for the house ID from Rapido somewhere.The fiat chassis number is also stamped on the passenger side in my case on the right in a very hidden position. You should be able to read this by a flash light.In case of a alko chassis there is a third plate on the traverse and Id on the alko axle itself. That 36.5l means that your fiat is designed for 3650kg. Their is no difference about any conversion if all is fiat.So we have fiat whit 150 kg above 3500 and 3850 kg axles.The Rv world said how we get out the max of that light chassis and gain an approval never seen on paper to utilize the maximum of their axle loads brakes and suspension and 15 inch tyres with the right load index followed by Michelin with their agile s CP tires M+S. Alko follow this limit whit their 38 l chassis but fiat rear brakes but two water tanks lighter and all the benefits of their chassis not saying that it is stronger than the painted fiat. Again if you buy new have a 3850 plated one and run whit B or higher. If you drive the above or a maxi you feel the difference at 3850 kg the maxi is more stable. you are running on suspension limits but that can be relaxed by Al-Ko or goldsmitt to name a few. Thats what i do. There is a safety factor built in about the stress limits. Still study if the alko grease bearings are relaxed in case of air assist. One thing for sure the weight is not disappearing in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 12, 2016 Author Share Posted December 12, 2016 Today i checked several motor home dealers about the increase in weight to 3850kg on the fiat 36.5L and why you have pay extra money to have 3850 papers and corresponding plate on your fiat. Nobody knows. Burstner said if you move from a 3500 kg B licence from the line to another max 3850 kg means cost. Afterwards we can supply upgrade plates and coc amendments. But better order in the first place a fiat ducato light to 3850Kg. In case of running this weight actually do some tuning to relax your axles and distribute the load away from your axles to the chassis still standing their some where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 I’m guessing that the Ducato ‘light’ with camping-car chassis became available with a PTAC of 3650kg in mid-2011 when Euro 5 motors were introduced, but the 3650kg PTAC was certainly there in 2012 as this earlier forum discussion reveals. http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Burstner-weight-plate-Fiat-weight-plate-question/28007/ To the best of my knowledge it is not possible (and never has been possible) to specify a new Ducato ‘light’ with camping-car chassis with a PTAC of 3850kg, the highest PTAC offered by Fiat being 3650kg. It is possible, though, to have a 3850kg PTAC if the Ducato ‘light’ has an Al-Ko chassis and that’s also been true for some time. If a motorhome based on a ‘light’ Ducato chassis can be specified with two PTAC values, and a buyer knows that there will be payload issues at the lower value, it would plainly be common sense to choose the higher figure at the onset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 13, 2016 Author Share Posted December 13, 2016 The movement in the rear wheel arches on the rear with 15 or 16 inch wheels or now up to 18 inch is defined by alko. At the same you are running of multiple settings of your swing arms relating to ride height position.If you have full air you can do it by smart phone. And eventually in the future road dependent in mills seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted December 14, 2016 Author Share Posted December 14, 2016 This morning i visited my dealer and in the showroom new ducatos anounced fiat light had a sign plate 3500 driver B or 3650 driver C and i get a smile on my face. I asked him what is technically the difference he said nothing except the plate.I asked can i have 3850? Yes depending on the model as an option sometimes with a extra leaf spring on the rear. What about the tyre size he said this weight category fiat light has now 225 , 16 inch tyres. But not the brakes and suspension of the heavy chassis. So we have three different MAM plates in case of a fiat ducato with a CCS chassis 15 cm lower than a regular fiat commercial only detectable by the L/R front runners. Can anyone on this site show me a 3850 plate on the traverse of the cooling structure. Alko excluded that is a difference between day and night I am now focused to get the max out of a fiat 3850/Alko on 15 inch wheels with relaxing full air suspension alko and hydraulic feets with a interface between them. Yes still under 3500kg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 14, 2016 Share Posted December 14, 2016 Your dealer’s advice is incorrect. As I said above, a Ducato ‘light’ with camping-car chassis can have a maximum PTAC of 3650kg, whereas a Ducato ‘light’ with Al-Ko chassis can have a maximum PTAC of 3850kg. This should be clear from these two 2017 Adria technical-data files http://fr.adria-mobil.com/application/adria/request/pdf/product_print.php?cat=motorhomes&products=%5B%22B8AA+M1100%22%5D http://be-fr.adria-mobil.com/application/adria/request/pdf/product_print.php?cat=motorhomes&products=%5B%22L6AA+B1100%22%5D The first file relates to an Adria 670SL that has a ‘special’ (ie. ‘camping-car’) chassis. The 670SL model is available on a Ducato ‘light’ chassis with a PTAC of 3500kg and an optional uprate to 3650kg, or on a Ducato ‘heavy'’ chassis with a PTAC of 4250kg and an optional downrate to 3500kg. The second file relates to an Adria 710SLthat has an Al-Ko chassis. The 710SL model is available on a Ducato ‘light’ Al-Ko chassis with a PTAC of 3500kg and an optional uprate to 3850kg, or on a Ducato ‘heavy'’ Al-Ko chassis with a PTAC of 4250kg and an optional downrate to 3500kg. Fiat offers various leaf spring options for the current Ducato, including a weight-saving composite spring. Opting for 16”-diameter wheels (steel or alloy) for a Ducato ‘light’ camping-car chassis means that the tyres provided will be 225/75 R16CP specification. However, even when a Ducato ‘light’-based motorhome has a 3850kg Al-Ko chassis, the standard wheel diameter will still be 15” and the tyre specification will be 215/70 R15CP. (Does any of this REALLY matter???) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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