Brian Kirby Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 StuartO - 2017-12-28 4:11 PM....................I can't talk to my local garage about fitting until after the holiday but labour seems to be around £500 on an A Class, which is more difficult to do that a coachbuilt, although I don'treally understand why yet..................... It is usually because access to the top McPherson strut mounting bolts from the engine bay is a lot worse than on a standard cab unit. Depending on the particular A Class cab end adaptations, access to the front suspension from below, within the wheel arch, may also be more difficult. The result is that additional time is required for removing/re-fitting the items that block working access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Stuart The attached photo is of a complete front strut off an X230 Ducato. An X244’s strut will be near enough the same. The cost of a strut and of a spring will vary significantly and you should expect the asking-prices from a Fiat agent to be much higher than if you bought ‘pattern’ parts. As shown in the 2nd attached file, each strut has a top-mount with a bearing and the damper-rod carries a bump-stop and cover (gaiter). Whether the top-mount, bearing, bump-stop and/or gaiter could be transferred from your existing strut to the replacement would depend on the condition of the original parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andytw Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 StuartO - 2017-12-23 4:56 PM but the shock absorption has never seemed to cope well with potholes, so you get more of a bang than you should. I'll look into better shock absorbers whilst I'm at it. Front tyre pressure inflated too hard would have similar effect. Having weighed my front and rear axles my front tyre pressures are now at Continentals rec figure of 50 psi rather than 72 psi as indicated on the Fiat chassis plate. That made a big difference to my pot hole handling and noise. You mentioned labour cost of £500, this sounds a lot to me. I would have a look under the dash to locate the tops of the struts and if you can see them then this should be a straightforward job. I did my own on a Pilote A class. I am not a mechanic just a 'competent' DIY-er. I would have thought maybe an hour and half per side for a garage, perhaps 2, unless the tops of the struts are nowhere to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Might get a better quote from Iveco. Nick Fisher at euroserv might be able to help on that one, and I would get new shock's also. My local garage now are saying that, suspension, wheel bearings and exhaust issues are his bread and butter due to the state of the roads. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 This video-clip shows what’s involved in replacing a front strut and top-mount on a Ducato-based motorhome with 2.8jtd motor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdQQmIEuPzE The original spring was transferred to the new strut as was the bump-stop/‘gaiter’. A new top-mount would cost around £20 and a bump-stop ‘kit’ around £15. I believe Stuart’s 2006 Ducato X244-based Hymer A-Class motorhome has the 2.8jtd motor, but I don’t know which Hymer B-class model he owns (and I ain’t going to search through 3000+ postings in the hope of finding out...) or whether it is built on a Ducato ‘light’ or ‘maxi’ chassis. The Hymer data-plate should indicate the vehicle’s maximum front-axle loading and this will need to be borne in mind if new struts are to be fitted. There is the possibility that Hymer fitted non-standard springs when the motorhome was built, but I suspect that was not the case because Stuart mentioned here http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Progressive-springs-worth-spending-money-on-/36417/ that, after the other spring broke, his local garage replaced it quickly using "the same sort of standard spring”. As Stuart’s garage was able to source an appropriate replacement spring easily when the first spring broke, they should be able to do the same now. The strut with the broken spring would need to be removed to replace the spring, but if there’s nothing otherwise wrong with that strut (or with the other one) just replacing the broken spring on a like-for-like basis would be the cheapest and simplest approach. As Stuart has discovered (presumably via internet searching) the asking-prices for front struts and springs vary significantly - and this will be for components marketed to directly replace the OEM struts/springs, not for struts/springs that MIGHT provide improved performance. It’s reasonable to think that junking the complete strut/spring assembly on both sides of Stuart’s 2006 Hymer should improve its front-end ride quality, but whether it’s worth paying to test that assumption is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 29, 2017 Author Share Posted December 29, 2017 The weight label on my 2006 Hymer B674 says the limit on the front axle is 1850kg, so I suspect it was built with a standard Fiat Ducato front suspension. My local garage are looking into whether they want to do the job of replacing both springs with uprated ones, having found my MH a bit heavier than their usual work. The owner suggested sourcing heavier springs and mentioned that the component which forms the top seat for the spring on McPherson struts is a bearing which can sieze and that can cause the spring to break, so those top bearings probably deserve replacing too. I haven't found any reviews of VB versus Goldsmitt heavy duty springs yet, has anyone seen anything like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted December 29, 2017 Author Share Posted December 29, 2017 This VB videoclip shows the installation of an upgrade coil spring on to a modern Fiat-based Hymer "> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 2, 2018 Author Share Posted January 2, 2018 My MH has been recovered to Full Circle Enterprises of Banaham,Norfolk, who are dealers for VB Air Suspension uprated coil springs. They quoted £682 incVAT to fit a pair of Heavy VB Springs, which is less than I expected. They will also check the dampers and replace those if necessary. They are substantial firm which does mechanical and bodywork repairs on caravans and motorhomes as well as coaches and buses, so I feel confident that they know what they are doing and they've obviously done this job on Fuat-based A Class MHs before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Very simple you have a L and H version on the ducato. The best you can fit is alko ACS in the two versions. They are always a compromise on your front axle depending on actual load. Or go to air struts. The dome bearing on top is a pain in case of motorhomes. The Mc- Pherson strut is worldfamous and the family pattern the longest standing. They still study to improve it. As derek explained the compression of the spring can kill you. Alko replaces one strut in half an hour on a class integral motorhome.Be aware that working on suspension should be done by profs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 The garage finally got the replacement VB springs and started the job - which turn out to be more complicated. The chrome on the damper pistons is worn off and so the struts need replacing, the broken spring damaged the tyre wall and a rubber brake pipe, so extra costs are piling up. Replacement Fiat Struts are £300 each and there is a wait of two weeks to get them from Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Do you HAVE to have the ‘genuine’ Fiat article? These struts supposedly should fit https://coastalmotorhomes.co.uk/fiat-ducato-peugeot-boxer-citroen-relay-front-gas-shocks-absorber-struts-1800kg.html and there are potentially-suitable Bilstein-branded struts advertised here https://tinyurl.com/yd75dl84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 The garage are also looking into non-Fiat struts; apparently there is some uncertainty about whether the struts available in UK will fit a LHD vehicle. Does anyone know of any information about the reliability of aftermarket struts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 It’s a fair question, though there are several ‘after-market’ front struts advertised for Ducato X244 models and at significantly different prices (see webpages here) https://www.bestpartstore.co.uk/fiat/ducato-box-244/16651/10221-shock-absorber?s=2 It’s even possible that one of these (the Magneti Marelli-branded strut perhaps) is what Fiat would have fitted as original equipment. Nick Fisher may be able to comment. (I would have thought that the same struts would have been used on LHD and RHD chassis, but that definitely needs confirming via the Fiat parts listing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 Derek Uzzell - 2018-01-17 2:58 AMIt’s a fair question, though there are several ‘after-market’ front struts advertised for Ducato X244 models and at significantly different prices (see webpages here)https://www.bestpartstore.co.uk/fiat/ducato-box-244/16651/10221-shock-absorber?s=2It’s even possible that one of these (the Magneti Marelli-branded strut perhaps) is what Fiat would have fitted as original equipment.Nick Fisher may be able to comment.(I would have thought that the same struts would have been used on LHD and RHD chassis, but that definitely needs confirming via the Fiat parts listing.) I also find it difficult to believe that there are differences in struts between RHD and LHD; it may be that the stockist of aftermarket struts in UK hasn't supplied for a LHD vehicle before and doesn't have positive confirmation by part number. Hopefully the garage will sort that out. I have seen 1800kg quoted as the rating for one sort of aftermarket strut whereas my vehicle's front axle is rated at 1850kg so is there a different spec? As you say, a word from Nick Euroserve would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 StuartO - 2018-01-16 2:24 PM As you say, a word from Nick Euroserve would be helpful. Send him an email, his address is in his profile. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 Keithl - 2018-01-17 5:31 AMStuartO - 2018-01-16 2:24 PMAs you say, a word from Nick Euroserve would be helpful.Send him an email, his address is in his profile.Keith. Done, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 StuartO - 2018-01-16 2:24 PM ...I also find it difficult to believe that there are differences in struts between RHD and LHD... I’ve compared the information on a UK and a French website that market the same makes of front strut appropriate for a Ducato X244 https://www.auto-doc.fr/pieces-detachees/amortisseurs-10221/fiat/ducato/ducato-autobus-autocar-244-z/16655-2-8-jtd and the part numbers listed are the same on both websites - so I don’t think your Hymer being LHD should matter as far as struts are concerned. I believe you’ll find that all Ducato X244 chassis-cab ‘maxi’ variants (Al-Ko chassis or not) had a maximum front-axle weight of 1850kg, but a Fiat agent provided with your motorhome’s VIN number should be able to identify the Fiat OEM part-numbers for the front struts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 That's good news (no difference RHD/LHD) so that's one potentialcomplic Italy)and the uncertainty was coming from the source of non-Fiat struts. Clearly if the Fiat parts are identical then non-Fiat parts listed by a UK supplier (even if theydon't know there's no difference) will fit my LHD vehicle. Just the issue of the axle loading then; I've mentioned the need to check this to the guy at the garage and he has already ordered the non-Fiat parts and will check them once they arrive. He doesn't fancy my MH (which has been dismantled) being stuck on his ramp for two weeks while Fiat parts arrive! As with the LHD/RHD issue, I can't see Fiat designing different struts with marginally different ratings for ducatto variants; I think they are all likely to be the same for the X244 - and may be the same as either earlier or later or both versions of the Ducatto too. We'll get there in the end. Happily this is not a time when I would be using the MH anyway so even if it's another couple of weeks or more there's no problem for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 I went to have a look at the MH today, dismantled on the ramp, and took a couple of pictures. One shows the broken spring standing next to the replacement VB Spring - note the difference in wire thickness! The second one shows the extent to which they have to dismantle the lower dashboard to get at the suspension top mounting nuts. Changing coil springs on a MH is not for the faint hearted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Hello folks, Sorry i am a bit late to the party; still with flu but back at work today. When i first saw this thread a while back, it looked like there was plenty of good advice being offered and the mention of non standard struts and springs was an alien concept to me; so i could offer little help. I saw a message from Stuart today and replied but it seems that it had already become clear that there is no difference between LHD and RHD components. From a strictly Fiat 'ex-factory' perspective there are only really two versions of front suspension be it for X244 or X250 these are light and heavy. 15" wheels or 16" wheels. There are versions of each that are especially for 'dusty areas' but you are unlikely to ever see a vehicle so equipped. If a converter has substituted any components during the build; i would have no information or experience of that. As a rule, i reckon that if a spring breaks within the first 2 or 3 years of ownership and you can identify an incident such as a major pothole or kerb then i would be perfectly happy to replace one spring with an OE item but after a few years and if you don't recall what happened; two would be advisable. It's obviously twice as much labour but two after-market springs will cost less than one OE item anyway. I agree with an earlier comment in that after market springs seem to be of a sturdier build than the OE items. Springs very rarely break and while it is normally due to an impact, the bearings between the top mount and the strut can become seized and this will put a lot of strain on the spring. Listen out for creaking noises when turning the wheel and any clonking that you can feel in the cab must be investigated. The bearings are very cheap (part of the problem) and are a bit of a moisture trap that you can't do any preventative maintenance on. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 Summary Post: I collected the MH today from the repairers. The front of the MH rides about 2" higher, so it now looks level rather than nose down. It feels more robust under way and less prone to feeling the potholes. So far so good. The bill came to £1200 odd, which included replacement of a rubber brake hose (damaged by the broken coil end) and replacement aftermarket struts as well as new, upgraded "heavy" VB coilsprings on both sides. The price for the coils springs alone (fitted) was supposed to be under £700 inc VAT, so the cost climbed quite a bit. I'll have the check the headlight alignment befire the MH goes in for its MOT next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Hopefully you are back on the road whit that dutch bleu vb spring.And what kind of shock absorbers to cope whit? in their spring travel. Going up in front drive height means nothing. A DIY job on suspension is not allowed on the continent. Or have i miss here seeing your pictures.Did you have a PDF from Vb how to do it? on your X244. Alko fits their ACS complte front struts in 4 hours, dixit my partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 I didn't attempt this job myself; it was done by an authorised VB dealer. So far so good, I'm back on the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Nice to hear this. Maybe to late but they have also such nice springs for your rear axle in ad to the std leaf and bump configuration. It is common now on the rear for fiat light to upgrade to 3850 kg. You will be surprised to see such a sprig fitted in showrooms. Even alko use it on their swing arm axles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.