Insulating Fiat Cab Doors

[BnJ]

The coldest part of our PVC, just as has been with past coach-builts, are the fiat cab doors. We’ve stuffed old cushions down into the door wells to eliminate draughts at night and that's been largely successful, but the cold metal surface along the bottom half of the doors does lead to condensation on the metal and makes any maps or papers soggy in the door pockets.

 

So it seems to me the only decent way to stop this is to insulate inside the cab doors themselves. Has anyone done this and what materials have they used?

 

I’m thinking it should be a straightforward job to take off the door pockets and door cards and carefully pull back any waterproof membrane covering the access holes in the doors. My idea would be to fill the door cavities with the denser type of Dacron fibre insulation which doesn’t absorb moisture. I’m told the Dacron will allow any moisture to drain through it and out through the door drain holes if necessary.

 

Any suggestions or experiences would be welcome.

 

Thanks

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I’ll be surprised if anyone has done what you are contemplating.

 

If it’s just the maps/papers in the door pockets getting damp that’s the issue, can you not make an ‘insulating backing’ for the door pocket (using carpet-tile material perhaps) so that the stuff in the pocket does not contact the bare metal?

 

If you are confident that the Dacron insulating material won't hold moisture and will allow proper draining to take place, in principle the idea seems OK to me, though personally I’d fight shy of displacing door cards and membranes from a brand-new vehicle if there were an acceptable alternative that avoided this.

[John52]

I found Thermoliner very good. http://www.harrisonstrimsupplies.co.uk/8m-x1m-foil-foam-van-insulation-with-pre-glued-soundproofing-thermoliner-simple-23174-p.asp

[kevina]

I thought about this as we go skiing in the van. In the end we took to keeping all the bottled water in the door pockets and buying thermal screens that cover the entire door.

 

 

[Keithl]

Why not get external thermal screens which cover the complete front doors as well as the windscreen and bonnet?

 

Van Comfort do them for the latest Ducato for £255 for the upper and £170 for the lower sections.

 

http://www.vancomfort.co.uk/thermoluxduo.htm

 

Surely far easier than ripping a brand new MH apart!

 

Keith.

[John52]

I always take the door cards off a new van anyway to fit alarm switches on the handles. So the alarm goes off when the thief tries the door handle (irrespective of wheher the door is locked or not) - BEFORE he has smashed his way in :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

The ‘Dacron stuffing’ approach seems reasonably likely to succeed though - as I suggested earlier - there may well be no forum member who can advise based on first hand experience.

 

Insulating the door itself should combat condensation forming while the motorhome is being driven in cold weather as well as when it is parked. Dacron insulation is cheap enough and, if the door-cards etc. can be removed/replaced easily, it should be worth experimenting. A check later on should confirm whether or not water is draining away properly and, if there is any doubt, the Dacron can be taken out.

[laimeduck]

John52 - 2016-11-24 6:53 PMI found Thermoliner very good. http://www.harrisonstrimsupplies.co.uk/8m-x1m-foil-foam-van-insulation-with-pre-glued-soundproofing-thermoliner-simple-23174-p.asp

Just bought similar from China to insulate soundproof my 30 year old 2CV (conradiction in terms here, soundproof & 2CV!)

10mm thick (compare 7mm above)and looks very similar to above, with ali one side and self adhesive the other. A smaller roll - 2metres and less per m2.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/222276922215

[John52]

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 1:09 PM

 

less per m2.

 

Its £12.27 per m2, which is MORE per m2, than thermoliner in an 8m roll.

But its a bit thicker.

Of course the thicker the insulation the more efficient it should be, providing the panel is flat enough to stick it to, thats the problem. If air can still circulate behind the insulation its useless, if it traps water its worse than useless. 7mm thick seems a reasonable compromise for a van to me but 10mm should be Ok for a flat door panel.

You can add extra layers of Thermoliner = 2x7mm layers would fit around the contours much better than 1x14mm layer.

I don't understand what they mean by 'Highly compressible closed cell foam formulation' because closed cell foam works like a spring, not a sponge.

 

 

[ham]

I have seen a sliding door that was insulated . But be careful they had a problem that saw the insulation fouling the door catch and release cables. On my van I have stuck gaffer tape over the vents in the door panel this stopped a lot of draught.

My external screen cover stops a lot of over draughts . The one I cannot stop is where the seat belt comes out of the side panels. I have also fitted a sliding curtain that slides around the front of the cab which allows the seats to be still turned and used

[Zydeco Joe]

We also had a cold cab not great now but better after I took the radio speaker door covers off (no door speakers in them ) and using a plastic bag to stop the cold draft, put covers back on with the 3 screws. Easy and cheap ie no cost. Took me about half hour to do, simple but it did help to reduce the winter cold in the FIAT cab. B-)

[laimeduck]

John52 - 2016-11-25 2:32 PM

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 1:09 PMless per m2.

Its £12.27 per m2, which is MORE per m2, than thermoliner in an 8m roll.  

Sorry John - being pedantic  - They are in fact nearly the same price, but the Chinese one is 10mm thick. So I was wrong, but not that wrong!

The thermoliner is £72.40 Ex VAT plus Delivery at £9.00

That's £81.40 plus VAT = £97.68 or £12.21 per m2

The chinese one is ..... £12.27 per m2

So in volume terms the Chinese one is cheaper per m3!

..... I need a drink!

[BnJ]

You lot are great, so thank you for the replies so far.

 

Derek, yes a good idea but I have also been thinking about sound insulation as well as thermal insulation (and forgot to mention that). I’ve heard of “thinsulate” being used for what I’m considering but Dacron fibre material is supposed to have similar thermal and acoustic insulating properties for about half the price. If I were to add some sound deadening pads to the inside of the outside skin (to cut down any panel resonating when the door cards are off) then put the Dacron matting in loosely I would hope to get the best of both worlds of sound and thermal insulation for a few pounds.

 

John52, I agree Thermoliner is very good, I have used it before but having to squeeze it through some of the holes in the door panel to stick it to the inside of the outside skin I thought might be a pain? I like your idea about the alarm switches.

 

Keithl, yes I’ve seen those but I’m a meanie and spending £425 when the Dacron would be about £5 or £6 a door to insulate the door for heat and sound, well even with my rubbish maths it doesn’t add up. But those covers would certainly be great in snow or arctic conditions.

 

Please keep your thoughts coming and I’ll keep trawling for information but Derek has a really good point when he says that if the Dacron doesn’t shed any moisture as well as the manufacturers claim, then I can just pull it out again as its a loose fill fibre matting.

 

[John52]

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 4:25 PM

The thermoliner is £72.40 Ex VAT

No. The Thermoliner is £72.40 INCLUDING VAT

[laimeduck]

John52 - 2016-11-25 11:11 PM

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 4:25 PMThe thermoliner is £72.40 Ex VAT

No. The Thermoliner is £72.40 INCLUDING VAT

Don't think so John?

Terms & conditions on the Harrisons Trim Supplies site

"Prices are as quoted on the website at the time you place your order, in British Pounds Sterling (GBP) exclusive of VAT. VAT and delivery charges will be applied at the checkout. All prices and delivery charges quoted are valid and effective only in the United Kingdom."

[John52]

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 11:20 PM

John52 - 2016-11-25 11:11 PM

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 4:25 PMThe thermoliner is £72.40 Ex VAT

No. The Thermoliner is £72.40 INCLUDING VAT

Don't think so John?

Terms & conditions on the Harrisons Trim Supplies site

"Prices are as quoted on the website at the time you place your order, in British Pounds Sterling (GBP) exclusive of VAT. VAT and delivery charges will be applied at the checkout. All prices and delivery charges quoted are valid and effective only in the United Kingdom."

But if you click on 'add to cart' you get Sub Total: £60.33 then 72.40 underneath£72.40 is what I paid, including VAT.

[laimeduck]

John52 - 2016-11-26 10:37 AM

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 11:20 PM

John52 - 2016-11-25 11:11 PM

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 4:25 PMThe thermoliner is £72.40 Ex VAT

No. The Thermoliner is £72.40 INCLUDING VAT

Don't think so John?

Terms & conditions on the Harrisons Trim Supplies site

"Prices are as quoted on the website at the time you place your order, in British Pounds Sterling (GBP) exclusive of VAT. VAT and delivery charges will be applied at the checkout. All prices and delivery charges quoted are valid and effective only in the United Kingdom."

But if you click on 'add to cart' you get Sub Total: £60.33 then 72.40 underneath£72.40 is what I paid, including VAT.

Yup - you're correct! - very misleading T&C's then.

Good thing my 2CV only needs 2 metres!

[John52]

laimeduck - 2016-11-26 11:31 AM

John52 - 2016-11-26 10:37 AM

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 11:20 PM

John52 - 2016-11-25 11:11 PM

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 4:25 PMThe thermoliner is £72.40 Ex VAT

No. The Thermoliner is £72.40 INCLUDING VAT

Don't think so John?

Terms & conditions on the Harrisons Trim Supplies site

"Prices are as quoted on the website at the time you place your order, in British Pounds Sterling (GBP) exclusive of VAT. VAT and delivery charges will be applied at the checkout. All prices and delivery charges quoted are valid and effective only in the United Kingdom."

But if you click on 'add to cart' you get Sub Total: £60.33 then 72.40 underneath£72.40 is what I paid, including VAT.

Yup - you're correct! - very misleading T&C's then.

Good thing my 2CV only needs 2 metres!

Curious why the Chinese only give a price for one square metre.I suspect its because higher value amounts would attract import duty, so they only sell it in small pieces.But it might attract the attention of Her Majesty's tax collectors at 'Mount Pleasant' (who are anything but pleasant) if you had a lot being delivered at once

[laimeduck]

John52 - 2016-11-26 1:02 PM

laimeduck - 2016-11-26 11:31 AM

John52 - 2016-11-26 10:37 AM

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 11:20 PM

John52 - 2016-11-25 11:11 PM

laimeduck - 2016-11-25 4:25 PMThe thermoliner is £72.40 Ex VAT

No. The Thermoliner is £72.40 INCLUDING VAT

Don't think so John?

Terms & conditions on the Harrisons Trim Supplies site

"Prices are as quoted on the website at the time you place your order, in British Pounds Sterling (GBP) exclusive of VAT. VAT and delivery charges will be applied at the checkout. All prices and delivery charges quoted are valid and effective only in the United Kingdom."

But if you click on 'add to cart' you get Sub Total: £60.33 then 72.40 underneath£72.40 is what I paid, including VAT.

Yup - you're correct! - very misleading T&C's then.

Good thing my 2CV only needs 2 metres!

Curious why the Chinese only give a price for one square metre.I suspect its because higher value amounts would attract import duty, so they only sell it in small pieces.But it might attract the attention of Her Majesty's tax collectors at 'Mount Pleasant' (who are anything but pleasant) if you had a lot being delivered at once

There is a sliver lining to every cloud (and to the insulation!)

I've just measured my roll and they've sent me 3 metres of 0.5 M wide roll, so I've got 1.5 m2. That makes it £8.18 per m2.

Whooppee!

[Tea Cup]

Dacron in a plastic bag would be impermeable

[Derek Uzzell]

But then you’d have the potential problem of moisture collecting between the outside of the plastic bag and where it touches the interior metal surfaces of the door.

 

The ‘theory’ is that the Dacron material stuffed into the void inside the door will itself be impermeable to moisture, and that any moisture forming within the door and above the Dacron material will run through that material and out through the door’s drain holes.

[Mike88]

Any insulating material in the front doors will get wet, promote rust and possibly electrical issues with the central locking as any moisture will be absorbed and not drain away. The plastic screen between the door and the door card is there for a reason. Remove it and you will get water into the cab. The drain holes in the bottom of the front doors are there for a reason.

[BnJ]

John,

Seeing your pictures with the door card off I wondered have you used the Thermoliner inside a Fiat cab door before?

I away from home at the moment and haven’t had the time to take the door pockets handles and cards off yet, but as I mentioned previously I did wonder if the access holes in the door might be a bit too small to use to fit the Thermoliner to the inside of the outer skin. However back home I do still have some in the garage so that might be another option. For me the attraction of the Dacron would be that it can be just stuffed in below the window opening area without the need for cutting and fiddling. But would welcome your experience if you’ve used Thermoliner inside a door cavity.

 

Derek,

Yes exactly, the theory seems good. I’ve since read that Dacrons been used by several people when converting vans from scratch (roof, walls and back doors) but I’m wondering if anyone who has 1st hand experience of using it on a door with windows. As a couple of people have already mentioned, avoiding the window opening area will be vital. I won’t have a clear idea about the space available until I get back home to the van next week.

 

The pooling of knowledge is a wonderful thing. Thank you all.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

When you’ve taken the cards off the doors, it would be useful if you could describe in detail afterwards what this involved, please.