Another Brexit Casualty

[RogerC]

Rather than have a load of 'quote' to contend with I will reply here:

Percentages in relation to money are IMO an accountants way out of looking at the reality.  Having been in employment whereby pay increases across the range of employees was delivered in percentages a 1% pay increase to the lower paid was not worth administering.  To the highest level it was likely worth the same if not more than the lowest paid total salary....ergo talking % in terms of budgetary/fiscal situations means 'smoke and mirrors' in the real world.

Therefore if you are prepared to accept a member state knowingly and with total disregard for the public it is supposed to serve effectively steal a massive amount of money I can only say you have (IMO) a strange way of looking at what is and is not acceptable.

You say it will change in time!!  That seems to be a recurring mantra in all your arguments....'It will get better in time'....'stay in and give the EU a chance to reform' etc etc.  How much longer are you and others prepared to let the EU squander such, in real monetary terms not percentages, massive amounts of money?  It has been going on as far as I can ascertain since 1992 so how much longer does this institution need in order to correct an historical anomaly and over ride a pompous, self interested member? 

I did read the Wiki extract and despite the tangential content there is one that stands scrutiny:

......it can only be changed by the Council acting unanimously, meaning that France could veto any move. The former French President Nicolas Sarkozy has stated that the Strasbourg seat is "non-negotiable", and that France has no intention of surrendering the only EU Institution on French soil. Given France's declared intention to veto any relocation to Brussels, some MEPs have advocated civil disobedience by refusing to take part in the monthly exodus to Strasbourg."

So it is clear to a blnd man that the French have no desire, intent or will to relinquish the Strasbourg circus..(a nation member with no shame).....and the rest of the EU has, and can do absolutely nothing about it.  Therefore I consider your 'wait and see' approach to be nothing other than a willingness to allow one self serving, egotistical and pompous member to continue to effectively steal £150,000,000 (and growing), per year to sate it's appetite for self importance.

Lastly it is interesting that you are prepared to justify grand theft yet lambaste those in the referendum campaign for false claims with regard to the fiscal situation.

[Tracker]

You can moan and complain and find excuses and distortions all you like but the brutal truth is - wait for it - the UK is leaving the EU.

 

Like it or not you can choose to try to make it work or you can sit at home as keyboard warriors and nit pick and moan about it and attempt to spread depression and doom and gloom solely to further your own views.

 

Get real people - it will happen - so make the most of it and give up on the moaning and manipulation, wait and see and then complain, but only if and when you think you have been hard done by in a few year's time.

 

Continuing with this argument is pointless, as there are none so deaf as those who will not hear.

 

[antony1969]

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-07 4:30 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 3:29 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:24 AM

 

I can't believe that after all this time and now having learned just how vital both the single market and customs union is (not to mention almost impossible to leave) that the Brexiteers are still simply relying on blind faith that it will be alright on the night and anyone considering the arguments against having looked at the mounting evidence against Brexit is just a doom and gloom moaner.

 

Saying lets just see what happens and how can anyone know the outcome is just plain stupid. I don't think its right to call Brexiteers stupid or kind but if you advocate such a fingers crossed and hope for the best attitude then you must be.

 

We don't know what will happen just like the man who jumped off the sky scraper who all the way down kept saying "so far so good" but if we do jump off the skyscraper without a parachute or something "soft" to land on I think the outcome is obvious to all but the blind Brexit faithful.

 

As for being risk averse! Don't make me laugh! :D I've taken risks all my life both in business and personal. Risks that would make many have a heart attack or fill their pants but generally to take a big risk there has to be a chance of a huge possible reward and with Brexit there simply isn't. At best we will leave in name only and will only end up a bit worse off. At worse we will sink without trace. Why would anyone take that risk? Especially now we know just how impossible its going to be to unravel ourselves from even the customs union. It just ain't happening

 

Seventeen and a half million stupid folk walking around and many of them would have a heart attack if they took on the risks Barry has in life ... Stupid and risk averse another couple of names to add to the long list we've been called along with racists , Alf Garnett types and ill informed I suppose ... His magical crystal ball tells him the country that is the worlds 5th largest economy that has countries like America , Japan , Australia and the rest openly talking eagerly of wanting good trade deals with us will "sink without trace" because we are leaving the EU 8-)

Before we all get into a "my gonads are bigger than yours" contest over who is the more risk averse, consider this.

 

There is an international award called the Darwin Award. It recognises those who "have contributed to human evolution by selecting themselves out of the gene pool via death or sterilization by their own actions".

 

The smart manage risks, the foolish take them. Generally, the smart survive, while the foolish go on to gain the award. However, there is some debate as to whether those who fail in managing a risk should also be included among those gaining the award. Me? I couldn't possibly comment! :-D

 

But who are you , Barry or me to say what size risk we are taking if we don't yet know the terms (if any) we are to leave under ??? ... To have a blind ignorance of gains and losses on both sides of the argument is just that ... Its not that remainers don't have a point of course they do its more the way its put across by some as in insinuating all us Brexit voters are stupid , of low intelligence and ill informed ... That surely can't be right can it

[John52]

RogerC - 2017-10-07 1:07 PM

John52 - 2017-10-07 9:23 AM

The UNelected and Absurdly over-populated House of Lords alone is bigger than the Elected European Parliament for 28 countries!!!!!! And don't get me started on the UNelected Royal Family and Hangers On!!!!!!!! Why do we have an election to leave the EU, but no election to leave them?

Agreed the House of Lords has become a vehicle for political cronyism....so we agree on something.  However as usual it doesn't take much to get you started on the Royal bashing.  Depending which side of the fence one stands, and your side is all too clear, it is claimed the Royals either bring in an estimated £1,000,000,000(Brand Finance research company) or cost us £330,000,000 (Campaign group Republic).  So it is clear there is huge disparity in claims which sort of parallels the EU IN/OUT question.  Whatever the case I don't see the relevance of an argument over the Royals in the context of this EU debate........but then irrelevance has never stooped you in the past.

What is relevant (and you simply ignore) is that they are not elected.Maybe they are popular enough to get elected. In which case the best time to persuade them to have an election is now. So if their descendants turn out like Kim Jon Ung their subjects can vote them out.

[Brian Kirby]

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 5:34 PM.............................But who are you , Barry or me to say what size risk we are taking if we don't yet know the terms (if any) we are to leave under ??? ... To have a blind ignorance of gains and losses on both sides of the argument is just that ... Its not that remainers don't have a point of course they do its more the way its put across by some as in insinuating all us Brexit voters are stupid , of low intelligence and ill informed ... That surely can't be right can it

With all of which, Antony, I'm sure you'll be disappointed to learn, I wholeheartedly agree, and it isn't right! :-D

 

I was just trying to make a more general point about the allegation that those who chose the remain option are "risk averse". If we're sensible, we should all be risk averse, because its the best way to survive. There is no merit in taking avoidable risks. You'll know that better than many.

 

You are right, it is insulting to infer that those who voted leave (or remain, for that matter), are stupid, or of low intelligence.

 

I draw the line at ill informed though, because that would, I think, include all of us. That is why I keep complaining about the dearth of factual information on the implications of leaving. I would also quibble over the blind ignorant. To fall into that category one has first to have had the information, and then ignored it!

 

Nothing stopped the equivalent of a risk assessment being carried out by the government on both the referendum and its possible consequences (failed! :-)), or withdrawal from the EU and its foreseeable consequences (failed again! :-)). It is becoming more evident by the day that no such exercise was even contemplated (or if it was, it was so woefully inadequate no-one now dares refer to it!).

 

That assessment should have been published three months or more before the referendum, to allow the claims to be challenged and modified as necessary before the vote, so that we could all have voted on the basis of the best assessment of the pros and cons that could be made. Then, none of us need have been ill-informed (though the blind ignorant, by definition, would have survived unscathed. :-)) at the point of voting.

 

So, IMO, we shall need a second referendum once the terms are finalised, so that we can at last vote on what is actually on offer, and its potential advantages and disadvantages.

 

Personally, I don't think a parliamentary vote will suffice, because the decision has now become politicised. In truth it is not a party issue, as both parties are deeply split. This is no issue on which to employ the whips to keep MPs in line. If it were made a free vote then I might concede, but not otherwise. For the same reason I think an election would be an even worse proposal, because it would inevitably involve other matters that would dilute the Brexit issue, resulting in continuing argument over whether the result had been driven by Brexit, party loyalty, or the cost of eggs.

[snowie]

The reason we are in this situation.tion is because the Brexiteers started their "moaning" 40 years ago, and have finally got their way.

Why on earth should those of us who would rather be in than out, of a common market shut up for the next 40 years: unless we get acceptable terms?

I voted to remain, and will continue to admit that"..........sadly, not for 40 years

Cheers

Alan b

[antony1969]

snowie - 2017-10-07 7:35 PM

 

The reason we are in this situation.tion is because the Brexiteers started their "moaning" 40 years ago, and have finally got their way.

Why on earth should those of us who would rather be in than out, of a common market shut up for the next 40 years: unless we get acceptable terms?

I voted to remain, and will continue to admit that"..........sadly, not for 40 years

Cheers

Alan b

 

Don't think anyones saying shut up Alan ... Unfortunately for your lot sometimes the insults towards those who won the referendum aren't helpful and don't add to reasoned debate

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 3:29 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:24 AM

 

I can't believe that after all this time and now having learned just how vital both the single market and customs union is (not to mention almost impossible to leave) that the Brexiteers are still simply relying on blind faith that it will be alright on the night and anyone considering the arguments against having looked at the mounting evidence against Brexit is just a doom and gloom moaner.

 

Saying lets just see what happens and how can anyone know the outcome is just plain stupid. I don't think its right to call Brexiteers stupid or kind but if you advocate such a fingers crossed and hope for the best attitude then you must be.

 

We don't know what will happen just like the man who jumped off the sky scraper who all the way down kept saying "so far so good" but if we do jump off the skyscraper without a parachute or something "soft" to land on I think the outcome is obvious to all but the blind Brexit faithful.

 

As for being risk averse! Don't make me laugh! :D I've taken risks all my life both in business and personal. Risks that would make many have a heart attack or fill their pants but generally to take a big risk there has to be a chance of a huge possible reward and with Brexit there simply isn't. At best we will leave in name only and will only end up a bit worse off. At worse we will sink without trace. Why would anyone take that risk? Especially now we know just how impossible its going to be to unravel ourselves from even the customs union. It just ain't happening

 

Seventeen and a half million stupid folk walking around and many of them would have a heart attack if they took on the risks Barry has in life ... Stupid and risk averse another couple of names to add to the long list we've been called along with racists , Alf Garnett types and ill informed I suppose ... His magical crystal ball tells him the country that is the worlds 5th largest economy that has countries like America , Japan , Australia and the rest openly talking eagerly of wanting good trade deals with us will "sink without trace" because we are leaving the EU 8-)

 

Read it again Antony. I said I don't think its right or kind to call Brexiteers stupid but went on to say that perhaps after what we now know about the implications of leaving the single market and what seems to me like the impossibility of leavung the customs union anyone who still thinks it's going to be ok to just forget about all that, stop debating it and just tell the EU to feck right off and storm out for a hard Brexit must be a bit tapped.

 

The vast majority of people and mps are coming to that conclusion now without a doubt which is not stupid but sensible. The only option we have is to strike the best deal possible which will dissapoint many as we will just end up like Norway. The eu ain't backing down and why should they? And hopefully we are not stupid and will have to just accept that we pretty much leave in name only.

 

As for those queuing up to trade with us. The only chance of us getting any kind of good deal with them is if we don't crash out so effectively remain otherwise they will rip us to pieces. Especially the USA. They are not our friends, especially now

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 7:55 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 3:29 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:24 AM

 

I can't believe that after all this time and now having learned just how vital both the single market and customs union is (not to mention almost impossible to leave) that the Brexiteers are still simply relying on blind faith that it will be alright on the night and anyone considering the arguments against having looked at the mounting evidence against Brexit is just a doom and gloom moaner.

 

Saying lets just see what happens and how can anyone know the outcome is just plain stupid. I don't think its right to call Brexiteers stupid or kind but if you advocate such a fingers crossed and hope for the best attitude then you must be.

 

We don't know what will happen just like the man who jumped off the sky scraper who all the way down kept saying "so far so good" but if we do jump off the skyscraper without a parachute or something "soft" to land on I think the outcome is obvious to all but the blind Brexit faithful.

 

As for being risk averse! Don't make me laugh! :D I've taken risks all my life both in business and personal. Risks that would make many have a heart attack or fill their pants but generally to take a big risk there has to be a chance of a huge possible reward and with Brexit there simply isn't. At best we will leave in name only and will only end up a bit worse off. At worse we will sink without trace. Why would anyone take that risk? Especially now we know just how impossible its going to be to unravel ourselves from even the customs union. It just ain't happening

 

Seventeen and a half million stupid folk walking around and many of them would have a heart attack if they took on the risks Barry has in life ... Stupid and risk averse another couple of names to add to the long list we've been called along with racists , Alf Garnett types and ill informed I suppose ... His magical crystal ball tells him the country that is the worlds 5th largest economy that has countries like America , Japan , Australia and the rest openly talking eagerly of wanting good trade deals with us will "sink without trace" because we are leaving the EU 8-)

 

Read it again Antony. I said I don't think its right or kind to call Brexiteers stupid but went on to say that perhaps after what we now know about the implications of leaving the single market and what seems to me like the impossibility of leavung the customs union anyone who still thinks it's going to be ok to just forget about all that, stop debating it and just tell the EU to feck right off and storm out for a hard Brexit must be a bit tapped.

 

The vast majority of people and mps are coming to that conclusion now without a doubt which is not stupid but sensible. The only option we have is to strike the best deal possible which will dissapoint many as we will just end up like Norway. The eu ain't backing down and why should they? And hopefully we are not stupid and will have to just accept that we pretty much leave in name only.

 

As for those queuing up to trade with us. The only chance of us getting any kind of good deal with them is if we don't crash out so effectively remain otherwise they will rip us to pieces. Especially the USA. They are not our friends, especially now

 

Eh ??? ... In your original post you say Brexit voters are stupid , then say its not right to call Brexit voters stupid and then say we must be stupid ... Your more like Diane Abbot than Diane Abbot ... Why exactly aren't the USA our friends ??? ... I thought Obama wasn't our friend , back of the queue , dump Churchills bust kind of not our friend ... POTUS Sir Donald Trump couldn't have been clearer we are his friends ... Clarify your USA position young man

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-07 7:01 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 5:34 PM............................. That is why I keep complaining about the dearth of factual information on the implications of leaving.

At risk of a cut quote coming across the wrong way.....

Your comment is one that keeps coming back as one of the main reasons the remain camp can appears not able to accept the outcome of the referendum.  It is clearly an unachievable aspiration.  You and the remain camp are asking for the result before the horses are even out of the gate which is clearly not going to be the case.

What one can look at is the present situation vis a vis the EU, it's ambitions, it's views on expansionism, it's democratic processes to name a few but most importantly IMO it's accountability and interference in Sovereign matters all of which I view as being driven towards a European superstate dominated by Germany and France and of which I have no  desire to see the UK be a part of.   Agressive interference in the political construct of Greece aside(a despicable piece of interference in a nations internal affairs and appointments) surely the fact that Juncker is allowed to issue the threats and bullying comments he has so far is an indication of just how the EU leadership (Germany and France) sees itself/themselves...........overbearing, overpowering and all important............dominant.  Not something I feel the UK should be a part of.

[Barryd999]

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 8:11 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 7:55 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 3:29 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:24 AM

 

I can't believe that after all this time and now having learned just how vital both the single market and customs union is (not to mention almost impossible to leave) that the Brexiteers are still simply relying on blind faith that it will be alright on the night and anyone considering the arguments against having looked at the mounting evidence against Brexit is just a doom and gloom moaner.

 

Saying lets just see what happens and how can anyone know the outcome is just plain stupid. I don't think its right to call Brexiteers stupid or kind but if you advocate such a fingers crossed and hope for the best attitude then you must be.

 

We don't know what will happen just like the man who jumped off the sky scraper who all the way down kept saying "so far so good" but if we do jump off the skyscraper without a parachute or something "soft" to land on I think the outcome is obvious to all but the blind Brexit faithful.

 

As for being risk averse! Don't make me laugh! :D I've taken risks all my life both in business and personal. Risks that would make many have a heart attack or fill their pants but generally to take a big risk there has to be a chance of a huge possible reward and with Brexit there simply isn't. At best we will leave in name only and will only end up a bit worse off. At worse we will sink without trace. Why would anyone take that risk? Especially now we know just how impossible its going to be to unravel ourselves from even the customs union. It just ain't happening

 

Seventeen and a half million stupid folk walking around and many of them would have a heart attack if they took on the risks Barry has in life ... Stupid and risk averse another couple of names to add to the long list we've been called along with racists , Alf Garnett types and ill informed I suppose ... His magical crystal ball tells him the country that is the worlds 5th largest economy that has countries like America , Japan , Australia and the rest openly talking eagerly of wanting good trade deals with us will "sink without trace" because we are leaving the EU 8-)

 

Read it again Antony. I said I don't think its right or kind to call Brexiteers stupid but went on to say that perhaps after what we now know about the implications of leaving the single market and what seems to me like the impossibility of leavung the customs union anyone who still thinks it's going to be ok to just forget about all that, stop debating it and just tell the EU to feck right off and storm out for a hard Brexit must be a bit tapped.

 

The vast majority of people and mps are coming to that conclusion now without a doubt which is not stupid but sensible. The only option we have is to strike the best deal possible which will dissapoint many as we will just end up like Norway. The eu ain't backing down and why should they? And hopefully we are not stupid and will have to just accept that we pretty much leave in name only.

 

As for those queuing up to trade with us. The only chance of us getting any kind of good deal with them is if we don't crash out so effectively remain otherwise they will rip us to pieces. Especially the USA. They are not our friends, especially now

 

Eh ??? ... In your original post you say Brexit voters are stupid , then say its not right to call Brexit voters stupid and then say we must be stupid ... Your more like Diane Abbot than Diane Abbot ... Why exactly aren't the USA our friends ??? ... I thought Obama wasn't our friend , back of the queue , dump Churchills bust kind of not our friend ... POTUS Sir Donald Trump couldn't have been clearer we are his friends ... Clarify your USA position young man

 

Ffs Antony are you stupid??

 

Read wot I writ again! :D

 

If we crash out with no deal the good ole us of a will defo do us a deal im sure but one that is completely in their favour. They and the other big players will circle

Like vultures knowing we are desperate. Trump is particularly protectionist and any deal will reflect that. I've worked in America and know how they tick. Bessy pals to your face but will stab you in the back and stitch you up quicker than you can say "Trump is a knob" first chance they get and also drop you like a stone if your no longer of benefit to them.

 

Best outcome would be remain in single market and customs Union and then strike deals outside as well from a much stronger position.

[RogerC]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:37 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 8:11 PM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 7:55 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 3:29 PM

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:24 AMI can't believe that after all this time and now having learned just how vital both the single market and customs union is (not to mention almost impossible to leave) that the Brexiteers are still simply relying on blind faith that it will be alright on the night and anyone considering the arguments against having looked at the mounting evidence against Brexit is just a doom and gloom moaner.Saying lets just see what happens and how can anyone know the outcome is just plain stupid. I don't think its right to call Brexiteers stupid or kind but if you advocate such a fingers crossed and hope for the best attitude then you must be.We don't know what will happen just like the man who jumped off the sky scraper who all the way down kept saying "so far so good" but if we do jump off the skyscraper without a parachute or something "soft" to land on I think the outcome is obvious to all but the blind Brexit faithful.As for being risk averse! Don't make me laugh! :D I've taken risks all my life both in business and personal. Risks that would make many have a heart attack or fill their pants but generally to take a big risk there has to be a chance of a huge possible reward and with Brexit there simply isn't. At best we will leave in name only and will only end up a bit worse off. At worse we will sink without trace. Why would anyone take that risk? Especially now we know just how impossible its going to be to unravel ourselves from even the customs union. It just ain't happening

Seventeen and a half million stupid folk walking around and many of them would have a heart attack if they took on the risks Barry has in life ... Stupid and risk averse another couple of names to add to the long list we've been called along with racists , Alf Garnett types and ill informed I suppose ... His magical crystal ball tells him the country that is the worlds 5th largest economy that has countries like America , Japan , Australia and the rest openly talking eagerly of wanting good trade deals with us will "sink without trace" because we are leaving the EU 8-)

Read it again Antony. I said I don't think its right or kind to call Brexiteers stupid but went on to say that perhaps after what we now know about the implications of leaving the single market and what seems to me like the impossibility of leavung the customs union anyone who still thinks it's going to be ok to just forget about all that, stop debating it and just tell the EU to feck right off and storm out for a hard Brexit must be a bit tapped. The vast majority of people and mps are coming to that conclusion now without a doubt which is not stupid but sensible. The only option we have is to strike the best deal possible which will dissapoint many as we will just end up like Norway. The eu ain't backing down and why should they? And hopefully we are not stupid and will have to just accept that we pretty much leave in name only.As for those queuing up to trade with us. The only chance of us getting any kind of good deal with them is if we don't crash out so effectively remain otherwise they will rip us to pieces. Especially the USA. They are not our friends, especially now

Eh ??? ... In your original post you say Brexit voters are stupid , then say its not right to call Brexit voters stupid and then say we must be stupid ... Your more like Diane Abbot than Diane Abbot ... Why exactly aren't the USA our friends ??? ... I thought Obama wasn't our friend , back of the queue , dump Churchills bust kind of not our friend ... POTUS Sir Donald Trump couldn't have been clearer we are his friends ... Clarify your USA position young man

Ffs Antony are you stupid??Read wot I writ again! :DIf we crash out with no deal the good ole us of a will defo do us a deal im sure but one that is completely in their favour. They and the other big players will circleLike vultures knowing we are desperate. Trump is particularly protectionist and any deal will reflect that. I've worked in America and know how they tick. Bessy pals to your face but will stab you in the back and stitch you up quicker than you can say "Trump is a knob" first chance they get and also drop you like a stone if your no longer of benefit to them.Best outcome would be remain in single market and customs Union and then strike deals outside as well from a much stronger position.

Is that an admission of the remoaners 'crystal ball of certainty' shining a light of doubt?   I don't belieeeeeeeve it....  :-)

[John52]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:37 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 8:11 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 7:55 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 3:29 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:24 AM

 

I can't believe that after all this time and now having learned just how vital both the single market and customs union is (not to mention almost impossible to leave) that the Brexiteers are still simply relying on blind faith that it will be alright on the night and anyone considering the arguments against having looked at the mounting evidence against Brexit is just a doom and gloom moaner.

 

Saying lets just see what happens and how can anyone know the outcome is just plain stupid. I don't think its right to call Brexiteers stupid or kind but if you advocate such a fingers crossed and hope for the best attitude then you must be.

 

We don't know what will happen just like the man who jumped off the sky scraper who all the way down kept saying "so far so good" but if we do jump off the skyscraper without a parachute or something "soft" to land on I think the outcome is obvious to all but the blind Brexit faithful.

 

As for being risk averse! Don't make me laugh! :D I've taken risks all my life both in business and personal. Risks that would make many have a heart attack or fill their pants but generally to take a big risk there has to be a chance of a huge possible reward and with Brexit there simply isn't. At best we will leave in name only and will only end up a bit worse off. At worse we will sink without trace. Why would anyone take that risk? Especially now we know just how impossible its going to be to unravel ourselves from even the customs union. It just ain't happening

 

Seventeen and a half million stupid folk walking around and many of them would have a heart attack if they took on the risks Barry has in life ... Stupid and risk averse another couple of names to add to the long list we've been called along with racists , Alf Garnett types and ill informed I suppose ... His magical crystal ball tells him the country that is the worlds 5th largest economy that has countries like America , Japan , Australia and the rest openly talking eagerly of wanting good trade deals with us will "sink without trace" because we are leaving the EU 8-)

 

Read it again Antony. I said I don't think its right or kind to call Brexiteers stupid but went on to say that perhaps after what we now know about the implications of leaving the single market and what seems to me like the impossibility of leavung the customs union anyone who still thinks it's going to be ok to just forget about all that, stop debating it and just tell the EU to feck right off and storm out for a hard Brexit must be a bit tapped.

 

The vast majority of people and mps are coming to that conclusion now without a doubt which is not stupid but sensible. The only option we have is to strike the best deal possible which will dissapoint many as we will just end up like Norway. The eu ain't backing down and why should they? And hopefully we are not stupid and will have to just accept that we pretty much leave in name only.

 

As for those queuing up to trade with us. The only chance of us getting any kind of good deal with them is if we don't crash out so effectively remain otherwise they will rip us to pieces. Especially the USA. They are not our friends, especially now

 

Eh ??? ... In your original post you say Brexit voters are stupid , then say its not right to call Brexit voters stupid and then say we must be stupid ... Your more like Diane Abbot than Diane Abbot ... Why exactly aren't the USA our friends ??? ... I thought Obama wasn't our friend , back of the queue , dump Churchills bust kind of not our friend ... POTUS Sir Donald Trump couldn't have been clearer we are his friends ... Clarify your USA position young man

 

Ffs Antony are you stupid??

 

Read wot I writ again! :D

 

If we crash out with no deal the good ole us of a will defo do us a deal im sure but one that is completely in their favour. They and the other big players will circle

Like vultures knowing we are desperate. Trump is particularly protectionist and any deal will reflect that. I've worked in America and know how they tick. Bessy pals to your face but will stab you in the back and stitch you up quicker than you can say "Trump is a knob" first chance they get and also drop you like a stone if your no longer of benefit to them.

 

Best outcome would be remain in single market and customs Union and then strike deals outside as well from a much stronger position.

 

Agreed - except I don't know if the EU will let us remain in single market and customs Union and then strike deals outside as well

Isn't that what they have been calling 'having your cake and eating it'?

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:37 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 8:11 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 7:55 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-07 3:29 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2017-10-07 9:24 AM

 

I can't believe that after all this time and now having learned just how vital both the single market and customs union is (not to mention almost impossible to leave) that the Brexiteers are still simply relying on blind faith that it will be alright on the night and anyone considering the arguments against having looked at the mounting evidence against Brexit is just a doom and gloom moaner.

 

Saying lets just see what happens and how can anyone know the outcome is just plain stupid. I don't think its right to call Brexiteers stupid or kind but if you advocate such a fingers crossed and hope for the best attitude then you must be.

 

We don't know what will happen just like the man who jumped off the sky scraper who all the way down kept saying "so far so good" but if we do jump off the skyscraper without a parachute or something "soft" to land on I think the outcome is obvious to all but the blind Brexit faithful.

 

As for being risk averse! Don't make me laugh! :D I've taken risks all my life both in business and personal. Risks that would make many have a heart attack or fill their pants but generally to take a big risk there has to be a chance of a huge possible reward and with Brexit there simply isn't. At best we will leave in name only and will only end up a bit worse off. At worse we will sink without trace. Why would anyone take that risk? Especially now we know just how impossible its going to be to unravel ourselves from even the customs union. It just ain't happening

 

Seventeen and a half million stupid folk walking around and many of them would have a heart attack if they took on the risks Barry has in life ... Stupid and risk averse another couple of names to add to the long list we've been called along with racists , Alf Garnett types and ill informed I suppose ... His magical crystal ball tells him the country that is the worlds 5th largest economy that has countries like America , Japan , Australia and the rest openly talking eagerly of wanting good trade deals with us will "sink without trace" because we are leaving the EU 8-)

 

Read it again Antony. I said I don't think its right or kind to call Brexiteers stupid but went on to say that perhaps after what we now know about the implications of leaving the single market and what seems to me like the impossibility of leavung the customs union anyone who still thinks it's going to be ok to just forget about all that, stop debating it and just tell the EU to feck right off and storm out for a hard Brexit must be a bit tapped.

 

The vast majority of people and mps are coming to that conclusion now without a doubt which is not stupid but sensible. The only option we have is to strike the best deal possible which will dissapoint many as we will just end up like Norway. The eu ain't backing down and why should they? And hopefully we are not stupid and will have to just accept that we pretty much leave in name only.

 

As for those queuing up to trade with us. The only chance of us getting any kind of good deal with them is if we don't crash out so effectively remain otherwise they will rip us to pieces. Especially the USA. They are not our friends, especially now

 

Eh ??? ... In your original post you say Brexit voters are stupid , then say its not right to call Brexit voters stupid and then say we must be stupid ... Your more like Diane Abbot than Diane Abbot ... Why exactly aren't the USA our friends ??? ... I thought Obama wasn't our friend , back of the queue , dump Churchills bust kind of not our friend ... POTUS Sir Donald Trump couldn't have been clearer we are his friends ... Clarify your USA position young man

 

Ffs Antony are you stupid??

 

Read wot I writ again! :D

 

If we crash out with no deal the good ole us of a will defo do us a deal im sure but one that is completely in their favour. They and the other big players will circle

Like vultures knowing we are desperate. Trump is particularly protectionist and any deal will reflect that. I've worked in America and know how they tick. Bessy pals to your face but will stab you in the back and stitch you up quicker than you can say "Trump is a knob" first chance they get and also drop you like a stone if your no longer of benefit to them.

 

Best outcome would be remain in single market and customs Union and then strike deals outside as well from a much stronger position.

 

Yes I am stupid you've already told me ... Read it again and Im getting Im stupid again ... Ive not worked in the States though my youngest has twice so I don't have the superior knowledge of how they tick like you but I would imagine if you've worked in the States and been crapped on in business then thats Business Barry and that happens here , there and everywhere its not just an American thing ... You'd rather have a special relationship with Mrs Merkel and Mr Juncker than a Trump America I guess ... By the way to add to your labelling Brexit voters as stupid your now labelling Americans as back stabbers , not nice ... You've been playing with Bullet too long B-)

[Barryd999]

You know I don't think your stupid Antony but you like to twist what I say and others to make out the 17 m Brexit voters are being victimised and insulted. Your not daft at all which is why I can't understand given the evidence and knowing what we know now why anyone would still entertain the possible option of a hard Brexit. It's just not going to work. I think some have got Brexit tunnel vision and are not stupid but refuse to consider the facts and consequences that are building up around us.

 

Of course I would rather deal with junker and Merkal than trump! Trump is a complete basket case and if you think we have had a crap deal with the EU wait until the yanks get started when we are desperate.

 

As much as its going to be painful for so many people to accept I think it's time to accept that we are better off with the Devil we know.

[John52]

Brexit could theoretically be cancelled: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/07/theresa-may-secret-advice-brexit-eu

Although I think it more likely the interests of politicians (who have made promises they can't keep) will be put before the interests of the people.

So Brexit will be forced through at any price. :-(

[antony1969]

Barryd999 - 2017-10-08 7:40 AM

 

You know I don't think your stupid Antony but you like to twist what I say and others to make out the 17 m Brexit voters are being victimised and insulted. Your not daft at all which is why I can't understand given the evidence and knowing what we know now why anyone would still entertain the possible option of a hard Brexit. It's just not going to work. I think some have got Brexit tunnel vision and are not stupid but refuse to consider the facts and consequences that are building up around us.

 

Of course I would rather deal with junker and Merkal than trump! Trump is a complete basket case and if you think we have had a crap deal with the EU wait until the yanks get started when we are desperate.

 

As much as its going to be painful for so many people to accept I think it's time to accept that we are better off with the Devil we know.

 

I haven't twisted anything and don't know anyone with Brexit tunnel vision and for every fact you claim that is building up around us to suggest gloom I could give one that suggests boom ... The evidence to me suggests as I have always said that we will walk away with no deal and then thankfully no further transition period ... The sooner we are out the sooner we look forward for me and many others ... Your crystal ball tells you we are in for a crap US deal , I don't have a crystal ball so can't comment

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2017-10-08 7:45 AM

 

Brexit could theoretically be cancelled: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/07/theresa-may-secret-advice-brexit-eu

Although I think it more likely the interests of politicians (who have made promises they can't keep) will be put before the interests of the people.

So Brexit will be forced through at any price. :-(

 

Any price will seem cheap .......As the alternative is uncivil war >:-) .......

 

 

[bigparkie]

Uncivil war!no contest young v old .??

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2017-10-07 5:02 PM........................Therefore I consider your 'wait and see' approach to be nothing other than a willingness to allow one self serving, egotistical and pompous member to continue to effectively steal £150,000,000 (and growing), per year to sate it's appetite for self importance. Lastly it is interesting that you are prepared to justify grand theft yet lambaste those in the referendum campaign for false claims with regard to the fiscal situation.

Oh Roger, you do so love putting into other's mouths words they did not speak, and then arguing with them! :-) Plus all those derogatory terms to up the emotional load of your argument. :-)

 

I assume you presented £150,000,000 because all those zeros give the biggest emotional hit. I chose instead to present it in context, which is that it is 0.002766% of total UK central government spending. It is just a different way of presenting the same sum of money. The sum doesn't change, but the context gives it its significance.

 

Note also that your figure is not what the UK pays, but is the gross cost of the moves. The rest is paid by the other 27, most of whom are now signalling that they are fed up with it. The veto was proposed by Sarkozy, who was two presidents back Times change. The president of France is now Macron. Presidents change.

 

You elevate this spend to the breathless status of "grand theft": so, if one British region gets a bit more of the national budget than another, is that also grand theft?

 

You omit that France (along with Germany and Italy) contributes more to the EU budget than the UK. You speak in such apocalyptic terms that balance becomes difficult to maintain.

 

You seem to forget that all national, and pan-national, institutions change with time, including those in the UK. They do so when the pressures for change become overwhelming. Are you really implying that the EU has not changed in the in the 40 or so years since we joined, or that the UK hasn't changed in the same timescale? Are you arguing that there is some immutable base that represents the UK, or the EU, or any of its member states, that is frozen in time?

 

What I say is that it, and the rest of us, will change again and again as the political, and international pressures on our states and institutions change. So, why do we need to make abrupt changes now? Are we under some existential threat? Where is the urgency? Really?

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-08 1:04 PM

RogerC - 2017-10-07 5:02 PM........................Therefore I consider your 'wait and see' approach to be nothing other than a willingness to allow one self serving, egotistical and pompous member to continue to effectively steal £150,000,000 (and growing), per year to sate it's appetite for self importance. Lastly it is interesting that you are prepared to justify grand theft yet lambaste those in the referendum campaign for false claims with regard to the fiscal situation.

Oh Roger, you do so love putting into other's mouths words they did not speak, and then arguing with them! :-) Plus all those derogatory terms to up the emotional load of your argument. :-) I assume you presented £150,000,000 because all those zeros give the biggest emotional hit. I chose instead to present it in context, which is that it is 0.002766% of total UK central government spending. It is just a different way of presenting the same sum of money. The sum doesn't change, but the context gives it its significance.Note also that your figure is not what the UK pays, but is the gross cost of the moves. The rest is paid by the other 27, most of whom are now signalling that they are fed up with it. The veto was proposed by Sarkozy, who was two presidents back Times change. The president of France is now Macron. Presidents change.You elevate this spend to the breathless status of "grand theft": so, if one British region gets a bit more of the national budget than another, is that also grand theft? You omit that France (along with Germany and Italy) contributes more to the EU budget than the UK. You speak in such apocalyptic terms that balance becomes difficult to maintain. You seem to forget that all national, and pan-national, institutions change with time, including those in the UK. They do so when the pressures for change become overwhelming. Are you really implying that the EU has not changed in the in the 40 or so years since we joined, or that the UK hasn't changed in the same timescale? Are you arguing that there is some immutable base that represents the UK, or the EU, or any of its member states, that is frozen in time? What I say is that it, and the rest of us, will change again and again as the political, and international pressures on our states and institutions change. So, why do we need to make abrupt changes now? Are we under some existential threat? Where is the urgency? Really?

Emotional hit....No.  I merely present things as the man in the street looks at things.  Of course anyone can bury a minute looking percentage but tell Joe Public that the EU is squandering enough cash to build a state of the art hospital 'every' 14-18 months on the Strasbourg move which is coveted and protected by the French and he will be appalled.   I never said or intimated that the sum is what the UK pays so words...mouth....speak??

You are twisting words and premise once more.....regions getting more funding than another as theft?  I don't think so and to suggest it is is just plain stupid.  It is nothing remotely like the self interested perpetuation of the Strasbourg move by the French.  That is a profligate waste of money,  some EU members have commented so but done nothing to halt it.  The money is not spent to improve or to deliver an EU project ergo your analogy is irrelevant.

So three other countries pay in more than the UK......that doesn't give them or indeed any other country the right to squander £150m a year on a self serving egotistical exercise.  I fail to see the relevance of your point.

I agree things change.....stating the bleedin obvious really adds nothing to the debate......but how long does one wait to bring a self serving club member under control?  This has been going on since 1992 if my research is correct so how much longer does one give an institution that knowingly abuses it's power and our money??

Your post comes across as one who prefers the insignificance of percentage figures rather than 'between the eyes' hard hitting numbers, the wait and see attitude towards the EU changing when it has all the reactions of a startled sloth.  So abrupt changes now?  Too damn right.  There is no justification for the financial misappropriation that we are now aware of so why do they persist?  Is it your opinion that as a percentage the numbers are so small it warrants sitting back to wait and see if the 'sloth' moves before it spends a few hundred millions more?  If so then we are certainly at opposing ends of the argument and I am surprised you consider the current situation vis a vis Strasbourg something that we can sit back and wait for the 'change' to come. They have had more than sufficient time already.  I see no reason for it to continue.

Thankfully we will be out of it soon and then they can squander their own cash to their egotistical hearts content.

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2017-10-08 5:48 PM...................

1 Is it your opinion that as a percentage the numbers are so small it warrants sitting back to wait and see if the 'sloth' moves before it spends a few hundred millions more?  

 

2 If so then we are certainly at opposing ends of the argument and I am surprised you consider the current situation vis a vis Strasbourg something that we can sit back and wait for the 'change' to come.

 

1 No, I am not advocating merely sitting back and waiting. I am advocating staying in the EU and working to improve it.

 

2 Agreed, but then, as above, I think we should stay in, get stuck in, and influence how it develops.

 

People all over Europe are, in differing ways, signalling their discontent with the present state of the EU. That discontent will result in political change in the individual states, which will translate into political pressure on the EU, which will bring change. We should ride that wave. Were we to work the EU system as other members do, we would canvass our views among the individual member states, develop alliances, and bring about change.

 

The EU is not a monolith, even if it tries to look like one, it is an administration whose executive remains within the control of its members. It is the sum of the opinions of its members. It is the members who dictate what the EU does, not the EU itself. It doesn't have that power. I'd far sooner we were inside meddling, than outside with no influence.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-08 6:32 PM

 

 

The EU is not a monolith, even if it tries to look like one, it is an administration whose executive remains within the control of its members.

 

Correct...... its a stooge of its most influential member......Germany *-) .......

 

 

[RogerC]

I admire your optimism Brian albeit in my judgement misguided.  The EU has morphed into a bureaucratic monster dominated by Germany and France.  In terms of finance it is extremely poor in administering and accounting.  In terms of treatment of member states one only need look at Greece.  In terms of idealism (albeit he will not be around for ever) one only needs to look at the threatening comments emanating from Juncker.   In terms of who pulls the strings one need only to look towards Germany and France although as you are convinced of the democratic processes at work within that edifice of smoke and mirrors I doubt we will agree on this one....or indeed any other.  In terms of democracy one only need look towards Belgium and it's Wallonia region which has within it's own political construct the power to delay indefinitely any measures it feels it does not like or of no or little benefit to Belgium, for example the recent trade deal with Canada.

To look towards the EU and expect the UK to have had any real influence in it's development I consider to be folly.  We, the UK, have managed little in terms of real influence in the direction of the EU over the years so I see no reason, harbour no hope or indeed express any anticipation that the leopard will change it's spots in the near or interim future.

[snowie]

Brian Kirby - 2017-10-08 6:32

 

1 No, I am not advocating merely sitting back and waiting. I am advocating staying in the EU and working to improve it.

 

2 Agreed, but then, as above, I think we should stay in, get stuck in, and influence how it develops.

 

 

Now you are getting to the crux of it Brian!

The problem is that the Tory Party has never got stuck in, why, because being a club of sorts, and a "socialist club " at that, a bit like a working men's club, it is not of interest to Tories. Tories generally don't belong to clubs that don't confer some "advantage" a bit like private education and private medicine, institutions where you get some substantial benefit for your membership subscriptions.another problem with the EU is that all members have equal rights.

Sadly, with our first past the post electoral system we could never have sufficient stability to keep us fully

committed to working for change, after all, those changes would benefit all members, not just us!

It's a real pity that it changed from a "Common Market" laudible though the motives may have been.

 

I accept that not all Tories are the same, in fact some of my best friends are Tories, and fundamentally nice people, but they are in the minority I think ( the nasty party) had some basis in fact I think,

Regards

Alan b