AndyLou Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Can I start my engine and let it run on tick over to recharge my batteries? Van is a Fiat Ducatto 2005. It seems too easy for this to work. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Yes, but it may take a long time, especially the leisure batteries whose charge rate is severely limited by the 12 volt system and cabling! I used to run ours at fast tickover - about 1500 rpm at which I found the charge voltage, and I rightly or wrongly assumed, the current to be better than at tickover and the lowest rpm at which a decent charge was forthcoming, with relatively little to be gained by higher revs. I am happy to be corrected if my assumptions were incorrect, and I still preferred to take the van for a proper run to keep the transmission, brakes, steering, suspension etc. working freely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veletron Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Hi Idling an engine is illegal in the UK and attracts a fixed penalty should a copper bother to notice. Suggest upgrading battery capacity and then adding solar such that capacity suits needs, or use an EHU on a site. Idling wont do the engine any good, and produces loads of pollution in a fixed area. Folks do it on the school run filling their's and others kids with crud. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 veletron - 2018-01-11 12:45 PM Hi Idling an engine is illegal in the UK and attracts a fixed penalty should a copper bother to notice. It's not as such, but leaving a vehicle unattended with the engine running or the parking brake not set is an offence. Excessive idling (running the engine whilst not under load) isn't good for the engine though. With newer engines and modern low viscosity oils designed to decrease emissions and improve fuel consumption, it can be very bad for the engine. A number of emergency vehicles running on low viscosity, extended drain interval oils have suffered mechanical failures requiring replacement engines. The manufacturer's response following investigation was that the specified oil and service intervals were unsuitable for vehicles which spent periods of time idling at incident scenes. They issued a service bulletin requiring use of a higher viscosity oil and 6000 mile oil changes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Deneb - 2018-01-11 1:12 PM veletron - 2018-01-11 12:45 PM Hi Idling an engine is illegal in the UK and attracts a fixed penalty should a copper bother to notice. It's not as such, but leaving a vehicle unattended with the engine running or the parking brake not set is an offence. Sorry but it is! "Vehicle idling is an offence against the Road Traffic (Vehicle Emissions) (Fixed Penalty) (England) Regulations 2002. The law states that is an offence to idle your engine unnecessarily when stationary. If you fail to turn your engine off after being spoken to you may be issued with a fixed penalty notice of £20." from second hit on Google... http://www.dudley.gov.uk/business/environmental-health/pollution-control/air-quality/vehicle-air-pollution/ And there are a lot more to back it up! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veletron Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 According this this, it is illegal whether or not you are in the vehicle unless it it stopped for traffic lights, roadworks, traffic jam, or it being used to defrost a windscreen. https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/idling/ Covered by the Road Traffic Act (2002), Vehicle emissions. There is separate law for Scotland dated 2003. Scotland: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2003/212/made England/Wales: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/1808/contents/made No mention of 'unattended vehicle', and interestingly no exemption for taxis (who are the worst offenders IMHO). Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 If you are that bothered by the whole political hot potato of emmissions and falsifications and political expedients to engineering problems why buy a van in the first place? Why not just stick to answering the question posed instead of point scoring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I don't see any point scoring going on. It is pertinent to the OP's question. My apologies chaps, you are both quite correct. The emissions legislation is a new one on me. I was referring to the offence commonly known as "Quitting" under Reg 107 of the Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regs 1986 (and previous iterations of that legislation). It was bread & butter stuff for me as a young probationer PC back in the 70s. You could always find a few offenders in the vicinity of a newsagents early in the morning! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Drew Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Basically on tickover the voltage output and amps from the alternator will be quite low so it will take a long time to put any appreciable amount of charge into your leisure battery, bearing in mind the alternator will give priority to the engine battery and as a rough guide we always say it takes about 20 minuets running to put back into a battery what starting takes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Ice cream men run their engines all the time and it doesn't seem to do them any harm. (Usually just to stir the ice cream which would otherwise go too hard to pump like that in supermarket bought tubs.) Whether it will charge your batteries much depends on the set up. Alternators tended to be less powerful on older vehicles, and the cabling to leisure batteries thin, creating resistance and lowering the charge rate. So I guess you would have to run the engine a long time to charge the batteries on a 2005 motorhome. Wheras my leisure batteries charge rapidly on tickover, because the X2/50 van has 160 amp alternator, and I have wired the leisure batteries in directly with short thick (25mm2) cable. Also no fuses to offer resistance as the cabling is triple insulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Just to be clear in a normal (non active) setup the alternator wont 'give' priority to the engine battery. However it is the fact that usually the engine battery is connected to the alternator via thicker (greater cross sectional area) and shorter cables so the engine battery gets more charging current than the leisure battery(s) which are usually at the end of a thinner and longer length of cable which introduces greater resistance into the circuit which limits the current that can be passed into them. I personally fuse every circuit no matter how good the insulation or great the cross sectional area of the core, i have seen a catastrophic internal failure of a battery and as a result i use 50 or 100 Amp fuses in quality holders to protect such items. one fuse at each end of the cable because the feed is two way (with a battery at both ends) Just to answer the OP in our transit based MH with two LFD 90s at tick over the maximum charge registered has been 15 Amps so as this rapidly drops it would take a lot of idling to put any meaningful charge into the batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Dr Dave - 2018-01-11 4:19 PM it is the fact that usually the engine battery is connected to the alternator via thicker (greater cross sectional area) and shorter cables so the engine battery gets more charging current than the leisure battery(s) which are usually at the end of a thinner and longer length of cable which introduces greater resistance into the circuit which limits the current that can be passed into them. . Exactly. This website has a good calculator to work out voltage drop with the long thin cables typically supplying the leisure battery in a motorhome. https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/cable-sizing-selection.html Half a volt drop would be of no consequence in most cases, but it has a big effect on the charge rate. Yes omitting the fuses is a risk that motorhome manufacturers can't take. But I have minimised the risk and voltage drop by having the leisure batteries (under the driver's seat) close to the main batteries. Using double insulated 25mm welding cable, running through plastic hose for an extra layer of insulation wherever it touches metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 The law states it is an offence to unnecessary idle the engine, in this case the engine is being used to charge the batteries, so it becomes a necessary use of engine. Not an ideal situation, and should only really be a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 John52 - 2018-01-11 3:10 PM Ice cream men run their engines all the time and it doesn't seem to do them any harm. They seem to be a dying breed round here, but the one's I have seen are all running pre DPF vans. Continuously idling a van with a DPF is not going to do much for the filter. Depending on the way it is driven at other times it may of course burn off the excess particulates, but the extra ash will eventually lead to clogging sooner than would otherwise happen. I have seen the technical report on engine failures and the resulting service bulletin from a premium German vehicle manufacturer, aimed at emergency vehicle fleet managers. At the risk of irritating Tracker again, I know this is not completely pertinent to the physics of recharging a battery from the alternator whilst idling, but it is certainly something I think any Eu 5+ or 6 van owners ought to consider if they are thinking of idling their van engines for extended periods, whatever the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 colin - 2018-01-12 11:25 AM The law states it is an offence to unnecessary idle the engine, in this case the engine is being used to charge the batteries, so it becomes a necessary use of engine. Not an ideal situation, and should only really be a last resort. Doesn't the law only apply to the public highway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Deneb - 2018-01-12 11:28 AM At the risk of irritating Tracker again, Sensible constructive helpful and informative, or even nonsensical but humourous, posts never offend me Deneb and any criticism aimed was not aimed at you and I thank you for the information supplied which as I see it is yet another reason not to buy a modern diesel engined van! I shudder to think how the long term maintenance and repair costs of Euro 5 and 6 engines will pan out compared to the old Euro 4 and earlier petrol engined vans? If anyone is really offended by the emmissions caused by diesels the answer is pretty obvious - get yourself a skateboard but don't fart when you use it! Compared to the crud thrown out by the world's shipping and airlines it seems somehow wrong to me to demonise diesel private vehicles - maybe it is because they are easier to tax being land bound? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Deneb - 2018-01-12 11:28 AM John52 - 2018-01-11 3:10 PM Ice cream men run their engines all the time and it doesn't seem to do them any harm. They seem to be a dying breed round here, but the one's I have seen are all running pre DPF vans. Continuously idling a van with a DPF is not going to do much for the filter. Depending on the way it is driven at other times it may of course burn off the excess particulates, but the extra ash will eventually lead to clogging sooner than would otherwise happen. I have seen the technical report on engine failures and the resulting service bulletin from a premium German vehicle manufacturer, aimed at emergency vehicle fleet managers. At the risk of irritating Tracker again, I know this is not completely pertinent to the physics of recharging a battery from the alternator whilst idling, but it is certainly something I think any Eu 5+ or 6 van owners ought to consider if they are thinking of idling their van engines for extended periods, whatever the reason. Fair point. I soon clogged the EGR valve on my Euro 4 but have had no problems since I blocked it off. Doubt if the OP would have any problems running the engine on his 2005 van, but I suspect it would take forever to charge the leisure battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 It applies on a road. There seems to be no definition of road within that piece of legislation, so I would assume it takes the Road Traffic Act meaning of a highway and any other road to which the public have access. This has been amended to include other areas to which the public have access such as car parks. The legislation can only be enforced by an authorised person, who is defined as a person appointed by a designated local authority. This is why I had not previously heard of the legislation. It is not enforceable by a police officer or by a DVSA vehicle examiner. It appears to only apply within the area of a local authority which already contains a designated air quality management area, and as a result of which the local authority has applied to the Secretary of State for, and has been granted further designation as a "Designated Local Authority". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Drew Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Dr Dave - 2018-01-11 4:19 PM Just to be clear in a normal (non active) setup the alternator wont 'give' priority to the engine battery. However it is the fact that usually the engine battery is connected to the alternator via thicker (greater cross sectional area) and shorter cables so the engine battery gets more charging current than the leisure battery(s) If the leisure batteries and the starter battery were on the same loop without any sort of split charge relay or protection diode arrangement to protect the starter battery then they would equalize and you would end up with a flat starter battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandy Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 "I shudder to think how the long term maintenance and repair costs of Euro 5 and 6 engines will pan out compared to the old Euro 4 and earlier petrol engined vans?" This was something I pondered long and hard before buying my current van. I eventually went for Euro 5, on the basis that a) there was little benefit in saving on maintenance costs if that was a result of not clocking up enough mileage to need maintenance, because the van was banned from pretty much everywhere and b) the possibility that any saving would be negated should extra taxes or levies be imposed on older vehicles. While I've had no problems to date, I'd still be happier with the old technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Steve Drew - 2018-01-11 2:52 PM Basically on tickover the voltage output and amps from the alternator will be quite low so it will take a long time to put any appreciable amount of charge into your leisure battery, bearing in mind the alternator will give priority to the engine battery and as a rough guide we always say it takes about 20 minuets running to put back into a battery what starting takes out. Not really. I had a van of a similar age to the OP with a 2.8JTD Ducato engine. I have started the engine and checked the ammeter on the Hab area control panel to see the full 16 amps going through the EBL charger to the leisure batteries. Things may be different nowadays with a new van with a smart alternator. Other charging systems could be different of course and do as you say (give the van battery priority). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dave Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 "If the leisure batteries and the starter battery were on the same loop without any sort of split charge relay or protection diode arrangement to protect the starter battery then they would equalize and you would end up with a flat starter battery." I Really don't know why you quoted me with your post. as i did not infer that the vehicle and leisure batteries batteries should be connected in parallel with no split charge relay. A diode in series is not really suitable as it will cause too much voltage drop across the junction to be useful. But contrary to what your post said i agree that if the batteries were connected in parallel the batteries would equalise but you would not necessarily end up with a flat starter battery but you would only end up with all batteries (leisure and starter) flat if you were to use all the capacity available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallii Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 May I make a request? Please don't idle your engine when parked next to me. Especially not at 7.00 am. When parked in a typical "aire" with still air and a nice sunny day the stink of unburnt fuel with added nitrous oxides is very unpleasant. I would almost (I said almost) prefer a nice petrol generator :-) H PS It's a waste of time and fuel anyway, it takes a drive of about 50 kms to put any decent charge into the batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veletron Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Using the built-in charger and 2x140AH part-drained leisure batteries, I can see 35A passing to the batteries at idle. I am currently using a Sterling 50A B2B, with the vans built-in split-charger, this figure was 25A Pretty unsociable thing to so though - so I choose not to. Quite a few folks are into engine idling at the ski-area's I frequent, but at least this means I get to enjoy my loud music to block out the noise zero cause for complaint ;-) I can get 3 days with temps as low as -10C out of my batteries with the SOC @ around 50% by the end. It comes down to equipping the van for the conditions in which you intend to use it. I find a hookup at home for a night prior to heading off helps get those batteries to 100% SOC also. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 First let's deal with the icecream vans. they run the engine on a fast tickover because they have to run the refrigeration compressor for the icecream maker, and that probably puts an acceptable load on the engine and they get away with it. They have probably driven some distance on the road before they park up, so the engine is hot, and the worst of the engine wear problems from cold start are done. For the rest of us the cold start is the worst part of the engine's life, so don't start it until your are ready to move off, and then drive briskly to get up to operating temperature as quickly as is reasonable. Under no circumstances start from cold and just let it tick over. The cold start settings on your engine, ancient or modern, supply extra fuel to the engine to help it start, and this fuel rich mixture will continue until the engine reaches it's operating temperature. with the van standing ticking over on the drive it could take a really long time to get up to that temperature. if it ever does. All this time there will be unburned fuel left in the cylinder and it will dilute the thin film of lubricating oil on the cylinder walls, and after a while you will be left with the cast iron piston rings rubbing up and down the cast iron cylinder bores with little or no lubrication. If you repeatedly rub anything against a piece of cast iron it will create a smooth hard skin like effect, which will wear out the pistons, allow fuel to seep past the pistons into the lubricating oil and further reduce the chances of trouble free motoring. I would never do it. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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