alko amc rear axle(s) GREASING

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Yes it matters Derek. Despite your links you can have a fiat ducato light up to 3850 as an option. And the whole thing is that extra 200kg. This is apart from a alko chassis. I do not want to mess around whit you because your contributions are impressive.I try another way to end this mystery using my personal motor home. And at the same have a good look on your own plate data: Built from three parts fiat-alko-burstner. Weights: fiat 3650-alko3850-burstner 3850. In case of a eec type approval you will see on the alko plate a line stufe 2 and burstner stufe 3 not on the fiat. In french etape 1-2-3 in case of an integral.What does this means. It means that last one in figure at the final stage of type approval in my case burstner is responsible for all the former ones. If you order whit air suspension another stage is entered . All stages should prove data on paper delivered whit your motor home. In case of air new axle load data . So the final stage builder said that i can drive 3850 kg. Brian Kirby is well aware of this.The only thing that matters is to drive technically a ducato light with fiat chassis or alko. I said the brakes are the limit but i have no confirmation from any body on paper. In the meantime happy ending year in your motorhome.

[Steve928]

Well, as we are a long way off the subject of greasing..

 

How is it that the 3850kg MAM/MTPLM is even accepted and allowed on a chassis where 3850 is the sum of its axle limits? It just seems such as ridiculous situation as clearly it will never, ever be possible to load to and travel at 3850kg overall.

 

As a graphic example, I saw recently a post from a fellow Bailey owner who wrote (somewhat smuggly it has to be said..) "Good job that I upgraded to 3850kg as we weighed 3790kg on our way to Spain". It transpired however that he was fully 190kg over the 2000kg rear axle limit, even exceeding the maximum rated weight of the tyres by a worrying margin.

 

Surely the buffer provided by the sum of the individual axle weight limits being in excess of the total weight limit exists for an obvious purpose, so I do wonder why motorhomers (possibly some of the worst offenders) are granted this 'pass' to push the system to, and over, its limits.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Very nice said. But if you overloading your individual axles in that way you should run a fiat maxi chassis whit c licence still being the same motorhome. You where falling in the fiat light trap buying light and running heavy whit b.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

No we are still in that area. This morning reading broken torsion bars of too much play in the swing arms. You can perfectly driving a fiat light chassis whit air suspension up to 4000kg. In that case 3650 is out of the question but nobody seems to be understand.

[Brian Kirby]

Steve, I think Monique is referring to the situation where an AlKo chassis is used by the converter. Under the EU Type Approval procedure all that is delivered to the converter from Fiat is a cab or cowl with front wheels and transmission etc. The AlKo chassis, when bolted on, sets the rear axle load as appropriate to the AlKo chassis selected. So, the Fiat VIN plate is relevant only to the power train and front suspension (the Fiat parts). The AlKo plate determines the permissible rear suspension load (and there will be a separate AlKo plate attached, usually, beside the Fiat plate. See attached picture - which I hope will be legible. A final plate is then attached by the converter which may utilise the whole of any additional permissible load gain from AlKo, but can also set the MAM to a lower value. I understand that the actual limits are set in consultation between converter, Fiat, and AlKo, which in any case seems essential.

 

Generally, this will reflect the unladen weight of the conversion, taking some account of factors such as rear overhang etc. to leave a payload that is considered workable. Our van is X2-50, and my information relates to that, so I can't comment on what chassis-cab permutations are available for the current model.

 

For the X2-50 Ducato "light" the AlKo axles available were 2,000kg only, designated AMC35L, AMC37L and AMC38L, giving 3,500kg, 3,700kg, and 3,850kg MAM respectively. In all cases the front axle is limited to 1,850kg. (The X2-50 "heavy" has a front axle limit of 2,100kg, and if paired with a single AlKo rear axle of 2,400kg, gives plated MAMs between 3,500kg and 4,500kg.)

 

In both cases the highest MAM is somewhat academic, since it is achieved, as you have observed, by combining the maximum permissible loads for both front and rear axles; a load condition it would be impossible to achieve in normal use. It places considerable onus on the owner for ensuring that the individual axle loads are as closely controlled as the MAM.

 

Based on the above, which, as I said, is relevant to the X2-50 Ducato, some of the combinations of cab and AlKo chassis Monique appears to be seeking are of little practical value if the individual axle limits are to be respected. But, they are available (according to AlKo's 2012 AMC Chassis Handbook).

[Derek Uzzell]

It’s really quite simple...

 

There is a Ducato X290 special 'camping-car’ variant that is refered to as a “35L”. The chassis-cab version has a complete cab section with welded to it a light-weight ladder-frame rear chassis with a wide-track leaf-sprung rear axle. This is intended for ‘coachbuilt’ motorhomes to be built on. There is also a a chassis-cowl version that dispenses with the cab body-panels and is intended to have A-class motorhomes built on. These ‘camping-car’ chassis can be specified with a 3500kg or 3650kg MAM, but are otherwise technically identical and have the same maximum axle-loadings of 1850kg(front) and 2000kg(rear). Fiat does not offer the 35L camping-car chassis with a MAM above 3650kg.

 

Fiat can also supply a Ducato X290 “35L" in cab-only format or cowl-only format. In each case ‘brackets’ are factory-fitted to the cab unit (or cowl unit) to allow an Al-Ko rear chassis to be attached subsequently. After the Al-Ko chassis has been added the axle-loadings are 1850kg(front) and 2000kg(rear) - the same as the 35L camping-car chassis - but the MAM options are now 3500kg, 3700kg or 3850kg.

[Steve928]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-12-15 6:47 PM

 

It’s really quite simple...

 

 

I appreciate that it's quite simple, Derek, and my comments were not about the means and ways by which such a chassis is derived, but rather about the dangers of delivering a 3850MAM chassis with 1850F & 2000R axle limits into the hands of the largely ignorant (as far as weight matters are concerned) motorhoming public.

 

It's up there with the '6 belted seats on a 3500kg MAM' scenario in terms of inciting the public to break the law and run into danger.

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve

 

The (simple) fact is that, when an Al-Ko chassis is added to a Ducato X250/X290 35L cab or cowl unit, it becomes practicable for a converter to offer a motorhome specification with a 3850kg MAM, front and rear axle-loadings of respectively 1850kg and 2000kg, and tyres with a load-index of 109 equating to a ‘single-wheel’ axle-loading of 2060kg.

 

I fully appreciate that this combination raises the possibility of a motorhome owner prioritising on the 3850kg MAM datum and completely ignoring the axle-loading maxima and the load-index of the tyres, but as I can’t change what Al-Ko or motorhome converters do there’s no point in me getting uptight about this. Neither of us can protect ‘weight ignorant’ motorcaravanners from themselves much as we might like to.

 

I don’t understand why Monique is obsessive about this weight thing. If a Ducato ‘light’ is defined as having as its standard specification 1850kg (front) and 2000kg (rear) axle-loadings and 109 load-index tyres, the camping-car chassis version can have a MAM of 3650kg and the Al-Ko chassis version can have a MAM of 3850kg. Although it would be possible to side-step the 109 load-index issue by choosing the 16”-diameter wheel option, there is no ‘factory’ option to upgrade the 1850kg/2000kg limits.

 

Once the 3500kg MAM limit is exceeded it becomes legally necessary (in the UK at least) to have a minimum C1 driving licence entitlement (All motorcaravanners should be aware of this). As a Ducato ‘light’ with a 3650kg MAM or a 3850kg MAM cannot legally be driven on a B driving-licence entitlement, it might be argued that only ‘maxi’ chassis should be used for Ducato-based motorhomes with a MAM above 3500kg, as those chassis have significantly higher axle-loading maxima and tyres with a higher load-index and would better protect ‘weight ignorant’ motorcaravanners from overloading axles and/or tyres. But that’s not what’s happening now and, realistically, it’s not what will happen in future.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

What is said about alko is correct. But do not forget that alko figures out on the rear a fiat brake system, handbrake, and whole fiat parts hanging on the swing arms. Its not just alko on the rear. In any case they can pull a 38L alko chassis maxium having torsion bars well above 2000kg. And their chassis safety factor is well above 3850. But because of the fiat parts at the rear 3850 is the limit with 15 inch tires and brakes which is in their type approval. In that case fiat 3650 is out only whit 1850 front axle limit that 3650 is overruled. In case of a fiat chassis for motorhomes they do exactly the same as alko you can buy them for 3850. Both are not sitting at their bump stops at that weight.So we are taking in this case of a fiat 36.5L upgraded to 38.5L. Now mostly with 16 inch tyres but not i repeat with the heavy details. In case you are worried about their suspension put air on the axles in that case you are transferring the load of your axle or axles to the chassis members.However if you have a alko grease axle it still need to be greased. The gain is 350 kg extra weight still driving light much cheaper than heavy 50 kg lighter in case of alko 100kg driveable with b or c.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

One thing i forgot is that if you have load combinations on the rear or trailers they will be taking in to account in a sence that lower figures than the ultimate of 3850 would be beneficial.

[Brian Kirby]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2016-12-16 4:26 PM................... The gain is 350 kg extra weight still driving light much cheaper than heavy 50 kg lighter in case of alko 100kg driveable with b or c.

But Monique, you cannot use that 350kg extra load under real world conditions, because the limiting factor will be the 2,000kg limit on the rear axle, which will be reached before 3,850kg PTAC is reached. It is a gain on paper only.

 

The most important consideration is the load on the rear axle when the vehicle is unladen (poids a vide). If you know that, you will also know how much additional load you can add to the rear axle. However, the layout of the van, and the length of the rear overhang, will also influence how much extra load can actually be added.

 

The "heavy" chassis, although itself heavier, brings a 2,400kg rear axle load which would comfortably allow 3,850kg PTAC to be utilised without, in most cases, the 2,400kg rear axle load being exceeded.

 

It is a lot more complicated than specifying 3,850kg on a "light" chassis if you want to exploit the whole of the 350kg extra load without overloading the rear axle and tyres, which apart from being illegal, is also potentially dangerous. If I wanted 3,850kg, I would be inclined to favour the heavy chassis, even at the extra cost, because I could then be reasonably confident that I could exploit all of the extra 350kg.

 

With the "light" chassis at 3,850 it is extremely unlikely that the full 350kg could be utilised, and very difficult to determine how much might be usable on any given van. At worst, you might find that none of the 350kg is available, because the design of the van places most of the load on the rear axle, and you can't legally take it above 3,500kg in practice.

[Steve928]

Brian Kirby - 2016-12-16 7:11 PM

 

With the "light" chassis at 3,850 it is extremely unlikely that the full 350kg could be utilised, and very difficult to determine how much might be usable on any given van. At worst, you might find that none of the 350kg is available, because the design of the van places most of the load on the rear axle, and you can't legally take it above 3,500kg in practice.

 

Exactly, Brian, and just the point that I tried to make above. In that example the van was a Bailey 740 which utilises chassis dimensions that are common among many manufacturers i.e. 7.4 metres overall length on a 4.1 metre wheelbase. Furthermore it has no rear garage and of the weighty items only the waste tank (which was empty in this example) is aft of the rear axle. Weighed at 3760kg with front axle 1570kg and rear axle 2190kg i.e.already 9.5% overloaded. And yet quite a few people have even fitted scooter racks to this same model 8-)

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

There was a lot of common sense in the above comments and i am fully aware of that from the beginning of my weight check on the fiat 36.5l. Thank you. I started this seeing fiats with 3650 plates up to 3850 under the bonnet and 15 inch tyres 109Q mostly with alko but recently also fiat ccs chassis but whit 16 inch tyres. The whole summer season i run dog agilty festivals with an average of 80 motor-homes.Mostly B drivers and maybe their rear or front in case of integral with their large front screens and front double bed are above their axle limits so what they say. We do only max 5000 km on average a year.My van is plated 3850 so tech running 3850 is no problem in case of 350 overload if axle loads are respected. In case of c you drive legal.You can also increase your MAM by air but on the fiat standard there is less play.Any way i made an appointment for alko x4 air suspension for the next season. In that class of motor home it should it should be standard at least on the rear axle. In the A class it is now standard with iveco and vb.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Steve apparently you have a heavy dry weight built motorhome. If it was above 3100kg and with some options you should have 3850 plated running b or c or heavy chassis. i ordered a 3850 kg one not the heavy.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

If you park your alko axle for a long winter time put your rear axle on studs perfect horizontal and wheels-tyres above ground, also being the correct grease position.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Still refuse to agree that a 3850 plated MAM plated is noncence.After a long chat whit burstner homologation. That 3850 was invented to get the max out of a fiat 36.5L which is now the correct type name. That 200kg is approved by fiat including guarantee. That is the purpose of a motor home builder to deliver a motorhome at max weight possible including type approval which means you drive savely at this MAM. The axle loads limits still stand but are nor relevant to the 3850 limit. That depends on the user of his weight distribution in a particular model. My 3850 alu sandwich with alko is 3100kg calculated and 3280 with awning, Alde heating.one 100watt solar and a tv set. So driving i have about 500 kg to play with.And whit air front and rear i can set the correct ride height front and rear driving like a coach liner on fiat light chassis. (lol)

[Steve928]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2016-12-20 3:45 PM

 

The axle loads limits still stand but are not relevant to the 3850 limit.

 

8-) (?)

 

Where's the 'lost for words' emoticon when you need it.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Alko recommends the following axle loads on the ground in all load conditions. Front 40-70 percent of the MAM and the rear 30-60. If the MAM is 3850 we will get 1540-2695 and 1155-2360. To respect the axle loads this means 48 percent max on the front about half of the MAM and 52 on the rear also about half.Seeing my motorhome 7.56 long and a 4035 wheel base and a standard ducato front overhang, and not a overloaded garage there will not be any problem driving c1E on full air suspension from alko. Today i saw a rebuild to full air and when the swing arms came out he checked the condition of the bushes by a probe light monitor on video screen and they looked like potato chips. Ready for the fall of the torsion bars. Keep any way your outer grease seal in a visual coming out grease view left and right. For the ones wondering about the max of 70 percent front is because of the strong ducato front structure suspension and their engine sitting on a strong subframe being the axle itself. And do not forget alu sandwich walls and alko chassis having a lower gravity point which you can ask for and 15 inch alu wheels and a 120 ltr water tank including the waste are sit very low. All perfectly engineered by burstner proven by axle loads. A fiat camper chassis 36.5 L whit steel 16 inch wheels never said in metric is about 150 kg more heavy. Seeing the speed of the trucks and especially the coaches in the UK heading for the chunnel what are we talking about here of some overload running at decent speed with our beloved motorhome.

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve928 - 2016-12-21 4:00 PM

 

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2016-12-20 3:45 PM

 

The axle loads limits still stand but are not relevant to the 3850 limit.

 

8-) (?)

 

Where's the 'lost for words' emoticon when you need it.

 

 

Something like this?

 

[Brian Kirby]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2016-12-20 3:45 PM..................... The axle loads limits still stand but are nor relevant to the 3850 limit. That depends on the user of his weight distribution in a particular model. My 3850 alu sandwich with alko is 3100kg calculated and 3280 with awning, Alde heating.one 100watt solar and a tv set. So driving i have about 500 kg to play with.And whit air front and rear i can set the correct ride height front and rear driving like a coach liner on fiat light chassis. (lol)

Monique, the 3,850kg PTAC is the total of the permissible front axle load (1,850kg), and the permissible rear axle load (2,000kg). So, both axle loads are, in my opinion, very relevant to the 3,850kg PTAC.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that this PTAC is nonsense, just that, in practise, it cannot be achieved in normal, every day, use, because one, or other, of the two axles will inevitably become overloaded before a PTAC of 3,850kg is reached. So, while a vehicle can legally be plated at 3,850kg PTAC, the owner would have to make repeated visits to a weighbridge to ensure both the PTAC, and the individual axle limits, are not exceeded.

 

Having achieved that state of load, if an item were subsequently removed from behind the rear axle, although the PTAC and the rear axle load would fall, it is quite probable that the front axle would become overloaded, due to the loss of the negative transferred load from that item.

 

Unless you know the exact weight of each and every item loaded, including yourselves and the dogs (all of whose weights will vary from day to day), and are prepared to calculate how those loads are distributed between the axles, you cannot be certain that neither axle will be overloaded. That is the purely practical reason that all vehicles have their ex works PTAC set to a total that exceeds the sum of the axle maxima. One can do otherwise, but the actual gain is likely to be much less than simple arithmetic suggests.

 

My expectation is that under real world conditions you will not, in fact, have 500kg to "play with". How much you will actually have will depend on the layout of your van, on what you carry where, and on what the axle loads are with the van empty. I think you would be wise to first find this out, as it will tell you out how much load you can legally add to each axle without overload. You may be surprised at the result - I hope, agreeably surprised. :-)

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Again fully agreed Brian. You can calculate or a computer program what your axle loads are in combination with two directions of the point of gravity including slopes. But real weights still stands. A motorhome is about the same as a Van used for Horses Etc. Commercial vans also use the upgrade to 3850 but in a clearer sense than the RV world. In case of the fiat 35L/36.5L an upgrade to 3850 makes not much sense whatever you do about suspension as you perfectly explained.About above fiat : Alko figure out a 4000 kg MAM whit a two axle on the rear pulled by a fiat as above. Overloading your axles is a infringement of built in safety like ESC and Tyre load indexes. AL-KO Australia only imports fiat Siamese for the RV in heavy fiat version with a complicated import tax system. In case of two axles alko x2 air is mandatory. And a preference for the high frame alko which i use in the green fields at the dog Agility. Alko is not the same as the Koala bear. Have a nice Chistmas evening. Monique/Hans.

[Brian Kirby]

Hello Monique. I had thought we may be misunderstanding each other. Glad we're not! Have a good Christmas. Snow in Essen? :-)

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

No white Christmas in Belgium. This morning i read the crash of a Tupolev TU- 154. Straight after take off. Sad to hear the miss of these famous base voice musicians . A lot of tourists in belgium and the Uk have flown with it to the Balkan like Bulgaria golden sands. Still back on the ducato above limit should read 4600 kg instead of 4000kg. It has a 1850 front axle and two 1050 rear axles. Still uses a fiat light chassis cab. I wonder what engine power. So what we think that a light fiat holy weight of max 3850kg depends on the chassis used and that fiat is just blow away in weight terms. That 3850 is a theoretical upgrade. A real upgrade is increasing your axle loads. But your house builder has a Say in this. The weight distribution on alko is better than fiat.

[Derek Uzzell]

I think you are referring to Al-Ko specialised commercial vehicle chassis with 13”-diameter rear wheels. These are available for Fiat Ducato and VW Transporter cab-units as described here:

 

http://www.al-ko.com/en/vehicle-technology/sites/default/files/uploaded_files/vt/Kataloge/Kataloge_EN/499543_fiat-ducato_13-zoll_en.pdf

 

http://www.al-ko.com/en/vehicle-technology/sites/default/files/uploaded_files/vt/Kataloge/Kataloge_EN/499576_vw-transporter_13-zoll_en.pdf

 

Presumably - for the Ducato-based variant - the customer can choose any of the current crop of 2.3litre motors.

 

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

After what has been said what shall i do: My burstner 2015 I728G 2.3 - 109 kw-3600rpm has a plate 3850 kg MAM. 215/70 R 15 CP whit alu wheels 6jx15h2e68. load index single tyre 109 q=1030 kg per wheel.Running on 1810/1980 tracks. Ready for alko full air X4 incl 10 ltr airtank. Extra weight 80 kg. Goldsmitt claims only 40 kg. VB suspension is about the same system as alko. Shall i stick to my b licence at 3500 kg? I have no clue about my individual axle weights.But as Brian suggested it is wise to check. Anyway i have 3850 technical on a 2000kg rear axle and 3850 al-ko. Before going to c1E i will check the real loads.