Archiesgrandad Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 So much knowledge, so little understanding. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-06-14 7:34 AM Brian Kirby - 2017-06-13 10:16 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-13 8:19 PM Brian Kirby - 2017-06-13 3:22 PM 1. Because, at least that way we maintain tariff-free access to a very wealthy, nearby, market, of approximately 500,000,000 people, giving our producers a bit of advantage against the Chinese etc. . But if we have tariffs then all those suckers who are desperate to buy all things German, will help boost UK PLC with their tariff tax >:-) ........ But, as I keep trying to emphasise Dave, that isn't our problem. Our problem is that we don't sell enough. While those tariffs will make German imports more expensive, they will also our exports more expensive, making them more difficult to sell. We don't earn our living by buying, we earn it by selling. It is the selling side of the equation that the tariffs will damage, making us all poorer. But, as you've already pointed out we haven't managed to sell enough for the 40 years that we were part of the EU ;-) ........ So making them more expensive will do wonders for our balance of trade, as the tariffs will help boost UK PLC coffers........ Replacing the UK's need to sell to balance our books with a tax on those who need to buy German products......gets my vote B-) ....... Might even make some folk buy British :D ........ Doesn't work, Dave. Think about it! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-06-13 8:16 PM Brian Kirby - 2017-06-13 3:22 PM 2. I don't see how you reason that the 95% you claim export nothing "subsidise" the 5%, but even if they did, if the 5% (which are generally the larger companies), take full advantage of the tariff-free EU market, they sell and earn more than they could without the EU market. So, they produce more to feed the extra sales, are likely to employ more people in the process (or to buy more from the 95%), so more people in the UK get paid more, and so are likely to spend more, which means the 95% are likely to benefit indirectly from their extra spending. In the end we all, to varying degrees, become better off. OTOH, deny those 5% (or whatever) the benefit of the tariff-free access to those 500,000,000 million potential customers, and they will sell less, so employ fewer or pay less (or both), so the employees are worse off or unemployed, so reduce their spending, and the 95% (or whatever) of non-exporting companies will notice their sales fall and their incomes fall. It's just normal market economics working in its usual way. Correct.... most of the 5% are the larger companies.....which is why they are the ones so keen to stay in the EU have access to cheap labour *-) ......... So we'd actually be doing the UK population a huge favour by restricting the supply of cheap labour, because the knock on effect would be that they'd be forced to pay more to recruit staff, and by paying more those lower paid workers would no longer need to claim tax credits etc etc, so a massive win win for UK and its taxpayers B-) ...... BTW aren't many of those larger companies foreign owned? >:-) ....... You needed to read the rest of what I wrote before replying, Dave. ;-) You're missing a few bits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-06-14 7:37 AM John52 - 2017-06-14 7:03 AM Brian Kirby - 2017-06-13 10:16 PM Our problem is that we don't sell enough. While those tariffs will make German imports more expensive, they will also our exports more expensive, making them more difficult to sell. We don't earn our living by buying, we earn it by selling. It is the selling side of the equation that the tariffs will damage, making us all poorer. Precisely. And who would choose to site or expand their factory in Britain, with the possibility of being on the wrong side of trade barriers in a couple of years time ((on top of its inflated property prices, congested roads, overpriced parking etc etc) :-( Years ago Japanese companies opened factories in the UK precisely to avoid paying UK tariffs, so I would expect more factories NOT less ;-) ........ I think you'll find those were EU tariffs, Dave, not UK tariffs - so that they gained tariff-free access to the EU market from UK factories. The UK government facilitated their developments to the maximum extent permitted by EU rules, and the Japanese were happy because most of their management already spoke English. Edit - to say John 52 beat me to it! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Brian Kirby - 2017-06-15 4:02 PM pelmetman - 2017-06-14 7:37 AM John52 - 2017-06-14 7:03 AM Brian Kirby - 2017-06-13 10:16 PM Our problem is that we don't sell enough. While those tariffs will make German imports more expensive, they will also our exports more expensive, making them more difficult to sell. We don't earn our living by buying, we earn it by selling. It is the selling side of the equation that the tariffs will damage, making us all poorer. Precisely. And who would choose to site or expand their factory in Britain, with the possibility of being on the wrong side of trade barriers in a couple of years time ((on top of its inflated property prices, congested roads, overpriced parking etc etc) :-( Years ago Japanese companies opened factories in the UK precisely to avoid paying UK tariffs, so I would expect more factories NOT less ;-) ........ I think you'll find those were EU tariffs, Dave, not UK tariffs - so that they gained tariff-free access to the EU market from UK factories. The UK government facilitated their developments to the maximum extent permitted by EU rules, and the Japanese were happy because most of their management already spoke English. Edit - to say John 52 beat me to it! :-D They were "still" set up to avoid tariffs......which is why tariffs is such a good idea B-) ......... Mind you all those foreign folk who have been snapping up our British companies must be a bit nonplussed at the moment, maybe they'll just have to stay here and make stuff to sell to us to avoid any tariffs :D ....... I guess they could just flog them back to us on the cheap ;-) ........It'll be nice to get some of the family silver back B-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 Sorry to see you guys cannot agree about tarifs. I'm also sorry to see the DUP appearing to make such a meal of agreeing to support the Tories, with whom they have many common ideas, presumably to extract as much benefit to them as possible from the Tories' misfortune. Our Government is in a mess and we are in no state to enter real negotiations for an equitable Brexit. I think we should listen to the EU demands to learn what they are and then withdraw the Article 50 notification, to fight another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 StuartO - 2017-06-16 8:57 AM extract as much benefit to (the DUP) as possible from the Tories' misfortune. Yopu mean the Taxpayer's misfortune because thats who will be paying the cash for DUP Tory votes. More seriously, the UK Governmentt taking one side (DUP) could derail the peace process and take us back to the days of IRA Terrorism :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-06-15 9:48 PM Mind you all those foreign folk who have been snapping up our British companies must be a bit nonplussed at the moment, maybe they'll just have to stay here and make stuff to sell to us... They already do because they bought our power and water supplies. Election promises to cap charges won't work because unless they are guaranteed certain high profits they won't invest in reserve capacity and our lights will go out when the wind stops blowing and the sun stops shining. Maybe thats why no other major country in the world sold their power and water supplies to foreign corporations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 StuartO - 2017-06-16 8:57 AMSorry to see you guys cannot agree about tarifs. I'm also sorry to see the DUP appearing to make such a meal of agreeing to support the Tories, with whom they have many common ideas, presumably to extract as much benefit to them as possible from the Tories' misfortune. Our Government is in a mess and we are in no state to enter real negotiations for an equitable Brexit. I think we should listen to the EU demands to learn what they are and then withdraw the Article 50 notification, to fight another day. I totally agree. We are in a right mess. Carry on for a bit, find out as much as possible then call it off, for now until our house is in order. I suspect we will end up with another General Election after which IF we end up with a government with a decent majority and we know a few Brexit facts we should hold another civilised referendum based on those facts and go from there.I am sure a change of government is a valid reason to revoke Article 50 although I think it can be revoked anyway. I would like this country to be a bit more united with both its government and its stance towards Brexit. Will we ever get that? I dont know but to continue as we are right now is just crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 John52 - 2017-06-16 11:53 AM.... they bought our power and water supplies. Election promises to cap charges won't work because unless they are guaranteed certain high profits they won't invest in reserve capacity and our lights will go out when the wind stops blowing and the sun stops shining.Maybe thats why no other major country in the world sold their power and water supplies to foreign corporations? The advantage of selling to foreigners is that they can't take the fixed assets abroad so we can always re-nationalise and decide for ourselves how much to pay them. Mind you you probably can't keep doing that - even Johnny Foreigner isn't completely stupid! Hang on, isn't that what Jeremy Corbyn is already planning to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Barryd999 - 2017-06-16 11:55 AM t to continue as we are right now is just crazy. Yes but thats what they will do because they won't admit they are in a 'right mess' They still claim to be 'Strong and Stable' *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 John52 - 2017-06-16 12:29 PMBarryd999 - 2017-06-16 11:55 AMt to continue as we are right now is just crazy.Yes but thats what they will do because they won't admit they are in a 'right mess'They still claim to be 'Strong and Stable' *-) Hasn't Theresa May already said to the 1922 Committee that she got them into this mess, so she will stick around to try to get them out of it for as long as they want her to do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 StuartO - 2017-06-16 1:57 PMJohn52 - 2017-06-16 12:29 PMBarryd999 - 2017-06-16 11:55 AMt to continue as we are right now is just crazy.Yes but thats what they will do because they won't admit they are in a 'right mess'They still claim to be 'Strong and Stable' *-) Hasn't Theresa May already said to the 1922 Committee that she got them into this mess, so she will stick around to try to get them out of it for as long as they want her to do so?Yes but buying DUP votes with our money to keep themselves in power is bribery like Cameron buying Scots votes with our money to defeat the SNP and keep himself in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 John52 - 2017-06-16 6:26 PMStuartO - 2017-06-16 1:57 PMJohn52 - 2017-06-16 12:29 PMBarryd999 - 2017-06-16 11:55 AMt to continue as we are right now is just crazy.Yes but thats what they will do because they won't admit they are in a 'right mess'They still claim to be 'Strong and Stable' *-) Hasn't Theresa May already said to the 1922 Committee that she got them into this mess, so she will stick around to try to get them out of it for as long as they want her to do so?Yes but buying DUP votes with our money to keep themselves in power is bribery like Cameron buying Scots votes with our money to defeat the SNP and keep himself in power.If our resident Labour voters didn't like the outcome of the election *-) ........Perhaps they should get themselves an electable leader? >:-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 pelmetman - 2017-06-17 8:21 AM If our resident Labour voters didn't like the outcome of the election *-) ........ Perhaps they should get themselves an electable leader? >:-) ....... They have just been discussing that in the papers review on Sky News. Anne Diamond summed it up as 'If the Grenfell Fire happened the week before the election we would be looking at a different Prime Minister' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 John52 - 2017-06-17 8:54 AM pelmetman - 2017-06-17 8:21 AM If our resident Labour voters didn't like the outcome of the election *-) ........ Perhaps they should get themselves an electable leader? >:-) ....... They have just been discussing that in the papers review on Sky News. Anne Diamond summed it up as 'If the Grenfell Fire happened the week before the election we would be looking at a different Prime Minister' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 John52 - 2017-06-17 8:54 AM pelmetman - 2017-06-17 8:21 AM If our resident Labour voters didn't like the outcome of the election *-) ........ Perhaps they should get themselves an electable leader? >:-) ....... They have just been discussing that in the papers review on Sky News. Anne Diamond summed it up as 'If the Grenfell Fire happened the week before the election we would be looking at a different Prime Minister' You talk b*****ks most of the time John ........ Sky and you have gone to defcon 1 on the bullsh*t scale *-) ....... Do you loony lefties have no shame about what tragedy you will try to pervert to your cause? :-| ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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