The Brexit Blog

[Tracker]

Bulletguy - 2018-05-07 11:40 PM

 

So a Brexiteer in all but name! ;-) Your venomous attack on the EU suggests you don't want any part of it at all. Looks like you're going to be disappointed as May has already done yet another u-turn on EU immigration with visa free travel and the right to work and remain here.

 

And only a fool would be prepared to renege on the Good Friday agreement over Ireland so that's looking likely to remain an open border. Oooerrr.....what happened to all this "taking our country back" stuff? Isn't going too well is it? And what's more.....we get to fork out £40 odd billion of having back pretty much what we had before.......but this time having no say in any future dealings.

 

The EU may not have been picture postcard perfect (what is?), but you never 'fix' something by running away from it. We had a say in matters before.....Brexit voted to stop that and run off. And so far they've yet to show anything they promised during their madcap campaign. They had 'ideas' and some pretty crazy and wild 'promises'.....but no exit plan.

 

I see it as pragmatic to wait and see mainly because I, along with you and everyone else, have little choice but to do so. On that basis I am a waitandseer and the £40 billion you quote would go a long way to building a new trading network of countries outside the EU.

 

Far from severing all ties with the EU I do see it as a trading block - much like it used to be - but not to the exclusion of deals with any other country, after all a stronger UK is in everyone's interest surely?

 

I do object to what appears to be the relentless pursuit of a one size fits all political and monetary EU and the seemingly relentless push to dilute national policies in favour of common EU policies. Maybe I am wrong but as a non expert I can only base my views on the fodder I am fed.

 

I have no issue with free movement of people within the EU as it probably brings more benefit than tight restrictions would but it does need tweaking to give us some say about how many unemployed, and unemployable, EU economic migrants come here. I did read somewhere that the UK is one of the better places to be unemployed or homeless in the EU?

 

Those who are here, or arrive later, and are employed and contributing, often buying their own homes, often with families, and enjoying UK life should without question be allowed to remain as long as they wish.

 

As for changing the EU from within, I do not see that as viable as the EU has never shown any outward signs of wanting to reform anything - unless it suits the politcal aspirations.

 

If I see a car I like and after a test drive decide not to buy one the maker might be more inclined to change it if not enough people buy them, whereas if everyone who tests it buys one regardless of it's failings or excessive cost things will never change.

 

Maybe the UK leaving will make the EU take stock and reappraise it's raison d'etre to be more in line with what the millions of bill payers want rather than what the few politicians and beaurocrats in Brussels/Strasbourg want.

 

[Barryd999]

pelmetman - 2018-05-07 10:38 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2018-05-07 10:25 PM

 

Actually the clever people behind Brexit probably knew the EU would not budge on the four freedoms for single market and customs union access and free trade but went along with it as its the last thing they want anyway.

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/europes-biggest-brexit-fear-that-well-flourish-outside-the-eu/

 

" he says, there is also a fear stalking the corridors of power in Germany and elsewhere. What if we flourish outside the EU? The Swedish politician I quoted told me that the editor of a top Swedish newspaper had said to her that if in five to ten years’ time Britain is doing fine, Sweden will probably leave, too. The EU will become the eurozone plus an outer ring of associated countries.

 

Maybe Britain is the canary in the mine, says Buchsteiner. ‘You have often been right in the past from Henry VIII to the decision to challenge Hitler. Perhaps, once again, you are seeing the future more clearly.’"

 

:D .........

 

 

Did you actually read your own article you linked to Dave? Its very pro EU. It pretty much sums up quite well what the rest of Europe thinks of Brexit and how most people think its bonkers but more worryingly there are undertones of anger and resentment brewing in certain countries as to our attitude towards their citizens and of course longer term the damage it may do to their countries (Although it will be insignificant compared to the damage it will inflict on the UK). It just made me even sadder though to read about how some of the countries like Sweden felt towards us and the sadness of many others (And bewilderment) That we are leaving.

 

The bit you happened to cut and paste is just one blokes opinion but in general most Europeans think we are crackers and clearly Brexit has if anything brought them closer together and more united behind the EU. Even that crackpot racist Le Pen has given up on abandoning the Euro according to your link.

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2018-05-08 11:04 AM

 

The bit you happened to cut and paste is just one blokes opinion but in general most Europeans think we are crackers and clearly Brexit has if anything brought them closer together and more united behind the EU. Even that crackpot racist Le Pen has given up on abandoning the Euro according to your link.

 

I guess we'll find out in 5 years time eh? ;-) .........

 

I see Italy will be having another election :D ........

 

Another chance for their Anti EU parties to increase their share of the vote again B-) ............

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

derek pringle - 2018-05-08 9:24 AM.........................Hi Brian,

I agree but feel where we went wrong was not leaving when the EU started changing from Common Market to a State. For years we have not had the same currency, so not fully aligned and not part of some of the financial planning plus we have always been against the ECJ. It seems it was always going to go further in unification than some would like and ice we would have had the referendum then we would have been less up to our knees than we are now in being able to negotiate the way out. This is a negotiation and as such no side will offer things but we need to be more defined [well mrs May does ] in EXACTLY what we want or our position. The Customs Control she is after has not even been costed yet but we know will mean a huge chunk of bureaucracy to implement coupled with a huge cost.All things like this will make a big difference to what our savings are envisaged to be as a result of leaving. For or against a final vote it seems to me more and more necessary as time goes on BUT I would prefer the nation to vote than just Parliament.

cheers

derek

But, Derek, the EEC was never just a common market, and at its core has always harboured a desire, if not quite to become a state, to more deeply integrate its member states politically as well as Economically. It, and we, have all been there before.

 

The main reason De Gaulle vetoed Britain's membership was that Britain would bring too internationalist a flavour to the EEC. He wanted the focus to be on Europe, not the rest of the world. But, neither did he want a federalist Europe, and had pushed for the change from the ECSC to the EEC because he thought the ECSC too integrationist. This argument over the balance between a United States of Europe, and a Europe of cooperating states, goes back to WW2.

 

It continues, and the present moves for closer integration are merely a re-visiting of the same old argument. It is the "European bogey man" that has been used for years by "died in the wool Brexiters" to frighten people to agitate, and later vote, to leave the EEC and the EU. What they have never been able to demonstrate is where, apart from among a relative small group of federationalists, there is enthusiasm for homogenising the European states into a single super-state that subsumes them. I certainly can't see it, and I doubt if you can either.

 

I appreciate that many (some of whom should know better!) are suspicious of the ECJ, but I do wonder if they understand its jurisdiction and its purpose. The EU, and before it the EEC, is a political construct through which a group of countries has decided to share aspects of their sovereignty to their greater mutual advantage. For this to work, all have to agree to adopt, and abide by, a set of common rules. For that to be properly policed, there has to be a legal framework, and for that framework to have force, it has to have sanctions against breaches. The ECJ is the court in which claimed breaches of EU law are tried. It's job is to adjudicate on claimed breaches of EU legislation and, if found guilty, impose sanctions against the perpetrator. It has to be remembered that the plaintiffs will be states, and not individuals, that each member state of the EU appoints one judge, and that cases can only be brought on matters of European law, and then only by the national court of each member state. There is no appeal procedure. If the plaintiff is to be a national state, and the charge is that the state has been in some way "cheating" on the application of European law, I don't see what alternative institution could be envisaged to enforce the club rules, except, I suppose, war. But, that is exactly the scenario the whole ECSC/EEC/EU edifice was originally set up to avoid.

 

Regarding negotiations, there are two kinds. Those in which one party holds a gun (metaphorical or real!) to the other's head, and those in which both parties argue for a mutually acceptable common outcome. Elements within the UK (mainly Brexiters) have sought to present our negotiations with the EU as being of the former type (though they vacillate wildly over whether it is the UK or the EU holding the gun, depending on whether or not they like the proposed outcome :-)), whereas the actual negotiations are, as they have to be in the real world, of the latter type, with both the UK and the EU having to give, in order to gain.

 

I think that if you are hoping for an overall cost gain from leaving, you are bound to be disappointed. Every government assessment to date shows that leaving will prove more costly to the UK than remaining in. The only people advancing cost savings as a reason for leaving are basing their arguments on two things. First, that we shall be able to trade with other countries basically cost free (which has never, ever, been true) and second, that all these third party states are so anxious to trade with the UK that they will want no concessions in return for access to their markets. Underlying all of this is what those advocating this Utopian state of trade mean: export trade, or import trade. Since the UK has for years imported more than it exports, what we need is access to their markets, on favourable terms, to allow us to sell them more. For that access, they will exact some charge, always have, always will - it is what governments are for.

 

But, what a lot of the free traders are after is access to foreign markets to buy, not sell, which means increased imports which, in turn, will have its impact on the UK's already poor balance of trade but also our producers through increased competition. If we buy cheaper (for example) agricultural produce abroad, we shall be unable to maintain present levels of production at home - we can only eat so much! So, what then happens to the present farmers and market gardeners in UK? What then happens to the land on which they grow? Finally, what happens when some international event means that this source of cheap food becomes unavailable? What then do we eat? Choose your industry, and ask the same questions? If we aren't producing, who will pay the wages of our citizenry? If our citizenry aren't being paid, what are they to live on? If the state, what will happen to our taxes? Finally, if our citizenry aren't being paid, how then will we pay for all those cheap imports? Free market merchants are opportunists who invest nothing to maximise their gains at the expense of all. They make the money, and the rest of society eventually has to pick up the pieces. Surely, history, especially the history of the UK, teaches us that?

 

It isn't possible for everyone to move to work in the services sectors, we aren't all equipped for it. So, what of the average Joe? What job does he get? House cleaning for a banker? Is that what this great free market credo is really offering the average person? Just enough money to stave off starvation and eviction, while the fat cats just get fatter and fatter. Is that the real promised land of Brexit?

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-08 5:41 PM

 

It isn't possible for everyone to move to work in the services sectors, we aren't all equipped for it. So, what of the average Joe? What job does he get? House cleaning for a banker? Is that what this great free market credo is really offering the average person? Just enough money to stave off starvation and eviction, while the fat cats just get fatter and fatter. Is that the real promised land of Brexit?

 

Well your the one who wants us to stay in the EU so everyone looking for a job now has to compete against workers from 26 other countries, many of whom from the former Eastern block will work for peanuts..........and folk like you wonder why wages are stagnating *-) .........

 

Jesus couldn't even make that up (lol) .......

 

 

[Barryd999]

An excellent post Brian. Sums it all up very well. I urge everyone to take the time to read it. I actually found it somewhat depressing. The Mad Max Dystopian vision of a post Brexit UK that laughing boy David Davis unnecessarily put into everyone's heads when nobody had even considered that may well become a reality. :-(

 

Dave, when will you accept that to the Brexit elite it has never been about Immigration, that was just vote fodder for Mail readers. They will still have to come from somewhere as they are filling the majority of rolls that nobody in the UK Will ever take on because they cant do them for a variety of reasons, that wont change. Of course you will be happy to know that we are seeing off really important and badly needed immigrants such as doctors and nurses already at a rate of knots.

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2018-05-09 12:11 PM

 

An excellent post Brian. Sums it all up very well. I urge everyone to take the time to read it. I actually found it somewhat depressing. The Mad Max Dystopian vision of a post Brexit UK that laughing boy David Davis unnecessarily put into everyone's heads when nobody had even considered that may well become a reality. :-(

 

Dave, when will you accept that to the Brexit elite it has never been about Immigration, that was just vote fodder for Mail readers. They will still have to come from somewhere as they are filling the majority of rolls that nobody in the UK Will ever take on because they cant do them for a variety of reasons, that wont change. Of course you will be happy to know that we are seeing off really important and badly needed immigrants such as doctors and nurses already at a rate of knots.

 

Correct it's not all about immigration ;-) ..........It's about a lot more than that :-| .........

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 12:55 PM..........................

Correct it's not all about immigration ;-) ..........It's about a lot more than that :-| .........

Yeeeeeeeeesss. :-) So what else is it about? Do tell. Then, I just may find the answers to my questions as well.

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 1:19 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 12:55 PM..........................

Correct it's not all about immigration ;-) ..........It's about a lot more than that :-| .........

Yeeeeeeeeesss. :-) So what else is it about? Do tell. Then, I just may find the answers to my questions as well.

 

As Barry pointed out the other day about those Northerners who voted Brexit yet receive cash from the EU being swivelled eyed loons ;-) ..........

 

Maybe they voted for Brexit because like me they can't see the point of giving cash to the EU, so that they can give it back to us and condescendingly tell us where to spend IT! *-) ..........

 

The list is endless, ECHR, EU Criminals, EU cheap labour, EU dictate.......etc etc etc .......Not to mention the 350 million a week >:-) .........

 

 

[Barryd999]

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 1:48 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 1:19 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 12:55 PM..........................

Correct it's not all about immigration ;-) ..........It's about a lot more than that :-| .........

Yeeeeeeeeesss. :-) So what else is it about? Do tell. Then, I just may find the answers to my questions as well.

 

As Barry pointed out the other day about those Northerners who voted Brexit yet receive cash from the EU being swivelled eyed loons ;-) ..........

 

Maybe they voted for Brexit because like me they can't see the point of giving cash to the EU, so that they can give it back to us and condescendingly tell us where to spend IT! *-) ..........

 

The list is endless, ECHR, EU Criminals, EU cheap labour, EU dictate.......etc etc etc .......Not to mention the 350 million a week >:-) .........

 

 

Your mistaken. I have never called the Northern Brexit voters swivel eyed loons. The swivel eyed loons are the Fruitloops in the ERG driving a hard Brexit to suit their own ends and that of their masters. The EU dont tell us where to spend our funding but are very good in backing projects in places where our government are not yet sadly a lot of people in those areas voted out.

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 1:48 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 1:19 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 12:55 PM..........................

Correct it's not all about immigration ;-) ..........It's about a lot more than that :-| .........

Yeeeeeeeeesss. :-) So what else is it about? Do tell. Then, I just may find the answers to my questions as well.

 

As Barry pointed out the other day about those Northerners who voted Brexit yet receive cash from the EU being swivelled eyed loons ;-) ..........

 

Maybe they voted for Brexit because like me they can't see the point of giving cash to the EU, so that they can give it back to us and condescendingly tell us where to spend IT! *-) ..........

 

The list is endless, ECHR, EU Criminals, EU cheap labour, EU dictate.......etc etc etc .......Not to mention the 350 million a week >:-) .........

I thought you'd long tried to squirm your way out of the £350m a week lie? So now it's back on eh? NHS chief Simon Stevens will be pleased to hear you say that because he called you out on it.

 

“The NHS wasn’t on the ballot paper, but it was on the battlebus. Vote Leave for a better funded health service – £350m a week. Trust in democratic politics will not be strengthened if anyone now tries to argue: ‘You voted Brexit, partly for a better funded health service. But precisely because of Brexit, you now can’t have one.’"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/08/brexiters-must-honour-extra-cash-pledge-for-nhs-says-health-chief

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2018-05-09 2:31 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 1:48 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 1:19 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 12:55 PM..........................

Correct it's not all about immigration ;-) ..........It's about a lot more than that :-| .........

Yeeeeeeeeesss. :-) So what else is it about? Do tell. Then, I just may find the answers to my questions as well.

 

As Barry pointed out the other day about those Northerners who voted Brexit yet receive cash from the EU being swivelled eyed loons ;-) ..........

 

Maybe they voted for Brexit because like me they can't see the point of giving cash to the EU, so that they can give it back to us and condescendingly tell us where to spend IT! *-) ..........

 

The list is endless, ECHR, EU Criminals, EU cheap labour, EU dictate.......etc etc etc .......Not to mention the 350 million a week >:-) .........

I thought you'd long tried to squirm your way out of the £350m a week lie? So now it's back on eh? NHS chief Simon Stevens will be pleased to hear you say that because he called you out on it.

 

“The NHS wasn’t on the ballot paper, but it was on the battlebus. Vote Leave for a better funded health service – £350m a week. Trust in democratic politics will not be strengthened if anyone now tries to argue: ‘You voted Brexit, partly for a better funded health service. But precisely because of Brexit, you now can’t have one.’"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/08/brexiters-must-honour-extra-cash-pledge-for-nhs-says-health-chief

 

It said "lets fund our NHS instead" ;-) .........It didn't say we'd give it all to the NHS did it? *-) ........

 

Besides they'd only waste it on more managers 8-) ...........

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5447819/NHS-hires-1-300-penpushers.html

 

 

[antony1969]

You wanna talk about NHS waste ... Talk to moi ... By PM ... Utterly shocking ... Ive made a few nice quid out of em though

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 1:48 PM..........................

1 Maybe they voted for Brexit because like me they can't see the point of giving cash to the EU, so that they can give it back to us and condescendingly tell us where to spend IT! *-) ..........

 

2 The list is endless, ECHR, EU Criminals, EU cheap labour, EU dictate.......etc etc etc .......Not to mention the 350 million a week >:-) .........

1 Well, that is one, negative, way of seeing it. It has the purpose of trying to redistribute some money around the EU, mainly to boost the economies of the less well off states - in much the same way that the UK government puts some of its money into regional funds etc., to try to boost the economies of parts of the UK. In both cases it is done in the interest of growing the overall economy: on the basis that if the parts that are not doing well can be helped to do better, those parts make more money, employ more people, pay those they employ better, and the resulting growth in incomes and reduction in unemployment means more people with higher disposable incomes, leading to more spending and so better success for local businesses. So, ultimately, it is to promote healthier economies and better paid people.

 

2 The European Court of Human Rights is not part of the EU. It was established under the European Convention on Human Rights in 1959. The European Convention on Human Rights is a pan national treaty drafted in 1950 by the Council of Europe, of which the UK is a founder member. The Council of Europe was founded in 1949, and has 47 member states. All easily checkable. As it is not part of the EU, being a totally independent institution, it is pointless leaving the EU to escape its jurisdiction.

 

The only way to prevent criminals entering the UK is a total ban on immigration. If people migrate to the UK, some will commit crimes, just as some of those born in the UK do. If they do, they should be deported. If they are not deported, it is because the UK government fails to deport them. Leaving the EU in order to get EU criminals deported would only make sense if the EU was responsible for their deportation. It isn't. You should have voted to leave the UK, not the EU!

 

Cheap EU labour only exists in the UK because the UK government permits it. There is a national minimum wage, and not paying it is an offence. All EU labour in UK should be paid at least that rate. The UK government is not obliged to admit people to work in the UK merely because they come from within the EU. It is permissible to limit entry on a number of grounds, as I have posted before, quoting the relevant legislation. The UK government choses not to do so. Again, you should have voted to leave the UK, not the EU.

 

The EU cannot dictate to the UK or any other EU state unless the UK has broken EU law. Even then it is not the EU that applies the sanction, it is the European Court of Justice, which is independent of the EU, and comprises 28 judges, one from each EU state, as nominated by the states individually. Otherwise, EU legislation and regulation is agreed among the states by the democratically elected ministers of the 28 states, meeting in the European Council, and also adopted by the European Parliament. It is obvious that some notions cherished by any state individually may not be supported by the majority, but that is normal with any issue under any democratic system. If the EU has adopted measures that you strongly disagree with, either you are not in agreement with the UK government, the UK government lost the argument, or the UK government was neutral, but preferred to blame the other states for the outcome for political reasons. It seems that, yet again, we are in the territory where you should have voted to leave the UK, not the EU.

 

It is worrying that so important a decision can have been taken on the basis of so much misunderstanding.

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 5:17 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2018-05-09 2:31 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 1:48 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 1:19 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 12:55 PM..........................

Correct it's not all about immigration ;-) ..........It's about a lot more than that :-| .........

Yeeeeeeeeesss. :-) So what else is it about? Do tell. Then, I just may find the answers to my questions as well.

 

As Barry pointed out the other day about those Northerners who voted Brexit yet receive cash from the EU being swivelled eyed loons ;-) ..........

 

Maybe they voted for Brexit because like me they can't see the point of giving cash to the EU, so that they can give it back to us and condescendingly tell us where to spend IT! *-) ..........

 

The list is endless, ECHR, EU Criminals, EU cheap labour, EU dictate.......etc etc etc .......Not to mention the 350 million a week >:-) .........

I thought you'd long tried to squirm your way out of the £350m a week lie? So now it's back on eh? NHS chief Simon Stevens will be pleased to hear you say that because he called you out on it.

 

“The NHS wasn’t on the ballot paper, but it was on the battlebus. Vote Leave for a better funded health service – £350m a week. Trust in democratic politics will not be strengthened if anyone now tries to argue: ‘You voted Brexit, partly for a better funded health service. But precisely because of Brexit, you now can’t have one.’"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/nov/08/brexiters-must-honour-extra-cash-pledge-for-nhs-says-health-chief

 

It said "lets fund our NHS instead" ;-) ........It didn't say we'd give it all to the NHS did it? *-) .....

Funding/giving amounts to the same but the argument over it being a lie was not only proven but also admitted by Cummings that Brexit could never have succeeded with the con, along with immigration.....neither of which you can deliver. But Brexit voters will be held to account over it of that you can be sure. As Simon Stevens said "trust in democratic politics will not be strengthened by anyone who tries to argue 'you voted Brexit for a better funded NHS, but because of Brexit you now can't have one".

 

You need to start delivering. The NHS is waiting for that money.

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 6:36 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-09 1:48 PM..........................

1 Maybe they voted for Brexit because like me they can't see the point of giving cash to the EU, so that they can give it back to us and condescendingly tell us where to spend IT! *-) ..........

 

2 The list is endless, ECHR, EU Criminals, EU cheap labour, EU dictate.......etc etc etc .......Not to mention the 350 million a week >:-) .........

1 Well, that is one, negative, way of seeing it. It has the purpose of trying to redistribute some money around the EU, mainly to boost the economies of the less well off states - in much the same way that the UK government puts some of its money into regional funds etc., to try to boost the economies of parts of the UK. In both cases it is done in the interest of growing the overall economy: on the basis that if the parts that are not doing well can be helped to do better, those parts make more money, employ more people, pay those they employ better, and the resulting growth in incomes and reduction in unemployment means more people with higher disposable incomes, leading to more spending and so better success for local businesses. So, ultimately, it is to promote healthier economies and better paid people.

 

2 The European Court of Human Rights is not part of the EU. It was established under the European Convention on Human Rights in 1959. The European Convention on Human Rights is a pan national treaty drafted in 1950 by the Council of Europe, of which the UK is a founder member. The Council of Europe was founded in 1949, and has 47 member states. All easily checkable. As it is not part of the EU, being a totally independent institution, it is pointless leaving the EU to escape its jurisdiction.

 

The only way to prevent criminals entering the UK is a total ban on immigration. If people migrate to the UK, some will commit crimes, just as some of those born in the UK do. If they do, they should be deported. If they are not deported, it is because the UK government fails to deport them. Leaving the EU in order to get EU criminals deported would only make sense if the EU was responsible for their deportation. It isn't. You should have voted to leave the UK, not the EU!

 

Cheap EU labour only exists in the UK because the UK government permits it. There is a national minimum wage, and not paying it is an offence. All EU labour in UK should be paid at least that rate. The UK government is not obliged to admit people to work in the UK merely because they come from within the EU. It is permissible to limit entry on a number of grounds, as I have posted before, quoting the relevant legislation. The UK government choses not to do so. Again, you should have voted to leave the UK, not the EU.

 

The EU cannot dictate to the UK or any other EU state unless the UK has broken EU law. Even then it is not the EU that applies the sanction, it is the European Court of Justice, which is independent of the EU, and comprises 28 judges, one from each EU state, as nominated by the states individually. Otherwise, EU legislation and regulation is agreed among the states by the democratically elected ministers of the 28 states, meeting in the European Council, and also adopted by the European Parliament. It is obvious that some notions cherished by any state individually may not be supported by the majority, but that is normal with any issue under any democratic system. If the EU has adopted measures that you strongly disagree with, either you are not in agreement with the UK government, the UK government lost the argument, or the UK government was neutral, but preferred to blame the other states for the outcome for political reasons. It seems that, yet again, we are in the territory where you should have voted to leave the UK, not the EU.

 

It is worrying that so important a decision can have been taken on the basis of so much misunderstanding.

Well Pelmet? Don't you have anything to say on what Brian has told you?

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 6:36 PM

 

It is worrying that so important a decision can have been taken on the basis of so much misunderstanding.

 

There's no misunderstanding 40 years of experience of the European Empire project ;-) .........

 

So it wont be dismantled in a day (^) ...........

 

You may be happy to be a member of the EU .......I ain't, along with 17,410,741 others B-) ...................

 

Once we've kicked them into touch we can start terminating our obligations to the ECHR, which Mrs May has indicated she's up for >:-) ..........

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-manifesto-uk-echr-european-convention-human-rights-leave-eu-next-parliament-election-a7742436.html

 

Leaving the EU is just the start of my bucket list :-> ........

 

 

[Bulletguy]

pelmetman - 2018-05-10 9:20 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 6:36 PM

 

It is worrying that so important a decision can have been taken on the basis of so much misunderstanding.

 

There's no misunderstanding 40 years of experience of the European Empire project ;-) .........

 

So it wont be dismantled in a day (^) ...........

 

You may be happy to be a member of the EU .......I ain't, along with 17,410,741 others B-) ...................

 

Once we've kicked them into touch we can start terminating our obligations to the ECHR, which Mrs May has indicated she's up for >:-) ..........

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-manifesto-uk-echr-european-convention-human-rights-leave-eu-next-parliament-election-a7742436.html

 

Leaving the EU is just the start of my bucket list :-> ........

Oh dear.....is that really the best you can muster?!! *-)

 

Brian was right when he said "you should have voted to leave the UK, not the EU". . (lol)(lol)

[Guest pelmetman]

Bulletguy - 2018-05-10 2:21 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-10 9:20 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 6:36 PM

 

It is worrying that so important a decision can have been taken on the basis of so much misunderstanding.

 

There's no misunderstanding 40 years of experience of the European Empire project ;-) .........

 

So it wont be dismantled in a day (^) ...........

 

You may be happy to be a member of the EU .......I ain't, along with 17,410,741 others B-) ...................

 

Once we've kicked them into touch we can start terminating our obligations to the ECHR, which Mrs May has indicated she's up for >:-) ..........

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-manifesto-uk-echr-european-convention-human-rights-leave-eu-next-parliament-election-a7742436.html

 

Leaving the EU is just the start of my bucket list :-> ........

Oh dear.....is that really the best you can muster?!! *-)

 

Brian was right when he said "you should have voted to leave the UK, not the EU". . (lol)(lol)

 

Oh I forgot your another one of the 13% :D ........

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

pelmetman - 2018-05-10 9:20 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 6:36 PM

 

It is worrying that so important a decision can have been taken on the basis of so much misunderstanding.

 

There's no misunderstanding 40 years of experience of the European Empire project ;-) ....................

I'm afraid that in your case there seems to be is considerable scope for misunderstanding what has happened over those 40 years, as I pointed out in my above reply to your comments.

 

I'm sorry, but you can't expect to be taken seriously if you claim to understand, while demonstrating the complete opposite.

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-10 4:25 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-10 9:20 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 6:36 PM

 

It is worrying that so important a decision can have been taken on the basis of so much misunderstanding.

 

There's no misunderstanding 40 years of experience of the European Empire project ;-) ....................

I'm afraid that in your case there seems to be is considerable scope for misunderstanding what has happened over those 40 years, as I pointed out in my above reply to your comments.

 

I'm sorry, but you can't expect to be taken seriously if you claim to understand, while demonstrating the complete opposite.

Well said Brian. I totally agree.

[Barryd999]

Here you go!!!

 

Senior Brexiteer and first class lying idiot Dan Hannan today admitted leaving the European Union is “not working out” the way it was planned.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/senior-brexiteer-admits-leaving-eu-is-not-quite-going-to-plan-a3835561.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1525954149

 

Planned!! Planned? Did he really say that? What plan? There was no plan, just dreams, hope and blind faith and now as predicted "Project Fear" as it was wrongly labelled has come back to bite them on the arse.

 

He now thinks we should have a Swiss type deal with access to the single market via EFTA. Yep ok. So we have to have the Customs Union as well then as we have now found out in order to continue just in time trade as well as solve the NI Border issue amongst other things. So thats basically errr, being in the EU then.

 

This however could solve the problem of what to do with the Swivel eyed rabid Brexiteers in the Tory Party and ERG for Theresa May as Switzerland has Planned euthanasia. :D

[Guest pelmetman]

Barryd999 - 2018-05-10 4:57 PM

 

Here you go!!!

 

Senior Brexiteer and first class lying idiot Dan Hannan today admitted leaving the European Union is “not working out” the way it was planned.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/senior-brexiteer-admits-leaving-eu-is-not-quite-going-to-plan-a3835561.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1525954149

 

Planned!! Planned? Did he really say that? What plan? There was no plan, just dreams, hope and blind faith and now as predicted "Project Fear" as it was wrongly labelled has come back to bite them on the arse.

 

Well we didn't know we had 13% UK back stabbing traitors did we ;-) .......

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-10 4:25 PM

 

pelmetman - 2018-05-10 9:20 AM

 

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-09 6:36 PM

 

It is worrying that so important a decision can have been taken on the basis of so much misunderstanding.

 

There's no misunderstanding 40 years of experience of the European Empire project ;-) ....................

I'm afraid that in your case there seems to be is considerable scope for misunderstanding what has happened over those 40 years, as I pointed out in my above reply to your comments.

 

I'm sorry, but you can't expect to be taken seriously if you claim to understand, while demonstrating the complete opposite.

 

Yet you expect us to take you 13% seriously? *-) ..........

 

Fortunately the UK has demonstrated we are completely opposite to you Barry & Bullet >:-) ........

 

Maybe you should call yourselves the "BBB boy's" :D ........

 

Perhaps not.... those initials could easily be mistaken for some other kinda club 8-) .......

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2018-05-10 4:57 PM

 

Here you go!!!

 

Senior Brexiteer and first class lying idiot Dan Hannan today admitted leaving the European Union is “not working out” the way it was planned.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/senior-brexiteer-admits-leaving-eu-is-not-quite-going-to-plan-a3835561.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1525954149

 

Planned!! Planned? Did he really say that? What plan? There was no plan, just dreams, hope and blind faith and now as predicted "Project Fear" as it was wrongly labelled has come back to bite them on the arse.

 

He now thinks we should have a Swiss type deal with access to the single market via EFTA. Yep ok. So we have to have the Customs Union as well then as we have now found out in order to continue just in time trade as well as solve the NI Border issue amongst other things. So thats basically errr, being in the EU then.

 

This however could solve the problem of what to do with the Swivel eyed rabid Brexiteers in the Tory Party and ERG for Theresa May as Switzerland has Planned euthanasia. :D

Hmmmmmmmm! Thought so. :-)

 

From Wiki:

 

"The Court of Justice of the European Free Trade Association States (more commonly known as the EFTA Court) is a supranational judicial body responsible for the three EFTA members who are also members of the European Economic Area (EEA): Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway.

 

As members of the EEA, the three countries have access to the internal market of the European Union. Consequently, they are subject to a number of European laws. Enforcement of these laws would normally be carried out by the European Court of Justice (ECJ), however there were legal difficulties in giving Union institutions powers over non-members so the EFTA Court was set up to perform this role instead of the ECJ."

 

So, as Daniel said, no ECJ, but, as he omitted to say, the "EFTA Court" instead. Did Daniel know? Just, to quote Dave P, askin'! :-D

 

Just think, four whole countries! Switzerland; pop just over 8 million: Norway; pop just over 5 million: Iceland; pop 322,000: and Lichtenstein; pop 37,000. How they/the EU would react to the UK with its 66.5 million population transferring into EFTA, is anyone's guess.

 

It increasingly begins to look as though the Brexit ideal is proving far more complex and difficult that any of its arch proponents foresaw (mostly due to a lack of foresight), so we may end up having to leave in name only so that they can save face. If that is what it comes to, I just hope the rabbit hole we all get shoved down is a bit more sane than Alice found Wonderland!

 

Still, there'll be plenty of Mad Hatters around once we arrive! :-D