Bulletguy Posted April 1, 2019 Share Posted April 1, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-04-01 9:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 8:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 7:34 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 6:05 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 4:28 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 4:09 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 3:37 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 3:35 PM colin - 2019-04-01 2:46 PM First of the Traitors? IMO Grieve should be following the wishes of his constituents, as they voted remain he is a traitor if he backs Brexit. ;-) They voted Leave Colin but more importantly by an extremely narrow margin of just 570 out of 40755 votes, but that was almost three years ago and as we all know including Brexiteers (though they wouldn't ever admit it), many have changed their minds and come to their senses since seeing the huge damage Brexit has done to the country. Funny how I've only met Remoaners who have changed their minds :D ......... Even funnier that you're never able to back any of that up with anything credible isn't it? Seeing as you don't leave that old tub most days, how many Brit immigrants to Spain who went there to live (unlike you) have you asked? Please explain why those allowed a vote would vote to ruin their retired life they'd planned so long for in Spain. Tell me how they would benefit from voting for a country to exit the EU, a country they've already exited from, to live permanently in an EU country. Your confusing me with selfish expats who voted for themselves.....Not their country *-) ........ They aren't expats. They are immigrants who moved to live there for a better lifestyle hence the reason you couldn't answer the questions i put to you. And don't give me that bullcrap you voted for 'your country', because if genuinely so patriotic you'd remain in this country continually supporting its economy instead of running off to Spain half the year using every trick in the book you can find to overstay. Your rank hypocrisy is blatant and you've been continually boastful about it. Well if they're immigrants then they truly are selfish *-) ......... Of course they're migrants and how wanting to improve ones lifestyle legitimately could be deemed 'selfish' i've no idea. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though. Why should someone who has migrated from the UK have an vote on what happens in the UK?........ That's what seems more than a tad selfish to me *-) .......... Only those who have been non-resident UK for less than 15 years could vote. Approx 700,000 British immigrants living and working overseas were denied a vote. Others were the 3,400 Falkland islanders, 84,000 Isle of Man and 166,000 on Channel islands as they are crown dependancies. Would you say British immigrant residents of Gibraltar are 'selfish'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 10:19 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 9:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 8:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 7:34 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 6:05 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 4:28 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 4:09 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 3:37 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 3:35 PM colin - 2019-04-01 2:46 PM First of the Traitors? IMO Grieve should be following the wishes of his constituents, as they voted remain he is a traitor if he backs Brexit. ;-) They voted Leave Colin but more importantly by an extremely narrow margin of just 570 out of 40755 votes, but that was almost three years ago and as we all know including Brexiteers (though they wouldn't ever admit it), many have changed their minds and come to their senses since seeing the huge damage Brexit has done to the country. Funny how I've only met Remoaners who have changed their minds :D ......... Even funnier that you're never able to back any of that up with anything credible isn't it? Seeing as you don't leave that old tub most days, how many Brit immigrants to Spain who went there to live (unlike you) have you asked? Please explain why those allowed a vote would vote to ruin their retired life they'd planned so long for in Spain. Tell me how they would benefit from voting for a country to exit the EU, a country they've already exited from, to live permanently in an EU country. Your confusing me with selfish expats who voted for themselves.....Not their country *-) ........ They aren't expats. They are immigrants who moved to live there for a better lifestyle hence the reason you couldn't answer the questions i put to you. And don't give me that bullcrap you voted for 'your country', because if genuinely so patriotic you'd remain in this country continually supporting its economy instead of running off to Spain half the year using every trick in the book you can find to overstay. Your rank hypocrisy is blatant and you've been continually boastful about it. Well if they're immigrants then they truly are selfish *-) ......... Of course they're migrants and how wanting to improve ones lifestyle legitimately could be deemed 'selfish' i've no idea. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though. Why should someone who has migrated from the UK have an vote on what happens in the UK?........ That's what seems more than a tad selfish to me *-) .......... Only those who have been non-resident UK for less than 15 years could vote. Approx 700,000 British immigrants living and working overseas were denied a vote. Others were the 3,400 Falkland islanders, 84,000 Isle of Man and 166,000 on Channel islands as they are crown dependancies. Would you say British immigrant residents of Gibraltar are 'selfish'? YES :D ........ There's nothing stopping crown dependencies having a vote for Independence if they don't like being part of a Independent UK ;-) .......... Unlike you........I don't have a problem with democracy >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-04-02 8:48 AM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 10:19 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 9:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 8:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 7:34 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 6:05 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 4:28 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 4:09 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 3:37 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 3:35 PM colin - 2019-04-01 2:46 PM First of the Traitors? IMO Grieve should be following the wishes of his constituents, as they voted remain he is a traitor if he backs Brexit. ;-) They voted Leave Colin but more importantly by an extremely narrow margin of just 570 out of 40755 votes, but that was almost three years ago and as we all know including Brexiteers (though they wouldn't ever admit it), many have changed their minds and come to their senses since seeing the huge damage Brexit has done to the country. Funny how I've only met Remoaners who have changed their minds :D ......... Even funnier that you're never able to back any of that up with anything credible isn't it? Seeing as you don't leave that old tub most days, how many Brit immigrants to Spain who went there to live (unlike you) have you asked? Please explain why those allowed a vote would vote to ruin their retired life they'd planned so long for in Spain. Tell me how they would benefit from voting for a country to exit the EU, a country they've already exited from, to live permanently in an EU country. Your confusing me with selfish expats who voted for themselves.....Not their country *-) ........ They aren't expats. They are immigrants who moved to live there for a better lifestyle hence the reason you couldn't answer the questions i put to you. And don't give me that bullcrap you voted for 'your country', because if genuinely so patriotic you'd remain in this country continually supporting its economy instead of running off to Spain half the year using every trick in the book you can find to overstay. Your rank hypocrisy is blatant and you've been continually boastful about it. Well if they're immigrants then they truly are selfish *-) ......... Of course they're migrants and how wanting to improve ones lifestyle legitimately could be deemed 'selfish' i've no idea. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though. Why should someone who has migrated from the UK have an vote on what happens in the UK?........ That's what seems more than a tad selfish to me *-) .......... Only those who have been non-resident UK for less than 15 years could vote. Approx 700,000 British immigrants living and working overseas were denied a vote. Others were the 3,400 Falkland islanders, 84,000 Isle of Man and 166,000 on Channel islands as they are crown dependancies. Would you say British immigrant residents of Gibraltar are 'selfish'? YES :D ........ There's nothing stopping crown dependencies having a vote for Independence if they don't like being part of a Independent UK ;-) .......... Unlike you........I don't have a problem with democracy >:-) ........ You have a massive problem with democracy as you're blatantly ignoring sovereignty.....but then we knew that three years ago when you threw your toys out in a rage over the Gina Miller case. Gibraltar is a sovereign country. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 2:09 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-02 8:48 AM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 10:19 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 9:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 8:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 7:34 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 6:05 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 4:28 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 4:09 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 3:37 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 3:35 PM colin - 2019-04-01 2:46 PM First of the Traitors? IMO Grieve should be following the wishes of his constituents, as they voted remain he is a traitor if he backs Brexit. ;-) They voted Leave Colin but more importantly by an extremely narrow margin of just 570 out of 40755 votes, but that was almost three years ago and as we all know including Brexiteers (though they wouldn't ever admit it), many have changed their minds and come to their senses since seeing the huge damage Brexit has done to the country. Funny how I've only met Remoaners who have changed their minds :D ......... Even funnier that you're never able to back any of that up with anything credible isn't it? Seeing as you don't leave that old tub most days, how many Brit immigrants to Spain who went there to live (unlike you) have you asked? Please explain why those allowed a vote would vote to ruin their retired life they'd planned so long for in Spain. Tell me how they would benefit from voting for a country to exit the EU, a country they've already exited from, to live permanently in an EU country. Your confusing me with selfish expats who voted for themselves.....Not their country *-) ........ They aren't expats. They are immigrants who moved to live there for a better lifestyle hence the reason you couldn't answer the questions i put to you. And don't give me that bullcrap you voted for 'your country', because if genuinely so patriotic you'd remain in this country continually supporting its economy instead of running off to Spain half the year using every trick in the book you can find to overstay. Your rank hypocrisy is blatant and you've been continually boastful about it. Well if they're immigrants then they truly are selfish *-) ......... Of course they're migrants and how wanting to improve ones lifestyle legitimately could be deemed 'selfish' i've no idea. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though. Why should someone who has migrated from the UK have an vote on what happens in the UK?........ That's what seems more than a tad selfish to me *-) .......... Only those who have been non-resident UK for less than 15 years could vote. Approx 700,000 British immigrants living and working overseas were denied a vote. Others were the 3,400 Falkland islanders, 84,000 Isle of Man and 166,000 on Channel islands as they are crown dependancies. Would you say British immigrant residents of Gibraltar are 'selfish'? YES :D ........ There's nothing stopping crown dependencies having a vote for Independence if they don't like being part of a Independent UK ;-) .......... Unlike you........I don't have a problem with democracy >:-) ........ You have a massive problem with democracy as you're blatantly ignoring sovereignty.....but then we knew that three years ago when you threw your toys out in a rage over the Gina Miller case. Gibraltar is a sovereign country. *-) You mean like Mrs Miller's birth place......British Guiana ;-) ........ Who voted for Independence in 1966 (lol) (lol) (lol) ........... So it's OK for HER COUNTRY to vote for Independence .......But not the UK *-) ........ It seems to me Mrs Miller like yourself are the two faced anti democratic hypocrites here >:-) ......... But then again you are a Communist so I shouldn't be surprised :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 That's another one gone >:-) ......... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6876713/Remain-rebel-MP-ringleader-Nick-Boles-looks-gloomy-quitting-Tories.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-04-02 2:25 PM You mean like Mrs Miller's birth place......British Guiana ;-) ........ Who voted for Independence in 1966 (lol) (lol) (lol) ........... So it's OK for HER COUNTRY to vote for Independence .......But not the UK *-) ........ It seems to me Mrs Miller like yourself are the two faced anti democratic hypocrites here >:-) ......... But then again you are a Communist so I shouldn't be surprised :D ......... You're posting complete bunkum now. Try staying off the bottle if you're going to post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-04-02 3:31 PM That's another one gone >:-) ......... Another casualty of BluKip infiltration. Kippers failed to get a seat in HoC so infiltrate the Tory party to spread their far right extremism and orchestrate deselection of democratically elected MP's. And you spout about 'valuing democracy'. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 He has gone because he blatantly ignored democracy. Hopefully more like him will go down the same path. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 747 - 2019-04-02 4:27 PM He has gone because he blatantly ignored democracy. Hopefully more like him will go down the same path. ;-) Well, there you go. He seemed to me to be trying strenuously to uphold democracy, by arguing for what he believed would yield the best outcome for the greatest number. I don't see how that can be undemocratic; rather, it was the epitome of a democrat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 10:19 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 9:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 8:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 7:34 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 6:05 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 4:28 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 4:09 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 3:37 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 3:35 PM colin - 2019-04-01 2:46 PM First of the Traitors? IMO Grieve should be following the wishes of his constituents, as they voted remain he is a traitor if he backs Brexit. ;-) They voted Leave Colin but more importantly by an extremely narrow margin of just 570 out of 40755 votes, but that was almost three years ago and as we all know including Brexiteers (though they wouldn't ever admit it), many have changed their minds and come to their senses since seeing the huge damage Brexit has done to the country. Funny how I've only met Remoaners who have changed their minds :D ......... Even funnier that you're never able to back any of that up with anything credible isn't it? Seeing as you don't leave that old tub most days, how many Brit immigrants to Spain who went there to live (unlike you) have you asked? Please explain why those allowed a vote would vote to ruin their retired life they'd planned so long for in Spain. Tell me how they would benefit from voting for a country to exit the EU, a country they've already exited from, to live permanently in an EU country. Your confusing me with selfish expats who voted for themselves.....Not their country *-) ........ They aren't expats. They are immigrants who moved to live there for a better lifestyle hence the reason you couldn't answer the questions i put to you. And don't give me that bullcrap you voted for 'your country', because if genuinely so patriotic you'd remain in this country continually supporting its economy instead of running off to Spain half the year using every trick in the book you can find to overstay. Your rank hypocrisy is blatant and you've been continually boastful about it. Well if they're immigrants then they truly are selfish *-) ......... Of course they're migrants and how wanting to improve ones lifestyle legitimately could be deemed 'selfish' i've no idea. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though. Why should someone who has migrated from the UK have an vote on what happens in the UK?........ That's what seems more than a tad selfish to me *-) .......... Only those who have been non-resident UK for less than 15 years could vote. Approx 700,000 British immigrants living and working overseas were denied a vote. Others were the 3,400 Falkland islanders, 84,000 Isle of Man and 166,000 on Channel islands as they are crown dependancies. Would you say British immigrant residents of Gibraltar are 'selfish'? The Isle of Man is a self governing British Crown dependency and has never been part of the UK so how do you think they are entitled to have voted. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 6:24 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 4:27 PM He has gone because he blatantly ignored democracy. Hopefully more like him will go down the same path. ;-) Well, there you go. He seemed to me to be trying strenuously to uphold democracy, by arguing for what he believed would yield the best outcome for the greatest number. I don't see how that can be undemocratic; rather, it was the epitome of a democrat. You are probably right Brian ... he did what HE thought was best. Looks like he got that badly wrong. You have a strange way of looking at the democratic process. An MP does have leeway in his job ... except when there is a specific vote allowed for the plebs. His job is to represent his constituents votes in that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 teflon2 - 2019-04-02 7:16 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 10:19 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 9:48 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 8:35 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 7:34 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 6:05 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 4:28 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 4:09 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-01 3:37 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-01 3:35 PM colin - 2019-04-01 2:46 PM First of the Traitors? IMO Grieve should be following the wishes of his constituents, as they voted remain he is a traitor if he backs Brexit. ;-) They voted Leave Colin but more importantly by an extremely narrow margin of just 570 out of 40755 votes, but that was almost three years ago and as we all know including Brexiteers (though they wouldn't ever admit it), many have changed their minds and come to their senses since seeing the huge damage Brexit has done to the country. Funny how I've only met Remoaners who have changed their minds :D ......... Even funnier that you're never able to back any of that up with anything credible isn't it? Seeing as you don't leave that old tub most days, how many Brit immigrants to Spain who went there to live (unlike you) have you asked? Please explain why those allowed a vote would vote to ruin their retired life they'd planned so long for in Spain. Tell me how they would benefit from voting for a country to exit the EU, a country they've already exited from, to live permanently in an EU country. Your confusing me with selfish expats who voted for themselves.....Not their country *-) ........ They aren't expats. They are immigrants who moved to live there for a better lifestyle hence the reason you couldn't answer the questions i put to you. And don't give me that bullcrap you voted for 'your country', because if genuinely so patriotic you'd remain in this country continually supporting its economy instead of running off to Spain half the year using every trick in the book you can find to overstay. Your rank hypocrisy is blatant and you've been continually boastful about it. Well if they're immigrants then they truly are selfish *-) ......... Of course they're migrants and how wanting to improve ones lifestyle legitimately could be deemed 'selfish' i've no idea. I wouldn't expect you to understand that though. Why should someone who has migrated from the UK have an vote on what happens in the UK?........ That's what seems more than a tad selfish to me *-) .......... Only those who have been non-resident UK for less than 15 years could vote. Approx 700,000 British immigrants living and working overseas were denied a vote. Others were the 3,400 Falkland islanders, 84,000 Isle of Man and 166,000 on Channel islands as they are crown dependancies. Would you say British immigrant residents of Gibraltar are 'selfish'? The Isle of Man is a self governing British Crown dependency and has never been part of the UK so how do you think they are entitled to have voted. *-) Errm.....i know, i stated so in the post you quoted (see above where i've emboldened), apart from Falklands. I assumed most would understand the main point i was making which was, Only those who have been non-resident UK for less than 15 years could vote. Approx 700,000 British immigrants living and working overseas were denied a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 2, 2019 Share Posted April 2, 2019 747 - 2019-04-02 7:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 6:24 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 4:27 PM He has gone because he blatantly ignored democracy. Hopefully more like him will go down the same path. ;-) Well, there you go. He seemed to me to be trying strenuously to uphold democracy, by arguing for what he believed would yield the best outcome for the greatest number. I don't see how that can be undemocratic; rather, it was the epitome of a democrat. You are probably right Brian ... he did what HE thought was best. Looks like he got that badly wrong. You have a strange way of looking at the democratic process. An MP does have leeway in his job ... except when there is a specific vote allowed for the plebs. His job is to represent his constituents votes in that case. If that was the case there would be no party whip ensuring they're voting according to party policy which can, in many case, be contrary to the wishes of their constituents. Boles mentioned 'lack of compromise' in his short departure speech. There certainly hasn't been much of that from the outset so he was right about that. May's persistent intransigence hasn't helped one bit though i see now she's begged for help off Corbyn whose agreed to meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 8:34 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 7:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 6:24 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 4:27 PM He has gone because he blatantly ignored democracy. Hopefully more like him will go down the same path. ;-) Well, there you go. He seemed to me to be trying strenuously to uphold democracy, by arguing for what he believed would yield the best outcome for the greatest number. I don't see how that can be undemocratic; rather, it was the epitome of a democrat. You are probably right Brian ... he did what HE thought was best. Looks like he got that badly wrong. You have a strange way of looking at the democratic process. An MP does have leeway in his job ... except when there is a specific vote allowed for the plebs. His job is to represent his constituents votes in that case. If that was the case there would be no party whip ensuring they're voting according to party policy which can, in many case, be contrary to the wishes of their constituents. Boles mentioned 'lack of compromise' in his short departure speech. There certainly hasn't been much of that from the outset so he was right about that. May's persistent intransigence hasn't helped one bit though i see now she's begged for help off Corbyn whose agreed to meet. Party policy for Both Labour and the Tories at the last election was to LEAVE THE EU *-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-04-03 8:39 AM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 8:34 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 7:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 6:24 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 4:27 PM He has gone because he blatantly ignored democracy. Hopefully more like him will go down the same path. ;-) Well, there you go. He seemed to me to be trying strenuously to uphold democracy, by arguing for what he believed would yield the best outcome for the greatest number. I don't see how that can be undemocratic; rather, it was the epitome of a democrat. You are probably right Brian ... he did what HE thought was best. Looks like he got that badly wrong. You have a strange way of looking at the democratic process. An MP does have leeway in his job ... except when there is a specific vote allowed for the plebs. His job is to represent his constituents votes in that case. If that was the case there would be no party whip ensuring they're voting according to party policy which can, in many case, be contrary to the wishes of their constituents. Boles mentioned 'lack of compromise' in his short departure speech. There certainly hasn't been much of that from the outset so he was right about that. May's persistent intransigence hasn't helped one bit though i see now she's begged for help off Corbyn whose agreed to meet. Party policy for Both Labour and the Tories at the last election was to LEAVE THE EU *-) ........ Correct young man. And indicative votes have been free votes and not subject to the whip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-04-03 8:39 AM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 8:34 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 7:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 6:24 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 4:27 PM He has gone because he blatantly ignored democracy. Hopefully more like him will go down the same path. ;-) Well, there you go. He seemed to me to be trying strenuously to uphold democracy, by arguing for what he believed would yield the best outcome for the greatest number. I don't see how that can be undemocratic; rather, it was the epitome of a democrat. You are probably right Brian ... he did what HE thought was best. Looks like he got that badly wrong. You have a strange way of looking at the democratic process. An MP does have leeway in his job ... except when there is a specific vote allowed for the plebs. His job is to represent his constituents votes in that case. If that was the case there would be no party whip ensuring they're voting according to party policy which can, in many case, be contrary to the wishes of their constituents. Boles mentioned 'lack of compromise' in his short departure speech. There certainly hasn't been much of that from the outset so he was right about that. May's persistent intransigence hasn't helped one bit though i see now she's begged for help off Corbyn whose agreed to meet. Party policy for Both Labour and the Tories at the last election was to LEAVE THE EU *-) ........ Usually when people leave somewhere, their house, their town, their workplace etc they have a destination they are going to. You didn't. You had no exit strategy and no destination plan. It was never going to be as simple as the analogies i've just used but you were led to believe it would be. https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy And do STOP SHOUTING all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-03 2:21 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-03 8:39 AM Bulletguy - 2019-04-02 8:34 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 7:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 6:24 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 4:27 PM He has gone because he blatantly ignored democracy. Hopefully more like him will go down the same path. ;-) Well, there you go. He seemed to me to be trying strenuously to uphold democracy, by arguing for what he believed would yield the best outcome for the greatest number. I don't see how that can be undemocratic; rather, it was the epitome of a democrat. You are probably right Brian ... he did what HE thought was best. Looks like he got that badly wrong. You have a strange way of looking at the democratic process. An MP does have leeway in his job ... except when there is a specific vote allowed for the plebs. His job is to represent his constituents votes in that case. If that was the case there would be no party whip ensuring they're voting according to party policy which can, in many case, be contrary to the wishes of their constituents. Boles mentioned 'lack of compromise' in his short departure speech. There certainly hasn't been much of that from the outset so he was right about that. May's persistent intransigence hasn't helped one bit though i see now she's begged for help off Corbyn whose agreed to meet. Party policy for Both Labour and the Tories at the last election was to LEAVE THE EU *-) ........ Usually when people leave somewhere, their house, their town, their workplace etc they have a destination they are going to. You didn't. You had no exit strategy and no destination plan. It was never going to be as simple as the analogies i've just used but you were led to believe it would be. https://www.buzzfeed.com/patricksmith/nobody-said-it-was-easy And do STOP SHOUTING all the time. Who's SHOUTING? :-S ....... You just use the forums watchamercallit to highlight your garbage *-) ....... Where as I prefer capitals ;-) ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Only those who have been non-resident UK for less than 15 years could vote. Approx 700,000 British immigrants living and working overseas were denied a vote. Others were the 3,400 Falkland islanders, 84,000 Isle of Man and 166,000 on Channel islands as they are crown dependancies. Would you say British immigrant residents of Gibraltar are 'selfish'? The Isle of Man is a self governing British Crown dependency and has never been part of the UK so how do you think they are entitled to have voted. *-) Errm.....i know, i stated so in the post you quoted (see above where i've emboldened), apart from Falklands. I assumed most would understand the main point i was making which was, Only those who have been non-resident UK for less than 15 years could vote. Approx 700,000 British immigrants living and working overseas were denied a vote. You made a claim that 84,000 Isle of man residents were denied a vote but as I posted the Isle of Man is not nor has ever been part of the UK neither is it part of the EU so I repeat how do you believe that the IoM residents were entitled to or required a vote ?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 teflon2 - 2019-04-04 3:23 PM You made a claim that 84,000 Isle of man residents were denied a vote but as I posted the Isle of Man is not nor has ever been part of the UK neither is it part of the EU so I repeat how do you believe that the IoM residents were entitled to or required a vote ?. People i said were denied a vote was the 700,000 (figure was published at the time) British immigrants living and working overseas. Only those who had been non-resident for less than 15 years could vote. I thought my reply to your post yesterday was clear in that i'd already stated in my post you quoted, the IoM and Channel islands were crown dependencies. I think you're labouring a point which was never there and even emboldened the key words in my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-04 3:46 PM teflon2 - 2019-04-04 3:23 PM You made a claim that 84,000 Isle of man residents were denied a vote but as I posted the Isle of Man is not nor has ever been part of the UK neither is it part of the EU so I repeat how do you believe that the IoM residents were entitled to or required a vote ?. People i said were denied a vote was the 700,000 (figure was published at the time) British immigrants living and working overseas. Only those who had been non-resident for less than 15 years could vote. I thought my reply to your post yesterday was clear in that i'd already stated in my post you quoted, the IoM and Channel islands were crown dependencies. I think you're labouring a point which was never there and even emboldened the key words in my post. So even if your mythical 700,000 voted to Remain ;-) .......... You'd still have lost would you not? >:-) ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 pelmetman - 2019-04-04 5:22 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-04 3:46 PM teflon2 - 2019-04-04 3:23 PM You made a claim that 84,000 Isle of man residents were denied a vote but as I posted the Isle of Man is not nor has ever been part of the UK neither is it part of the EU so I repeat how do you believe that the IoM residents were entitled to or required a vote ?. People i said were denied a vote was the 700,000 (figure was published at the time) British immigrants living and working overseas. Only those who had been non-resident for less than 15 years could vote. I thought my reply to your post yesterday was clear in that i'd already stated in my post you quoted, the IoM and Channel islands were crown dependencies. I think you're labouring a point which was never there and even emboldened the key words in my post. So even if your mythical 700,000 voted to Remain ;-) .......... You'd still have lost would you not? >:-) ........ Depends on which figure you want. I was being generous to Brexiters by quoting the lowest published figure of 700,000. Other media had it "up to 3 million" so which one do you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 747 - 2019-04-02 7:36 PM Brian Kirby - 2019-04-02 6:24 PM 747 - 2019-04-02 4:27 PM He has gone because he blatantly ignored democracy. Hopefully more like him will go down the same path. ;-) Well, there you go. He seemed to me to be trying strenuously to uphold democracy, by arguing for what he believed would yield the best outcome for the greatest number. I don't see how that can be undemocratic; rather, it was the epitome of a democrat. You are probably right Brian ... he did what HE thought was best. Looks like he got that badly wrong. You have a strange way of looking at the democratic process. An MP does have leeway in his job ... except when there is a specific vote allowed for the plebs. His job is to represent his constituents votes in that case. I don't think it is strange, I think it is how our system of representative democracy - which leads to our laws - is supposed to work. Theoretically, the first duty of an MP is to their constituents (i.e. all of them, not just those who voted for them), and their second duty is to the country (i.e. the whole country, not just those supporting their party. Their party then demands loyalty to their policies/manifesto, which is a matter between the MP and the party. This leaves MPs with a duty to constituents/country that transcends party considerations or the outcomes of referendums. They are not delegates elected to carry out the wishes of those who elected them. We have no established tradition of direct democracy through referendums, and referendums have no actual legal status under our constitution, while MPs and parliament are the result of several hundred years of constitutional evolution. So, where an MP, after proper consideration of the best interests of his constituency and his country, concludes that complying with the result of a referendum would run counter to their interests, he is duty bound to act against the referendum result. Of course, there are many more voters than MPs, but that does not, in and of itself, make the voters right - even though they may present a clear majority. After all, the MPs are supported by researchers, have access to the civil service, and can enlist advice from any or all experts from pretty much anywhere around the world, which the average Joe cannot, so they should be expected to be better informed than the average Joe, whoever that Joe might be. Needless to say they do not all do as they should, but the present chaos in Westminster is, IMO, the result of a very late realisation on the part of many MPs that the referendum was not such a smart idea after all. That it was ill considered (even though they voted for it), resulted in a damaging verdict they had not planned on (even though it was facilitated by the question they asked), that the submission of the UK notification under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty was grossly premature (even though they voted for it), and that the so-called "Irish backstop" was in inevitable consequence of the conflicting nature of the Ireland/NI border itself, the Belfast Agreement, the workings of the bi-lateral UK/Ireland (plus Isle of Man and Channel Islands) Common Travel Area, and the requirements of the Treaty of Rome for border security. That realisation seems to me to have slowly, but increasingly, dawned on a growing number of MPs who are now acutely embarrassed that they acquiesced in promoting, in the name of democracy, a course of action that, if followed through, would be against the interests both of their constituents and of the UK as a whole. In fact, the exact opposite of what they were elected to do. So, they seem to me now to be trying to get out of the bind that have voted themselves (and us) into. They are trying to reassert representative democracy over direct democracy, because the result of direct democracy seems so unlikely to serve the best interests of their constituents and country. What I think we are seeing is the proper (though belated) working of Parliament in the aftermath of a disastrous aberration of its own making. If they succeed no one gets hurt (though several million people will be disappointed and angry), but if they fail the whole population (saving a few profiteers) will get hurt financially and, when they begin to experience that hurt, I expect the resulting explosion of anger to be far greater and more destructive than that of the thwarted Brexiters could ever have been. What is the MP to do? Knowingly inflict damage on those he encouraged to vote for what, in reality, was an illusion, or seek ways of averting the damage while trying to comply with at least the spirit of the referendum vote. It can't be easy, but I think calling them traitors etc. is a travesty when what they are doing is their best to protect the overall interests of their country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I totally disagree with what you say Brian but it's pointless arguing. I would find it a complete waste of time in your case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Bulletguy - 2019-04-04 5:53 PM pelmetman - 2019-04-04 5:22 PM Bulletguy - 2019-04-04 3:46 PM teflon2 - 2019-04-04 3:23 PM You made a claim that 84,000 Isle of man residents were denied a vote but as I posted the Isle of Man is not nor has ever been part of the UK neither is it part of the EU so I repeat how do you believe that the IoM residents were entitled to or required a vote ?. People i said were denied a vote was the 700,000 (figure was published at the time) British immigrants living and working overseas. Only those who had been non-resident for less than 15 years could vote. I thought my reply to your post yesterday was clear in that i'd already stated in my post you quoted, the IoM and Channel islands were crown dependencies. I think you're labouring a point which was never there and even emboldened the key words in my post. So even if your mythical 700,000 voted to Remain ;-) .......... You'd still have lost would you not? >:-) ........ Depends on which figure you want. I was being generous to Brexiters by quoting the lowest published figure of 700,000. Other media had it "up to 3 million" so which one do you want? You mean other Remoaner propaganda media sites had up to 3 million......using Mzz Abbott's calculator no doubt :D ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 747 - 2019-04-04 8:20 PM I totally disagree with what you say Brian but it's pointless arguing. I would find it a complete waste of time in your case. Well, there you go. I never find informed debate a waste of time, it provides an opportunity to learn. Still, it would be interesting to know which of my various points you disagree with, as I believe most of it is reasonably factual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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