Hate on The Street

[Guest pelmetman]

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 5:34 PM

But there are those who maintain it is the EU that has delivered peace in Europe over the decades so does it really matter who/which outfit gets into office in Austria because the EU will stop the rise of any extreme right organisation commencing anything coming close to the Nazi experiments.........won't it?

I remain confident that it will. From my perspective it is a great pity that the UK, with all we have to offer in terms of our values, will no longer be a part of that force for good. :-( Veronica

Oh dear Austria has moved to the right B-) ..........and a young right to >:-) .........No doubt the stupid loony lefties will start shouting their usual diatribe *-) .......

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2017-10-15 4:31 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 8:03 AM

 

Seems as its gone a bit squiffy this thread ...

Hardly.....as your post illustrates the desire to whip up the flame of hatred, so, still in keeping with the thread topic. Just a different country.

 

 

Austrians take to the polls today and it looks like the result will see a coalition between a far right party and a Conservative Party thats taken on much of the far rights policies ... Islam and immigration along with EU resentment are all major issues ... Looks like Austrias got it right , hopefully

Mention Austria and most people go misty eyed at the vision of a cute Julie Andrews running across the pastures in the Sound of Music. In fact that's still their major tourist attraction pulling in € millions from SoM touristy tat. Everyone visits Salzburg...it's a very beautiful city. But, thanks to the Nazis, Austria has a dark past in history most Austrians would prefer to forget and though it's not actually hidden, it's certainly not as open as in Germany (who find it impossible to ignore or airbrush out anyway).

 

Schloss Hartheim at Alkoven near Linz was used for the care of mental and physically disabled people.Many of the patients were children and young people.At the time it was known as a 'Facility for the Feebleminded, Imbecile, Idiotic and Cretinous'.....today we know better and would call it a mental health care home. It was funded and run with the best of intent by the Roman Catholic church. In 1938 this all changed with the Anschluss when Germany annexed Austria.

 

Hartheim became the birthplace of Hitlers 'Final Solution' where the T4 Euthanasia progamme was developed. He needed somewhere secure and well away from prying eyes to 'experiment' so what better than Schloss Hartheim with it's plentiful supply of human guinea pigs. That many were children didn't matter. But the early killings were crude using vans with the exhaust pipe fed inside. Typical of the Nazi mindset all this was timed and carefully logged. It was too slow and ineffective. Something better and more efficient had to be found to enable production line genocide.

 

Hartheim was where Franz Stangl, a fairly insignificant Austrian policeman, first learnt his 'craft'. Stangl went on to become the feared Camp Commandant of Treblinka and Sobibor, two of Germany's six Extermination camps. Stangl survived the war and imprisoned by the US but had concealed his true identity. He managed to escape and with the aid of the Vatican network who helped former SS members, made it to Brazil in 1951 where he settled and worked at the Volkswagen factory, amazingly using his own name.

 

Simon Wiesenthal tracked him down and an arrest warrant was issued in 1961 but it took another six years before Brazilian police finally arrested and extradited him to Germany where in 1970 he was put on trial for the deaths of 900,000 people. He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

 

Austrian authour Gitta Sereny was the last person to interview him alive. The book she wrote "Into That Darkness: From Mercy Killing to Mass Murder" makes chilling reading and one of the most horrendous accounts i've read regarding ww2 history. Typical of all Nazi's attempting to excuse their actions Stangl trotted out the well worn line, "my conscience is clear about what I did, i was doing my duty".

 

Unfortunately Stangl didn't rot in prison but died from heart failure just hours after Sereny had concluded her final interview with him.

 

You should visit Schloss Hartheim http://www.schloss-hartheim.at/index.php/en/

 

Also Mauthausen concentration camp which is not that far from Schloss Hartheim https://www.mauthausen-memorial.org/en

 

Lets have a look at what an Austrian citizen says, who unlike right wing fanatical mere youngsters Kurz or Strache, Holzer actually lived through those years of insanity;

 

For Erich Holzer, Sunday's election in Austria brings back disturbing memories of his childhood under the Nazis.

 

“I remember the woman who lived opposite us,” the 80-year-old says. “She told us she’d been happy when Hitler took over Austria. She wasn’t a Nazi, but Hitler made so many promises.

 

“There’d been this economic crisis, and he said he’d fix it and deal with unemployment, and she believed him. And I remember her at the end of the war, when she realised the mistake she’d made. I worry sometimes we may be heading back in that direction.”

 

Still think Austria has "got it right"?

 

You want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme?

 

My mistake the loony lefties started earlier *-) ........

 

It's funny how they manage to forget about Stalin :-| .......

 

 

[antony1969]

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 4:35 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 3:42 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 3:11 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 2:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 1:13 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 12:39 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 11:54 AM

RogerC - 2017-10-14 8:08 PMJust another demonstration of an individual assuming offence on behalf of others, and a council appearing to be so bloody PC it acts because of the damn race card.

Oh by the way if someone knows and understands the significance of the quotation on the mugs why should it be offensive?

Likewise why do people take offence at a Swastika?  It was (strangely enough like the word 'gay') hijacked by a group that turned it into something it was never intended to represent.  So why is the original intent permitted to buried and something innocent turned into a source of hate or indeed sexual gender?

I’m not an expert etymologist but I think that doesn’t disqualify me from observing that the usage and meanings of words or symbols has always changed over time to the extent that their historical use becomes irrelevant not least because, like me, most people only understand their current usage or most recent association once that usage reaches critical mass. I also don’t see why it is perceived as good or necessary for a word or symbol’s meaning to remain static. If they are not protected by copyright they are not owned by anyone and in that sense words or symbols cannot be misappropriated. It does present a bit of a minefield when such symbols or words have an association that hasn't reached critical mass. That is where the council and the person who reported it got it wrong in this instance. It may also be a bit of an own goal in that people may have become more curious about what could possibly be wrong with Knights Templar symbolism in the present day, potentially handing over the "ownership" of such symbolism to extremist elements in its modern incarnation. People who protest that there is absolutely nothing wrong with this symbolism do so through either a state of blissful and welcome ignorance or disingenuity and I think it likely that Mr Littlejohn falls into the latter category.Veronica

Some find the Union Flag offensive

Exactly Antony and illustrative of the point I am making thank you. The Union Flag is not, nor ever likely to be widely considered to be offensive so long as we don’t allow far right groups to use it in a manner which is inimical to the values of the majority of Brits who are rightly proud to display it as a symbol of those values.

What makes your values regarding The Union Flag more considered and more valid than someones who's politics are more to the right ???

I equate extreme right views with intolerance and discriminatory behaviour Antony. I’m not a fan of extremist views whether it be at the right or left of the spectrum. I think your average Brit doesn’t subscribe to either extreme because they are more than cognisant of the destruction such extremism can cause. That’s why I am proud to be a Brit. Veronica

But you showed your intolerance against a "poor little rich kid" and her "Daddy" the other day , hence your choice of words to describe them and you showed great resentment towards their financial status ... So it begs the question when is it intolerance OK and when is it not ???

My resentment was aimed at the system that created such inequality Antony not the people who were able to benefit from it. Veronica

Yes that was obvious in your post Veronica "poor little rich kid" was obviously a dig at the system

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-10-15 4:31 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 8:03 AM

 

Seems as its gone a bit squiffy this thread ...

Hardly.....as your post illustrates the desire to whip up the flame of hatred, so, still in keeping with the thread topic. Just a different country.

 

 

Austrians take to the polls today and it looks like the result will see a coalition between a far right party and a Conservative Party thats taken on much of the far rights policies ... Islam and immigration along with EU resentment are all major issues ... Looks like Austrias got it right , hopefully

Mention Austria and most people go misty eyed at the vision of a cute Julie Andrews running across the pastures in the Sound of Music. In fact that's still their major tourist attraction pulling in € millions from SoM touristy tat. Everyone visits Salzburg...it's a very beautiful city. But, thanks to the Nazis, Austria has a dark past in history most Austrians would prefer to forget and though it's not actually hidden, it's certainly not as open as in Germany (who find it impossible to ignore or airbrush out anyway).

 

Schloss Hartheim at Alkoven near Linz was used for the care of mental and physically disabled people.Many of the patients were children and young people.At the time it was known as a 'Facility for the Feebleminded, Imbecile, Idiotic and Cretinous'.....today we know better and would call it a mental health care home. It was funded and run with the best of intent by the Roman Catholic church. In 1938 this all changed with the Anschluss when Germany annexed Austria.

 

Hartheim became the birthplace of Hitlers 'Final Solution' where the T4 Euthanasia progamme was developed. He needed somewhere secure and well away from prying eyes to 'experiment' so what better than Schloss Hartheim with it's plentiful supply of human guinea pigs. That many were children didn't matter. But the early killings were crude using vans with the exhaust pipe fed inside. Typical of the Nazi mindset all this was timed and carefully logged. It was too slow and ineffective. Something better and more efficient had to be found to enable production line genocide.

 

Hartheim was where Franz Stangl, a fairly insignificant Austrian policeman, first learnt his 'craft'. Stangl went on to become the feared Camp Commandant of Treblinka and Sobibor, two of Germany's six Extermination camps. Stangl survived the war and imprisoned by the US but had concealed his true identity. He managed to escape and with the aid of the Vatican network who helped former SS members, made it to Brazil in 1951 where he settled and worked at the Volkswagen factory, amazingly using his own name.

 

Simon Wiesenthal tracked him down and an arrest warrant was issued in 1961 but it took another six years before Brazilian police finally arrested and extradited him to Germany where in 1970 he was put on trial for the deaths of 900,000 people. He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

 

Austrian authour Gitta Sereny was the last person to interview him alive. The book she wrote "Into That Darkness: From Mercy Killing to Mass Murder" makes chilling reading and one of the most horrendous accounts i've read regarding ww2 history. Typical of all Nazi's attempting to excuse their actions Stangl trotted out the well worn line, "my conscience is clear about what I did, i was doing my duty".

 

Unfortunately Stangl didn't rot in prison but died from heart failure just hours after Sereny had concluded her final interview with him.

 

You should visit Schloss Hartheim http://www.schloss-hartheim.at/index.php/en/

 

Also Mauthausen concentration camp which is not that far from Schloss Hartheim https://www.mauthausen-memorial.org/en

 

Lets have a look at what an Austrian citizen says, who unlike right wing fanatical mere youngsters Kurz or Strache, Holzer actually lived through those years of insanity;

 

For Erich Holzer, Sunday's election in Austria brings back disturbing memories of his childhood under the Nazis.

 

“I remember the woman who lived opposite us,” the 80-year-old says. “She told us she’d been happy when Hitler took over Austria. She wasn’t a Nazi, but Hitler made so many promises.

 

“There’d been this economic crisis, and he said he’d fix it and deal with unemployment, and she believed him. And I remember her at the end of the war, when she realised the mistake she’d made. I worry sometimes we may be heading back in that direction.”

 

Still think Austria has "got it right"?

 

You want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme?

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

[Guest pelmetman]

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:38 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-10-15 4:31 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 8:03 AM

 

Seems as its gone a bit squiffy this thread ...

Hardly.....as your post illustrates the desire to whip up the flame of hatred, so, still in keeping with the thread topic. Just a different country.

 

 

Austrians take to the polls today and it looks like the result will see a coalition between a far right party and a Conservative Party thats taken on much of the far rights policies ... Islam and immigration along with EU resentment are all major issues ... Looks like Austrias got it right , hopefully

Mention Austria and most people go misty eyed at the vision of a cute Julie Andrews running across the pastures in the Sound of Music. In fact that's still their major tourist attraction pulling in € millions from SoM touristy tat. Everyone visits Salzburg...it's a very beautiful city. But, thanks to the Nazis, Austria has a dark past in history most Austrians would prefer to forget and though it's not actually hidden, it's certainly not as open as in Germany (who find it impossible to ignore or airbrush out anyway).

 

Schloss Hartheim at Alkoven near Linz was used for the care of mental and physically disabled people.Many of the patients were children and young people.At the time it was known as a 'Facility for the Feebleminded, Imbecile, Idiotic and Cretinous'.....today we know better and would call it a mental health care home. It was funded and run with the best of intent by the Roman Catholic church. In 1938 this all changed with the Anschluss when Germany annexed Austria.

 

Hartheim became the birthplace of Hitlers 'Final Solution' where the T4 Euthanasia progamme was developed. He needed somewhere secure and well away from prying eyes to 'experiment' so what better than Schloss Hartheim with it's plentiful supply of human guinea pigs. That many were children didn't matter. But the early killings were crude using vans with the exhaust pipe fed inside. Typical of the Nazi mindset all this was timed and carefully logged. It was too slow and ineffective. Something better and more efficient had to be found to enable production line genocide.

 

Hartheim was where Franz Stangl, a fairly insignificant Austrian policeman, first learnt his 'craft'. Stangl went on to become the feared Camp Commandant of Treblinka and Sobibor, two of Germany's six Extermination camps. Stangl survived the war and imprisoned by the US but had concealed his true identity. He managed to escape and with the aid of the Vatican network who helped former SS members, made it to Brazil in 1951 where he settled and worked at the Volkswagen factory, amazingly using his own name.

 

Simon Wiesenthal tracked him down and an arrest warrant was issued in 1961 but it took another six years before Brazilian police finally arrested and extradited him to Germany where in 1970 he was put on trial for the deaths of 900,000 people. He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

 

Austrian authour Gitta Sereny was the last person to interview him alive. The book she wrote "Into That Darkness: From Mercy Killing to Mass Murder" makes chilling reading and one of the most horrendous accounts i've read regarding ww2 history. Typical of all Nazi's attempting to excuse their actions Stangl trotted out the well worn line, "my conscience is clear about what I did, i was doing my duty".

 

Unfortunately Stangl didn't rot in prison but died from heart failure just hours after Sereny had concluded her final interview with him.

 

You should visit Schloss Hartheim http://www.schloss-hartheim.at/index.php/en/

 

Also Mauthausen concentration camp which is not that far from Schloss Hartheim https://www.mauthausen-memorial.org/en

 

Lets have a look at what an Austrian citizen says, who unlike right wing fanatical mere youngsters Kurz or Strache, Holzer actually lived through those years of insanity;

 

For Erich Holzer, Sunday's election in Austria brings back disturbing memories of his childhood under the Nazis.

 

“I remember the woman who lived opposite us,” the 80-year-old says. “She told us she’d been happy when Hitler took over Austria. She wasn’t a Nazi, but Hitler made so many promises.

 

“There’d been this economic crisis, and he said he’d fix it and deal with unemployment, and she believed him. And I remember her at the end of the war, when she realised the mistake she’d made. I worry sometimes we may be heading back in that direction.”

 

Still think Austria has "got it right"?

 

You want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme?

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

 

Have to say the Austrian vote has given me hope that some of the EU young, have not been indoctrinated by the rabid left as they have been in the UK :-| ........

 

Maybe there is some hope for the Snowflake generation :-S .........

 

 

[antony1969]

pelmetman - 2017-10-15 8:27 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:38 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-10-15 4:31 PM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 8:03 AM

 

Seems as its gone a bit squiffy this thread ...

Hardly.....as your post illustrates the desire to whip up the flame of hatred, so, still in keeping with the thread topic. Just a different country.

 

 

Austrians take to the polls today and it looks like the result will see a coalition between a far right party and a Conservative Party thats taken on much of the far rights policies ... Islam and immigration along with EU resentment are all major issues ... Looks like Austrias got it right , hopefully

Mention Austria and most people go misty eyed at the vision of a cute Julie Andrews running across the pastures in the Sound of Music. In fact that's still their major tourist attraction pulling in € millions from SoM touristy tat. Everyone visits Salzburg...it's a very beautiful city. But, thanks to the Nazis, Austria has a dark past in history most Austrians would prefer to forget and though it's not actually hidden, it's certainly not as open as in Germany (who find it impossible to ignore or airbrush out anyway).

 

Schloss Hartheim at Alkoven near Linz was used for the care of mental and physically disabled people.Many of the patients were children and young people.At the time it was known as a 'Facility for the Feebleminded, Imbecile, Idiotic and Cretinous'.....today we know better and would call it a mental health care home. It was funded and run with the best of intent by the Roman Catholic church. In 1938 this all changed with the Anschluss when Germany annexed Austria.

 

Hartheim became the birthplace of Hitlers 'Final Solution' where the T4 Euthanasia progamme was developed. He needed somewhere secure and well away from prying eyes to 'experiment' so what better than Schloss Hartheim with it's plentiful supply of human guinea pigs. That many were children didn't matter. But the early killings were crude using vans with the exhaust pipe fed inside. Typical of the Nazi mindset all this was timed and carefully logged. It was too slow and ineffective. Something better and more efficient had to be found to enable production line genocide.

 

Hartheim was where Franz Stangl, a fairly insignificant Austrian policeman, first learnt his 'craft'. Stangl went on to become the feared Camp Commandant of Treblinka and Sobibor, two of Germany's six Extermination camps. Stangl survived the war and imprisoned by the US but had concealed his true identity. He managed to escape and with the aid of the Vatican network who helped former SS members, made it to Brazil in 1951 where he settled and worked at the Volkswagen factory, amazingly using his own name.

 

Simon Wiesenthal tracked him down and an arrest warrant was issued in 1961 but it took another six years before Brazilian police finally arrested and extradited him to Germany where in 1970 he was put on trial for the deaths of 900,000 people. He was sentenced to life imprisonment.

 

Austrian authour Gitta Sereny was the last person to interview him alive. The book she wrote "Into That Darkness: From Mercy Killing to Mass Murder" makes chilling reading and one of the most horrendous accounts i've read regarding ww2 history. Typical of all Nazi's attempting to excuse their actions Stangl trotted out the well worn line, "my conscience is clear about what I did, i was doing my duty".

 

Unfortunately Stangl didn't rot in prison but died from heart failure just hours after Sereny had concluded her final interview with him.

 

You should visit Schloss Hartheim http://www.schloss-hartheim.at/index.php/en/

 

Also Mauthausen concentration camp which is not that far from Schloss Hartheim https://www.mauthausen-memorial.org/en

 

Lets have a look at what an Austrian citizen says, who unlike right wing fanatical mere youngsters Kurz or Strache, Holzer actually lived through those years of insanity;

 

For Erich Holzer, Sunday's election in Austria brings back disturbing memories of his childhood under the Nazis.

 

“I remember the woman who lived opposite us,” the 80-year-old says. “She told us she’d been happy when Hitler took over Austria. She wasn’t a Nazi, but Hitler made so many promises.

 

“There’d been this economic crisis, and he said he’d fix it and deal with unemployment, and she believed him. And I remember her at the end of the war, when she realised the mistake she’d made. I worry sometimes we may be heading back in that direction.”

 

Still think Austria has "got it right"?

 

You want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme?

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

 

Have to say the Austrian vote has given me hope that some of the EU young, have not been indoctrinated by the rabid left as they have been in the UK :-| ........

 

Maybe there is some hope for the Snowflake generation :-S .........

 

 

Maybe Austria could hold a second vote .... Maybe they got it wrong B-)

[RogerC]

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 5:34 PM

But there are those who maintain it is the EU that has delivered peace in Europe over the decades so does it really matter who/which outfit gets into office in Austria because the EU will stop the rise of any extreme right organisation commencing anything coming close to the Nazi experiments.........won't it?

I remain confident that it will. From my perspective it is a great pity that the UK, with all we have to offer in terms of our values, will no longer be a part of that force for good. :-( Veronica

Twice in past the UK has intervened to restore peace and order, twice kicking Germany's backside and saving the French skins without being part of any European Union, defence pacts of mutual support yes but still remaining an independent national military so I don't see the difference today.  Not in the EU but members of a mutual defence pact....NATO.  I consider it is those very values held by the UK,  that which took us into the two world wars, that set us apart from a great many EU member states and I rejoice in the fact that those EU mandarins will be unable to tell the UK what it should, or shouldn't do with it's armed forces.

Back in the 1990s, the total failure of EU diplomacy helped speed former Yugoslavia into a brutal ethnic civil war. A fragile peace was finally imposed on those troubled lands not by the EU, but by Nato bombs and arm twisting backed by the Atlantic alliance's  military muscle. 

Extract from the Washington Post:

'European reluctance to support a military intervention with clear political goals proved to be the main obstacle to securing a settlement. The litany of European failures is astonishing—numerous cease-fire agreements have been broken and none of the main commitments undertaken by the Serb side have been respected. This should not have come as a surprise. The Serbs had no reason to curb their campaign so long as the EC refused to flex its muscles to punish previous infractions'. 

Hardly a glowing representation of EU providing effective military intervention.

Regarding EU expansionism this extract from the Telegraph in May 2016 says it much better than I ever could:

'Not for nothing did a bemused Mikhail Gorbachev – and as the man who presided over the dissolution of Russia's "evil empire" he should surely know – say that the most puzzling development in Europe over the past decade was the determination of the EU's leaders to reconstruct the Soviet Union, a failed state if there ever was one, on the soil of western Europe.

Gorbachev was speaking before the long arm of EU meddling reached as far as Ukraine, causing that vast country to split in two and threaten  war with Vladimir Putin's Russia – a slow-burn crisis that may yet erupt once more into open conflict.

The EU was warned/aware that it was treading on dodgy ground many years ago with regard to enticing Ukraine to enter the fold.  It is hardly surprising Russia has acted as it has with the threat of EU expansionism so close to home. 

So the EU's record at actually keeping or indeed restoring the peace is fairly shabby. And in fact it is not the bureaucratic and dictatorial edicts of the EU that have kept or restored the peace in Europe, but the forces of trade, travel and globalisation'.......and NATO.

Sort of shines a different light on that which is claimed by Europhiles who really, when it comes down to real 100% knowledge...chapter and verse..... know nothing about it when one compares their knowledge to that of a political giant like Gorbachev.  The evidence of EU inept military activity....or the bureaucrats inability to authorise military activity just goes to add more credence to the decision to leave.

If you are unaware of the situation regarding EU and the military question this might help:

Article 42 of the Treaty on European Union provides for substantial military integration within the institutional framework of the union:

Article 42.2 provides for complete integration....

It is Article 42.2 that Juncker and others are pressing for it's enactment sooner rather than later.  Therefore if you are willing to see our military subsumed by an EU Ministry of Defence and controlled from Brussels then staying in the EU is clearly one way to do so.

All I can say is that is just another reason to get the heck out of Dodge  :-)

[Violet1956]

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:33 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 4:35 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 3:42 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 3:11 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 2:13 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 1:13 PM

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 12:39 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-10-15 11:54 AM

RogerC - 2017-10-14 8:08 PMJust another demonstration of an individual assuming offence on behalf of others, and a council appearing to be so bloody PC it acts because of the damn race card.

Oh by the way if someone knows and understands the significance of the quotation on the mugs why should it be offensive?

Likewise why do people take offence at a Swastika?  It was (strangely enough like the word 'gay') hijacked by a group that turned it into something it was never intended to represent.  So why is the original intent permitted to buried and something innocent turned into a source of hate or indeed sexual gender?

I’m not an expert etymologist but I think that doesn’t disqualify me from observing that the usage and meanings of words or symbols has always changed over time to the extent that their historical use becomes irrelevant not least because, like me, most people only understand their current usage or most recent association once that usage reaches critical mass. I also don’t see why it is perceived as good or necessary for a word or symbol’s meaning to remain static. If they are not protected by copyright they are not owned by anyone and in that sense words or symbols cannot be misappropriated. It does present a bit of a minefield when such symbols or words have an association that hasn't reached critical mass. That is where the council and the person who reported it got it wrong in this instance. It may also be a bit of an own goal in that people may have become more curious about what could possibly be wrong with Knights Templar symbolism in the present day, potentially handing over the "ownership" of such symbolism to extremist elements in its modern incarnation. People who protest that there is absolutely nothing wrong with this symbolism do so through either a state of blissful and welcome ignorance or disingenuity and I think it likely that Mr Littlejohn falls into the latter category.Veronica

Some find the Union Flag offensive

Exactly Antony and illustrative of the point I am making thank you. The Union Flag is not, nor ever likely to be widely considered to be offensive so long as we don’t allow far right groups to use it in a manner which is inimical to the values of the majority of Brits who are rightly proud to display it as a symbol of those values.

What makes your values regarding The Union Flag more considered and more valid than someones who's politics are more to the right ???

I equate extreme right views with intolerance and discriminatory behaviour Antony. I’m not a fan of extremist views whether it be at the right or left of the spectrum. I think your average Brit doesn’t subscribe to either extreme because they are more than cognisant of the destruction such extremism can cause. That’s why I am proud to be a Brit. Veronica

But you showed your intolerance against a "poor little rich kid" and her "Daddy" the other day , hence your choice of words to describe them and you showed great resentment towards their financial status ... So it begs the question when is it intolerance OK and when is it not ???

My resentment was aimed at the system that created such inequality Antony not the people who were able to benefit from it. Veronica

Yes that was obvious in your post Veronica "poor little rich kid" was obviously a dig at the system

Selective quote Antony which I accept sounds a bit snide. However you have conveniently ignored what else I said about her. Veronica

[Guest pelmetman]

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 8:44 PM

 

Maybe Austria could hold a second vote .... Maybe they got it wrong B-)

 

If Europe carry's on like this I may feel the need to rejoin the EU :D .........

 

 

[Bulletguy]

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:38 PM

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

Kurz is just a kid and the lesser of the two evils though it looks as though he's needing the FPOe to form a coalition so Strache is still in the framework unfortunately. A man with neo-Nazi connections he now dismisses as his past when “stupid, naive and young.”

 

Far from an 'escape route' as you naively put it, the horrendous history and aftermath from ww2 should serve as a reminder to all what happens when you fan the flame of seething hatred to wage maniacal genocide against a race of people your xenophobia despises so much. History repeating itself...If you let it. All that's changed is the race and faith. In this case Muslims and Islam. You've been foolish and naive enough to allow a motley bunch of a few fundamentalist nutjobs to lead you into believing they speak for all Muslims and the Islamic faith where in reality they are a scourge to 99.999% of decent Muslims.

 

All you and your 'little echo' puppet are doing is soaking up and spouting the tripe and garbage rhetoric IS want you to do! They want people like you and you are playing directly into their hands. Any dummy can twist verse from the Quran to suit their own wacko fundamentalist agenda. Same with our own holy book, the Bible no less. Hate preaching isn't the sole reserve of a few 'Muslims' as you persistently believe.......there are the same vile people flying under the flag of 'Christianity', mostly in America (where else) preaching racial hatred and murder of Muslims and homosexuals.

 

What does LGBT stand for? Pastor Steven Anderson will tell you screaming and thumping from his pulpit......LET GOD BURN THEM.

 

Nice 'Christian' people eh? All white skinned too. You'd love it out there. Anderson uses a gay agenda to demonise Islam. Oh and just to throw another ingredient into the mad mix, he preaches anti-Semitism. He praised the mass murder of 49 people in the Orlando night club shooting. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/stop-exploiting-lgbt-issues-to-demonize-islam-and-justify-anti-muslim-policies/

 

If you think jumping up and down over a minaret in your town centre, or that brown bloke with a beard whose just bought a neighbours house means IS have 'invaded' Huddersfield, then you are a bigger loon i had you for. As i asked you in the previous post, you want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme? But you couldn't give me an answer to that so i'm left assuming you obviously do.

 

Polish yer jackboots.

[antony1969]

Bulletguy - 2017-10-16 1:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:38 PM

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

Kurz is just a kid and the lesser of the two evils though it looks as though he's needing the FPOe to form a coalition so Strache is still in the framework unfortunately. A man with neo-Nazi connections he now dismisses as his past when “stupid, naive and young.”

 

Far from an 'escape route' as you naively put it, the horrendous history and aftermath from ww2 should serve as a reminder to all what happens when you fan the flame of seething hatred to wage maniacal genocide against a race of people your xenophobia despises so much. History repeating itself...If you let it. All that's changed is the race and faith. In this case Muslims and Islam. You've been foolish and naive enough to allow a motley bunch of a few fundamentalist nutjobs to lead you into believing they speak for all Muslims and the Islamic faith where in reality they are a scourge to 99.999% of decent Muslims.

 

All you and your 'little echo' puppet are doing is soaking up and spouting the tripe and garbage rhetoric IS want you to do! They want people like you and you are playing directly into their hands. Any dummy can twist verse from the Quran to suit their own wacko fundamentalist agenda. Same with our own holy book, the Bible no less. Hate preaching isn't the sole reserve of a few 'Muslims' as you persistently believe.......there are the same vile people flying under the flag of 'Christianity', mostly in America (where else) preaching racial hatred and murder of Muslims and homosexuals.

 

What does LGBT stand for? Pastor Steven Anderson will tell you screaming and thumping from his pulpit......LET GOD BURN THEM.

 

Nice 'Christian' people eh? All white skinned too. You'd love it out there. Anderson uses a gay agenda to demonise Islam. Oh and just to throw another ingredient into the mad mix, he preaches anti-Semitism. He praised the mass murder of 49 people in the Orlando night club shooting. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/stop-exploiting-lgbt-issues-to-demonize-islam-and-justify-anti-muslim-policies/

 

If you think jumping up and down over a minaret in your town centre, or that brown bloke with a beard whose just bought a neighbours house means IS have 'invaded' Huddersfield, then you are a bigger loon i had you for. As i asked you in the previous post, you want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme? But you couldn't give me an answer to that so i'm left assuming you obviously do.

 

Polish yer jackboots.

 

I didn't answer your Kristallnacht question as I thought it didn't deserve a response and less of the name calling might help to make your points more valid ... Above you mention 99.999% of decent Muslims ... Don't those 99.999% of decent Muslims read the or believe in The Quran then ??? ... Oh to be an Austrian today

[Violet1956]

Have taken some time to read what you have said Roger and to do some of my own research as I have to admit that my knowledge of EU co-operation in the military sphere is superficial. Your observations are extremely enlightening.

 

What I have learned however is it that Article 42.2 requires a unanimous vote of the European Council and neither the President of the council (Tusk) or the President of the Commission (Juncker) are allowed to vote. Seems to me if we'd stayed in we could have blocked its introduction.

 

42.2 reads

"The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements".

 

Or am I missing something?

 

Veronica

 

[RogerC]

Violet1956 - 2017-10-16 9:54 AMHave taken some time to read what you have said Roger and to do some of my own research as I have to admit that my knowledge of EU co-operation in the military sphere is superficial. Your observations are extremely enlightening. What I have learned however is it that Article 42.2 requires a unanimous vote of the European Council and neither the President of the council (Tusk) or the President of the Commission (Juncker) are allowed to vote. Seems to me if we'd stayed in we could have blocked its introduction. 42.2 reads"The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements".Or am I missing something?Veronica

No you are not missing something.  However it is an indication of just how the EU hierarchy are thinking.  To have even passed Article 42.2 demonstrates that there are those (in positions of great influence) who are desirous of such an undertaking............and that is scary.

There are those who claim that it is better to be in than out so we can influence direction.  You may consider that power to influence is not as strong as it once might have been.

It has all too recently been announced that the EU no longer requires unanimity in an ever increasing list of considerations.

The following might scare you and other remain voters.  It clearly shows the shadowy creep of EU domination:

'In 1986, the Single European Act meant all decisions on the implementing of the single market could be made by a qualified majority vote. The 1992 Maastricht Treaty introduced a number of non-economic policy areas to the EU allowing decisions on Education, Health and Environment to be made by qualified majority votes in the EU. The Treaty of Amsterdam in 1997 saw this also extend to areas of employment, equality and social policy, as well as to areas of joint foreign and security policy.

The Lisbon Treaty, which came into force in 2009, saw the most recent phase of integration, and saw the introduction of qualified majority voting in over 30 policy areas, effectively removing members veto powers in the majority of policy areas'.

That is scary...

[Guest pelmetman]

antony1969 - 2017-10-16 6:27 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-10-16 1:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:38 PM

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

Kurz is just a kid and the lesser of the two evils though it looks as though he's needing the FPOe to form a coalition so Strache is still in the framework unfortunately. A man with neo-Nazi connections he now dismisses as his past when “stupid, naive and young.”

 

Far from an 'escape route' as you naively put it, the horrendous history and aftermath from ww2 should serve as a reminder to all what happens when you fan the flame of seething hatred to wage maniacal genocide against a race of people your xenophobia despises so much. History repeating itself...If you let it. All that's changed is the race and faith. In this case Muslims and Islam. You've been foolish and naive enough to allow a motley bunch of a few fundamentalist nutjobs to lead you into believing they speak for all Muslims and the Islamic faith where in reality they are a scourge to 99.999% of decent Muslims.

 

All you and your 'little echo' puppet are doing is soaking up and spouting the tripe and garbage rhetoric IS want you to do! They want people like you and you are playing directly into their hands. Any dummy can twist verse from the Quran to suit their own wacko fundamentalist agenda. Same with our own holy book, the Bible no less. Hate preaching isn't the sole reserve of a few 'Muslims' as you persistently believe.......there are the same vile people flying under the flag of 'Christianity', mostly in America (where else) preaching racial hatred and murder of Muslims and homosexuals.

 

What does LGBT stand for? Pastor Steven Anderson will tell you screaming and thumping from his pulpit......LET GOD BURN THEM.

 

Nice 'Christian' people eh? All white skinned too. You'd love it out there. Anderson uses a gay agenda to demonise Islam. Oh and just to throw another ingredient into the mad mix, he preaches anti-Semitism. He praised the mass murder of 49 people in the Orlando night club shooting. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/stop-exploiting-lgbt-issues-to-demonize-islam-and-justify-anti-muslim-policies/

 

If you think jumping up and down over a minaret in your town centre, or that brown bloke with a beard whose just bought a neighbours house means IS have 'invaded' Huddersfield, then you are a bigger loon i had you for. As i asked you in the previous post, you want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme? But you couldn't give me an answer to that so i'm left assuming you obviously do.

 

Polish yer jackboots.

 

I didn't answer your Kristallnacht question as I thought it didn't deserve a response and less of the name calling might help to make your points more valid ... Above you mention 99.999% of decent Muslims ... Don't those 99.999% of decent Muslims read the or believe in The Quran then ??? ... Oh to be an Austrian today

 

99.999% decent Muslims? :-S ........How come 15% of them are in prison? ;-) ..........

 

 

[Violet1956]

RogerC - 2017-10-16 10:57 AM

Violet1956 - 2017-10-16 9:54 AMHave taken some time to read what you have said Roger and to do some of my own research as I have to admit that my knowledge of EU co-operation in the military sphere is superficial. Your observations are extremely enlightening. What I have learned however is it that Article 42.2 requires a unanimous vote of the European Council and neither the President of the council (Tusk) or the President of the Commission (Juncker) are allowed to vote. Seems to me if we'd stayed in we could have blocked its introduction. 42.2 reads"The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements".Or am I missing something?Veronica

No you are not missing something.  However it is an indication of just how the EU hierarchy are thinking.  To have even passed Article 42.2 demonstrates that there are those (in positions of great influence) who are desirous of such an undertaking............and that is scary.

There are those who claim that it is better to be in than out so we can influence direction.  You may consider that power to influence is not as strong as it once might have been.

It has all too recently been announced that the EU no longer requires unanimity in an ever increasing list of considerations.

The following might scare you and other remain voters.  It clearly shows the shadowy creep of EU domination:

'In 1986, the Single European Act meant all decisions on the implementing of the single market could be made by a qualified majority vote. The 1992 Maastricht Treaty introduced a number of non-economic policy areas to the EU allowing decisions on Education, Health and Environment to be made by qualified majority votes in the EU. The Treaty of Amsterdam in 1997 saw this also extend to areas of employment, equality and social policy, as well as to areas of joint foreign and security policy.

The Lisbon Treaty, which came into force in 2009, saw the most recent phase of integration, and saw the introduction of qualified majority voting in over 30 policy areas, effectively removing members veto powers in the majority of policy areas'.

That is scary...

Interesting, thanks again Roger. I can see why that of itself may have been enough of for the leave camp. From my point of view had any of those changes meant that we in the UK became vulnerable to having to accept changes wrought by a sufficient majority which went against our national interest then would be the time to consider the degree to which it was in our interests to leave. If there was something already that had been the subject of a Directive or policy which was against our national interest then fair enough. I don't recall anything of such a serious nature having taken place before the referendum but I know that it is a subjective view and not one which finds favour with Brexiteers. Veronica

[antony1969]

pelmetman - 2017-10-16 11:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-16 6:27 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-10-16 1:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:38 PM

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

Kurz is just a kid and the lesser of the two evils though it looks as though he's needing the FPOe to form a coalition so Strache is still in the framework unfortunately. A man with neo-Nazi connections he now dismisses as his past when “stupid, naive and young.”

 

Far from an 'escape route' as you naively put it, the horrendous history and aftermath from ww2 should serve as a reminder to all what happens when you fan the flame of seething hatred to wage maniacal genocide against a race of people your xenophobia despises so much. History repeating itself...If you let it. All that's changed is the race and faith. In this case Muslims and Islam. You've been foolish and naive enough to allow a motley bunch of a few fundamentalist nutjobs to lead you into believing they speak for all Muslims and the Islamic faith where in reality they are a scourge to 99.999% of decent Muslims.

 

All you and your 'little echo' puppet are doing is soaking up and spouting the tripe and garbage rhetoric IS want you to do! They want people like you and you are playing directly into their hands. Any dummy can twist verse from the Quran to suit their own wacko fundamentalist agenda. Same with our own holy book, the Bible no less. Hate preaching isn't the sole reserve of a few 'Muslims' as you persistently believe.......there are the same vile people flying under the flag of 'Christianity', mostly in America (where else) preaching racial hatred and murder of Muslims and homosexuals.

 

What does LGBT stand for? Pastor Steven Anderson will tell you screaming and thumping from his pulpit......LET GOD BURN THEM.

 

Nice 'Christian' people eh? All white skinned too. You'd love it out there. Anderson uses a gay agenda to demonise Islam. Oh and just to throw another ingredient into the mad mix, he preaches anti-Semitism. He praised the mass murder of 49 people in the Orlando night club shooting. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/stop-exploiting-lgbt-issues-to-demonize-islam-and-justify-anti-muslim-policies/

 

If you think jumping up and down over a minaret in your town centre, or that brown bloke with a beard whose just bought a neighbours house means IS have 'invaded' Huddersfield, then you are a bigger loon i had you for. As i asked you in the previous post, you want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme? But you couldn't give me an answer to that so i'm left assuming you obviously do.

 

Polish yer jackboots.

 

I didn't answer your Kristallnacht question as I thought it didn't deserve a response and less of the name calling might help to make your points more valid ... Above you mention 99.999% of decent Muslims ... Don't those 99.999% of decent Muslims read the or believe in The Quran then ??? ... Oh to be an Austrian today

 

99.999% decent Muslims? :-S ........How come 15% of them are in prison? ;-) ..........

 

 

Stitched up by the nasty fuzz Prolly >:-) .... 15% and rising year on year

[Violet1956]

pelmetman - 2017-10-16 11:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-16 6:27 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-10-16 1:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:38 PM

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

Kurz is just a kid and the lesser of the two evils though it looks as though he's needing the FPOe to form a coalition so Strache is still in the framework unfortunately. A man with neo-Nazi connections he now dismisses as his past when “stupid, naive and young.”

 

Far from an 'escape route' as you naively put it, the horrendous history and aftermath from ww2 should serve as a reminder to all what happens when you fan the flame of seething hatred to wage maniacal genocide against a race of people your xenophobia despises so much. History repeating itself...If you let it. All that's changed is the race and faith. In this case Muslims and Islam. You've been foolish and naive enough to allow a motley bunch of a few fundamentalist nutjobs to lead you into believing they speak for all Muslims and the Islamic faith where in reality they are a scourge to 99.999% of decent Muslims.

 

All you and your 'little echo' puppet are doing is soaking up and spouting the tripe and garbage rhetoric IS want you to do! They want people like you and you are playing directly into their hands. Any dummy can twist verse from the Quran to suit their own wacko fundamentalist agenda. Same with our own holy book, the Bible no less. Hate preaching isn't the sole reserve of a few 'Muslims' as you persistently believe.......there are the same vile people flying under the flag of 'Christianity', mostly in America (where else) preaching racial hatred and murder of Muslims and homosexuals.

 

What does LGBT stand for? Pastor Steven Anderson will tell you screaming and thumping from his pulpit......LET GOD BURN THEM.

 

Nice 'Christian' people eh? All white skinned too. You'd love it out there. Anderson uses a gay agenda to demonise Islam. Oh and just to throw another ingredient into the mad mix, he preaches anti-Semitism. He praised the mass murder of 49 people in the Orlando night club shooting. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/stop-exploiting-lgbt-issues-to-demonize-islam-and-justify-anti-muslim-policies/

 

If you think jumping up and down over a minaret in your town centre, or that brown bloke with a beard whose just bought a neighbours house means IS have 'invaded' Huddersfield, then you are a bigger loon i had you for. As i asked you in the previous post, you want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme? But you couldn't give me an answer to that so i'm left assuming you obviously do.

 

Polish yer jackboots.

 

I didn't answer your Kristallnacht question as I thought it didn't deserve a response and less of the name calling might help to make your points more valid ... Above you mention 99.999% of decent Muslims ... Don't those 99.999% of decent Muslims read the or believe in The Quran then ??? ... Oh to be an Austrian today

 

99.999% decent Muslims? :-S ........How come 15% of them are in prison? ;-) ..........

 

15% of the prison population declare themselves to be Muslim. It is not 15% of Muslims that are in prison as you state above Dave. The 15.2 % Muslim prison population as at December 2016 represents roughly 4% of the total Muslim population as identified at the last census in 2011.

 

 

Veronica

[antony1969]

Violet1956 - 2017-10-16 12:37 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-10-16 11:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-16 6:27 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-10-16 1:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:38 PM

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

Kurz is just a kid and the lesser of the two evils though it looks as though he's needing the FPOe to form a coalition so Strache is still in the framework unfortunately. A man with neo-Nazi connections he now dismisses as his past when “stupid, naive and young.”

 

Far from an 'escape route' as you naively put it, the horrendous history and aftermath from ww2 should serve as a reminder to all what happens when you fan the flame of seething hatred to wage maniacal genocide against a race of people your xenophobia despises so much. History repeating itself...If you let it. All that's changed is the race and faith. In this case Muslims and Islam. You've been foolish and naive enough to allow a motley bunch of a few fundamentalist nutjobs to lead you into believing they speak for all Muslims and the Islamic faith where in reality they are a scourge to 99.999% of decent Muslims.

 

All you and your 'little echo' puppet are doing is soaking up and spouting the tripe and garbage rhetoric IS want you to do! They want people like you and you are playing directly into their hands. Any dummy can twist verse from the Quran to suit their own wacko fundamentalist agenda. Same with our own holy book, the Bible no less. Hate preaching isn't the sole reserve of a few 'Muslims' as you persistently believe.......there are the same vile people flying under the flag of 'Christianity', mostly in America (where else) preaching racial hatred and murder of Muslims and homosexuals.

 

What does LGBT stand for? Pastor Steven Anderson will tell you screaming and thumping from his pulpit......LET GOD BURN THEM.

 

Nice 'Christian' people eh? All white skinned too. You'd love it out there. Anderson uses a gay agenda to demonise Islam. Oh and just to throw another ingredient into the mad mix, he preaches anti-Semitism. He praised the mass murder of 49 people in the Orlando night club shooting. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/stop-exploiting-lgbt-issues-to-demonize-islam-and-justify-anti-muslim-policies/

 

If you think jumping up and down over a minaret in your town centre, or that brown bloke with a beard whose just bought a neighbours house means IS have 'invaded' Huddersfield, then you are a bigger loon i had you for. As i asked you in the previous post, you want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme? But you couldn't give me an answer to that so i'm left assuming you obviously do.

 

Polish yer jackboots.

 

I didn't answer your Kristallnacht question as I thought it didn't deserve a response and less of the name calling might help to make your points more valid ... Above you mention 99.999% of decent Muslims ... Don't those 99.999% of decent Muslims read the or believe in The Quran then ??? ... Oh to be an Austrian today

 

99.999% decent Muslims? :-S ........How come 15% of them are in prison? ;-) ..........

 

15% of the prison population declare themselves to be Muslim. It is not 15% of Muslims that are in prison as you state above Dave. The 15.2 % Muslim prison population as at December 2016 represents roughly 4% of the total Muslim population as identified at the last census in 2011.

 

 

Veronica

 

Wonder what the percentage is for Muslims in the 20-40 year old age group

[Violet1956]

antony1969 - 2017-10-16 12:49 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2017-10-16 12:37 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-10-16 11:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-16 6:27 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-10-16 1:09 AM

 

antony1969 - 2017-10-15 7:38 PM

 

When the argument becomes weak then the escape route is WW2 or the build up to it ... Unfortunately for you the majority in Austria have gone for parties that favour controls on Islam and migration and I see nothing that would make me say they've made the wrong choice ... https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4689733/right-wing-austrian-politician-youngest-leader/

Kurz is just a kid and the lesser of the two evils though it looks as though he's needing the FPOe to form a coalition so Strache is still in the framework unfortunately. A man with neo-Nazi connections he now dismisses as his past when “stupid, naive and young.”

 

Far from an 'escape route' as you naively put it, the horrendous history and aftermath from ww2 should serve as a reminder to all what happens when you fan the flame of seething hatred to wage maniacal genocide against a race of people your xenophobia despises so much. History repeating itself...If you let it. All that's changed is the race and faith. In this case Muslims and Islam. You've been foolish and naive enough to allow a motley bunch of a few fundamentalist nutjobs to lead you into believing they speak for all Muslims and the Islamic faith where in reality they are a scourge to 99.999% of decent Muslims.

 

All you and your 'little echo' puppet are doing is soaking up and spouting the tripe and garbage rhetoric IS want you to do! They want people like you and you are playing directly into their hands. Any dummy can twist verse from the Quran to suit their own wacko fundamentalist agenda. Same with our own holy book, the Bible no less. Hate preaching isn't the sole reserve of a few 'Muslims' as you persistently believe.......there are the same vile people flying under the flag of 'Christianity', mostly in America (where else) preaching racial hatred and murder of Muslims and homosexuals.

 

What does LGBT stand for? Pastor Steven Anderson will tell you screaming and thumping from his pulpit......LET GOD BURN THEM.

 

Nice 'Christian' people eh? All white skinned too. You'd love it out there. Anderson uses a gay agenda to demonise Islam. Oh and just to throw another ingredient into the mad mix, he preaches anti-Semitism. He praised the mass murder of 49 people in the Orlando night club shooting. https://theintercept.com/2016/06/13/stop-exploiting-lgbt-issues-to-demonize-islam-and-justify-anti-muslim-policies/

 

If you think jumping up and down over a minaret in your town centre, or that brown bloke with a beard whose just bought a neighbours house means IS have 'invaded' Huddersfield, then you are a bigger loon i had you for. As i asked you in the previous post, you want another Kristallnacht, another Stangl, another T4 programme? But you couldn't give me an answer to that so i'm left assuming you obviously do.

 

Polish yer jackboots.

 

I didn't answer your Kristallnacht question as I thought it didn't deserve a response and less of the name calling might help to make your points more valid ... Above you mention 99.999% of decent Muslims ... Don't those 99.999% of decent Muslims read the or believe in The Quran then ??? ... Oh to be an Austrian today

 

99.999% decent Muslims? :-S ........How come 15% of them are in prison? ;-) ..........

 

15% of the prison population declare themselves to be Muslim. It is not 15% of Muslims that are in prison as you state above Dave. The 15.2 % Muslim prison population as at December 2016 represents roughly 4% of the total Muslim population as identified at the last census in 2011.

 

 

Veronica

 

Wonder what the percentage is for Muslims in the 20-40 year old age group

 

What significance do you think that figure likely to have Dave?

 

By my calculation from the December 2016 stats 62% of all prisoners came within the 21 -39 age groups. There doesn't seem to be any breakdown of percentages by age group and religion, well I haven't found any as yet.

 

Veronica

[Guest pelmetman]

Violet1956 - 2017-10-16 12:37 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-10-16 11:09 AM

 

 

99.999% decent Muslims? :-S ........How come 15% of them are in prison? ;-) ..........

 

15% of the prison population declare themselves to be Muslim. It is not 15% of Muslims that are in prison as you state above Dave. The 15.2 % Muslim prison population as at December 2016 represents roughly 4% of the total Muslim population as identified at the last census in 2011.

 

 

Veronica

 

To be more exact 4.8% of our population fill 15.2% of our prisons ;-) .........

 

Which indicates to me that's Bullets assertion that 99.999% of Muslims are decent is a PC myth *-) .......

 

I suspect that with the recent flurry of grooming gangs being convicted the 15.2% is probably a underestimate :-| .......

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2017-10-16 1:09 AM

 

Any dummy can twist verse from the Quran to suit their own wacko fundamentalist agenda. Same with our own holy book, the Bible no less. .

 

Really? perhaps you can highlight some verses from the bible that are similar in content to this lot? ;-) .......

 

 

A Kafir is hated.

“They who dispute the signs of Allah without authority having reached them are greatly hated by Allah and the believers. So Allah seals up every arrogant, disdainful heart” (Surah 40:35).

 

A Kafir can be enslaved.

“Muhammed then said, ‘Saed, give these people [the Jews of Medina] your verdict.’ Saed replied, ‘Their soldiers should be beheaded and their women and children should become slaves.’ Mohammed, pleased with the verdict, said, ‘You have made a ruling that Allah or a king would approve of’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith 5,58,148).

 

A Kafir can be mocked.

“On that day the faithful will mock the Kafirs, while they sit on bridal couches and watch them. Should not the Kafirs be paid back for what they did?” (Surah 83:34).

 

A Kafir can be schemed against.

“They plot and scheme against you [Muhammed], and I [Allah] plot and scheme against them. Therefore, deal calmly with the Kafirs and leave them alone for awhile” (Surah 86:15).

 

A Kafir can be deceived.

“Mohammed asked, ‘Who will kill Ka’b, the enemy of Allah and Mohammed? Bin Maslama rose and responded, ‘O Mohammed! Would it please you if I killed him?’ Mohammed answered, ‘Yes.’ Bin Maslama then said, ‘Give me permission to deceive him with lies so that my plan will succeed.’ Mohammed replied, ‘You may speak falsely to him’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith 5,59,369).

 

A Kafir can be terrorized.

“Then your Lord spoke to His angels and said, ‘I will be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the Kafirs’ hearts, cut off their heads and even the tips of their fingers” (Surah 8:12).

 

A Kafir can be beheaded.

“When you encounter the Kafirs on the battlefield, cut off their heads until you have thoroughly defeated them and then take the prisoners and tie them up firmly” (Surah 47:4).

 

A Kafir can be annihilated.

“So the Kafirs were annihilated. All praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds!” (Surah 6:45).

 

A Kafir can be killed.

“If they do not keep away from you or offer you peace or withdraw their hostilities, then seize them and kill them wherever they are. We give you complete authority over them” (Surah 4:91).

 

A Kafir can be crucified and his hands and feet hacked off.

“The only reward for those who war against Allah and His messengers and strive to commit mischief on the earth is that they will be slain or crucified, have their alternate hands and feet cut off, or be banished from the land. This will be their disgrace in this world, and a great torment shall be theirs in the next except those who repent before you overpower them. Know that Allah is forgiving and merciful” (Surah 5:33).

 

A Kafir can be made war on and humiliated.

“Make war on those who have received the Scriptures but do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day. They do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden. The Christians and Jews do not follow the religion of truth until they submit and pay the poll tax [jizya], and they are humiliated” (Surah 9:29).

 

A Kafir cannot be befriended.

“Believers should not take Kafirs as friends in preference to other believers. Those who do this will have none of Allah’s protection and will only have themselves as guards. Allah warns you to fear Him for all will return to Him” (Surah 3:28).

 

A Kafir is not to be treated with kindness.

“Oh, you who believe, do not take My enemy and yours for friends by showing them kindness” (Surah 60:1).

 

Looks like they've got you well and truly deceived >:-) ........

 

 

[Violet1956]

pelmetman - 2017-10-16 1:37 PM

 

Violet1956 - 2017-10-16 12:37 PM

 

pelmetman - 2017-10-16 11:09 AM

 

 

99.999% decent Muslims? :-S ........How come 15% of them are in prison? ;-) ..........

 

15% of the prison population declare themselves to be Muslim. It is not 15% of Muslims that are in prison as you state above Dave. The 15.2 % Muslim prison population as at December 2016 represents roughly 4% of the total Muslim population as identified at the last census in 2011.

 

 

Veronica

 

To be more exact 4.8% of our population fill 15.2% of our prisons ;-) .........

 

Which indicates to me that's Bullets assertion that 99.999% of Muslims are decent is a PC myth *-) .......

 

I suspect that with the recent flurry of grooming gangs being convicted the 15.2% is probably a underestimate :-| .......

 

I think we both know that 99.999% is used in common parlance to represent a significant majority and not as an exact measure. It is not a myth to say that a significant majority i.e. 95-96% of Muslims are not in prison.

 

Nevertheless, there's a difficulty in considering prisoner statistics as providing a complete picture of the incidence of criminality in any particular group. It may be that the overall offending rates of any particular group are higher or lower than the prison statistics show which could either make Bullet's statement closer to or further from the truth.

 

I am not saying there is no need for concern about the Muslim prisoner statistics or the seriousness of some of the offences some Muslims have committed. I just wish you would accept that on occasion your interpretation of statistics is questionable Dave.

 

Veronica

[Guest pelmetman]

Violet1956 - 2017-10-16 2:22 PM

I just wish you would accept that on occasion your interpretation of statistics is questionable Dave.

 

Veronica

 

How can one misinterpret the fact that 4.8% of our population make up 15.2% of our prison population? :-S .........

[Violet1956]

pelmetman - 2017-10-16 2:15 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2017-10-16 1:09 AM

 

Any dummy can twist verse from the Quran to suit their own wacko fundamentalist agenda. Same with our own holy book, the Bible no less. .

 

Really? perhaps you can highlight some verses from the bible that are similar in content to this lot? ;-) .......

 

 

A Kafir is hated.

“They who dispute the signs of Allah without authority having reached them are greatly hated by Allah and the believers. So Allah seals up every arrogant, disdainful heart” (Surah 40:35).

 

A Kafir can be enslaved.

“Muhammed then said, ‘Saed, give these people [the Jews of Medina] your verdict.’ Saed replied, ‘Their soldiers should be beheaded and their women and children should become slaves.’ Mohammed, pleased with the verdict, said, ‘You have made a ruling that Allah or a king would approve of’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith 5,58,148).

 

A Kafir can be mocked.

“On that day the faithful will mock the Kafirs, while they sit on bridal couches and watch them. Should not the Kafirs be paid back for what they did?” (Surah 83:34).

 

A Kafir can be schemed against.

“They plot and scheme against you [Muhammed], and I [Allah] plot and scheme against them. Therefore, deal calmly with the Kafirs and leave them alone for awhile” (Surah 86:15).

 

A Kafir can be deceived.

“Mohammed asked, ‘Who will kill Ka’b, the enemy of Allah and Mohammed? Bin Maslama rose and responded, ‘O Mohammed! Would it please you if I killed him?’ Mohammed answered, ‘Yes.’ Bin Maslama then said, ‘Give me permission to deceive him with lies so that my plan will succeed.’ Mohammed replied, ‘You may speak falsely to him’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith 5,59,369).

 

A Kafir can be terrorized.

“Then your Lord spoke to His angels and said, ‘I will be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the Kafirs’ hearts, cut off their heads and even the tips of their fingers” (Surah 8:12).

 

A Kafir can be beheaded.

“When you encounter the Kafirs on the battlefield, cut off their heads until you have thoroughly defeated them and then take the prisoners and tie them up firmly” (Surah 47:4).

 

A Kafir can be annihilated.

“So the Kafirs were annihilated. All praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds!” (Surah 6:45).

 

A Kafir can be killed.

“If they do not keep away from you or offer you peace or withdraw their hostilities, then seize them and kill them wherever they are. We give you complete authority over them” (Surah 4:91).

 

A Kafir can be crucified and his hands and feet hacked off.

“The only reward for those who war against Allah and His messengers and strive to commit mischief on the earth is that they will be slain or crucified, have their alternate hands and feet cut off, or be banished from the land. This will be their disgrace in this world, and a great torment shall be theirs in the next except those who repent before you overpower them. Know that Allah is forgiving and merciful” (Surah 5:33).

 

A Kafir can be made war on and humiliated.

“Make war on those who have received the Scriptures but do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day. They do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden. The Christians and Jews do not follow the religion of truth until they submit and pay the poll tax [jizya], and they are humiliated” (Surah 9:29).

 

A Kafir cannot be befriended.

“Believers should not take Kafirs as friends in preference to other believers. Those who do this will have none of Allah’s protection and will only have themselves as guards. Allah warns you to fear Him for all will return to Him” (Surah 3:28).

 

A Kafir is not to be treated with kindness.

“Oh, you who believe, do not take My enemy and yours for friends by showing them kindness” (Surah 60:1).

 

Looks like they've got you well and truly deceived >:-) ........

 

Suggest you read this link. There's a quiz on which of the exhortations to commit violence come from either the Bible or the Koran. Tell us your score when you've done it.

 

 

https://www.alternet.org/30-most-violent-exhortations-bible-torah-and-quran

 

Veronica

[RogerC]

Violet1956 - 2017-10-16 11:23 AM

RogerC - 2017-10-16 10:57 AM

Violet1956 - 2017-10-16 9:54 AMHave taken some time to read what you have said Roger and to do some of my own research as I have to admit that my knowledge of EU co-operation in the military sphere is superficial. Your observations are extremely enlightening. What I have learned however is it that Article 42.2 requires a unanimous vote of the European Council and neither the President of the council (Tusk) or the President of the Commission (Juncker) are allowed to vote. Seems to me if we'd stayed in we could have blocked its introduction. 42.2 reads"The common security and defence policy shall include the progressive framing of a common Union defence policy. This will lead to a common defence, when the European Council, acting unanimously, so decides. It shall in that case recommend to the Member States the adoption of such a decision in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements".Or am I missing something?Veronica

No you are not missing something.  However it is an indication of just how the EU hierarchy are thinking.  To have even passed Article 42.2 demonstrates that there are those (in positions of great influence) who are desirous of such an undertaking............and that is scary.

There are those who claim that it is better to be in than out so we can influence direction.  You may consider that power to influence is not as strong as it once might have been.

It has all too recently been announced that the EU no longer requires unanimity in an ever increasing list of considerations.

The following might scare you and other remain voters.  It clearly shows the shadowy creep of EU domination:

'In 1986, the Single European Act meant all decisions on the implementing of the single market could be made by a qualified majority vote. The 1992 Maastricht Treaty introduced a number of non-economic policy areas to the EU allowing decisions on Education, Health and Environment to be made by qualified majority votes in the EU. The Treaty of Amsterdam in 1997 saw this also extend to areas of employment, equality and social policy, as well as to areas of joint foreign and security policy.

The Lisbon Treaty, which came into force in 2009, saw the most recent phase of integration, and saw the introduction of qualified majority voting in over 30 policy areas, effectively removing members veto powers in the majority of policy areas'.

That is scary...

Interesting, thanks again Roger. I can see why that of itself may have been enough of for the leave camp. From my point of view had any of those changes meant that we in the UK became vulnerable to having to accept changes wrought by a sufficient majority which went against our national interest then would be the time to consider the degree to which it was in our interests to leave. If there was something already that had been the subject of a Directive or policy which was against our national interest then fair enough. I don't recall anything of such a serious nature having taken place before the referendum but I know that it is a subjective view and not one which finds favour with Brexiteers. Veronica

For me the fact that France still holds sway over the Brussels/Strasbourg travesty and the associated criminal waste of our money is sufficient to convince me that the 'veto' is not balanced in it's distribution or used in the best interests of those the bureaucracy is supposed to serve.  Given that there now exists an even greater number of voting situations whereby a 'qualified' majority holds sway why is France permitted to block all attempts to put a stop to this indefensible practice?

One rule for France/Germany...and another for the 'minions' maybe?