Carrying a 3rd propane tank

[JeffersonCampervan]

Carrying a 3rd propane tank for 5 weeks this winter in Greece. Likely heavy furnace use.2001 Hymer B654,Dutch registration,Dutch propane tanks. The last 2 winters we have travelled to Morocco and carried a 3rd tank in the garage, lying on its side. I've since read that propane tanks should only be transported upright in a well ventilated area. Those of you who have carried extra tanks, what precautions do you take?

[StuartO]

I assume you are referring the what are usually called gas bottles or cylinders, rather than tanks, this term being more usually applied to underslung, permanently fitted lpg containers.

 

As I understand you are correct in thinking extra gas bottles should only be carried vertically and if inside a compartment, it should have floor level opening to allow any of the gas which leaks from the bottle to escape safely. The requirement for vertical transportation may relate to what would happen in a vehicle crash involving a fire, when the lpg bottle would burst under pressure by the valve blowing out - upwards being a safer direction for this to happen. That assumes of course that the MH remains upright in the crash. There may be other reasons to transport vertically.

 

I’m sure lots of motorhomers will have carried an extra bottle while touring (not in the proper gas locker) and I’ve never heard of any serious incident. But it’s clearly not ideal to just put one into any old locker, especially on its side. Wouldn’t it be safer (and cheaper if you are going to use a lot of lpg) to install refillable gas bottles, then you could just refill them as necessary?

[JeffersonCampervan]

this is my 6th camper, but being Canadian, all 5 of my prior campers, even the small Westfalias, had fixed refillable tanks. Carrying around removable non-refillable tanks is counterintuitive to me. For instance, all of my fixed tanks were installed "on their side", not ”upright"

 

For the amount we fly over to Europe and travel in the winter, the cost of retrofitting a fixed tank installation doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

Perhaps a better solution for us would be, as you note, a removable refillable. Still not cost effective given our usage, but perhaps safer.

[colin]

I'm not sure why a cylinder which is being transported needs to be upright, if I pick one up in the car it's always on side and wedged in position.

As for you fixed tanks, the gas take off is on the top, which is in effect the same as having a non fixed cylinder upright.

[Robinhood]

The general advice is to carry them upright, secured and in a well-ventilated area.

 

The secured bit explains itself. Carrying them upright ensures the valve is always in the gaseous, rather than liquid area (Your previous fixed tanks would have had the take-off/valve on the upper surface, though they are oriented differently, for exactly the same reason). An escape of liquid, rather than vapourised LPG can be quite "spectacular".

 

In reality, the above is largely aimed at such bottles that carry a pressure relief valve, and designed to keep this valve in the gaseous area. I would hazard a guess that the Dutch bottles you use have only the take-off valve, which is manually operated, and no pressure relief valve.

 

Whilst I would certainly prefer to carry bottles in a well ventilated area, I would suggest that your method of carrying the spare bottle, though not the safest, is probably not the greatest risk either, provided; a) the take-off valve is firmly closed, and b) the area in which it is carried is checked regularly for the smell of gas.

 

(I did once have a Calor bottle with a pinhole leak, and that wouldn't have been pleasant, so give the valve and bottle a good check over beforehand).

[JeffersonCampervan]

Robinhood - 2019-10-06 11:33 AMThe general advice is to carry them upright, secured and in a well-ventilated area.The secured bit explains itself. Carrying them upright ensures the valve is always in the gaseous, rather than liquid area (Your previous fixed tanks would have had the take-off/valve on the upper surface, though they are oriented differently, for exactly the same reason). An escape of liquid, rather than vapourised LPG can be quite "spectacular".In reality, the above is largely aimed at such bottles that carry a pressure relief valve, and designed to keep this valve in the gaseous area. I would hazard a guess that the Dutch bottles you use have only the take-off valve, which is manually operated, and no pressure relief valve.Whilst I would certainly prefer to carry bottles in a well ventilated area, I would suggest that your method of carrying the spare bottle, though not the safest, is probably not the greatest risk either, provided; a) the take-off valve is firmly closed, and b) the area in which it is carried is checked regularly for the smell of gas. (I did once have a Calor bottle with a pinhole leak, and that wouldn't have been pleasant, so give the valve and bottle a good check over beforehand).

Thanks everyone- Yes, my Dutch bottles do not have a pressure relief valve . Always firmly closed and I can strap it in upright. The French bed is on a hinged platform directly above the garage (that doubles as interior access to the garage, and is not sealed tight at all), so between that and multiple opening of the garage every day, I think we would smell any incipient leak.

[Hans]

Any recipient of butane or propane is filled to 80 percent liquid. Above it is gas. And the place take off by a gas regulator not in liquid phase ... i hate these bottle gas lockers, have a nice underslung gas tank fitted.

[Conrad]

You say price is the reason for not getting refillable bottles, but if you are having to buy a third or even the second one, you will be coming close to the cost of a refillable, especially Safefill, although my choice was GasIt. Take into account lower cost of LPG over exchange bottles plus the money you should get back by returning the ones you have, and you're about there. Factor in dodgy safety of carrying a bottle in the garage, extra weight (less mpg), loss of storage space and - well I know what I'd do!

[JeffersonCampervan]

Conrad - 2019-10-06 12:57 PM You say price is the reason for not getting refillable bottles, but if you are having to buy a third or even the second one, you will be coming close to the cost of a refillable, especially Safefill, although my choice was GasIt. Take into account lower cost of LPG over exchange bottles plus the money you should get back by returning the ones you have, and you're about there. Factor in dodgy safety of carrying a bottle in the garage, extra weight (less mpg), loss of storage space and - well I know what I'd do!

Good points - thanks. In NL, you give a refundable deposit for the bottle itself, you don't buy it, but swap it out or return it. When I took 3 to Morocco, I returned the 3rd and was refunded my €35 deposit. A refillable would run €170 - € 300.

I have weighed the cost and convenience factors of a refillable (the brand options are different on the continent) and am as yet undecided. For our usage, I only need one 3rd bottle once per year on our winter trip. From a purely cost point of view, it doesn't compute for our needs. (YMMV of course). We doubt we'll do more than 3 winter trips going forward.

Other considerations re. a refillable are the reluctance of at least some LPG stations to allow filling, the uncertain mix of butane/propane and the availability of filling points, especially in winter destinations like Greece and Morocco. ( it baffles me that regular bottles can't be filled easily by trained personnel, since over here in Canada, non-80%-cutoff bottles can be filled by an attendant at numerous manned propane stations, where they weigh prior to filling. About €10 per fill. Even Costco has such a station. We have swap programs, but in tandem with refill stations.

[spirou]

Why not just refill the bottles?

[JeffersonCampervan]

spirou - 2019-10-06 3:56 PMWhy not just refill the bottles?

 

Generally not considered safe?

[spirou]

I didn't mean you personally, however, having watched the process at my local refill station countless times, anyone who can use a wrench and subtract the weight of the empty bottle from the total, is a suitable candidate for the job.

 

Don't know how hard it is to find one in Greece but I'm pretty sure that even in rare cases where they refuse to do it right there and then (Finland was such a case as they didn't have the correct valve adapter), you could probably get your tank back the next day. Having been in Greek mountains in winter I know they get cold, but nowhere near as cold as the Alps or Scandinavia where I could easily last a week on one bottle, and I stretched it to 12 days in Norway. We did a 2 week skiing tour of Bulgarian/Greek/Macedonian mountains (with a 10 month old baby) and never needed the second bottle. Obviously it depends on many factors but I really don't see why you'd carry 3.

[Keithl]

JeffersonCampervan - 2019-10-06 9:19 PM

 

spirou - 2019-10-06 3:56 PMWhy not just refill the bottles?

 

Generally not considered safe?

 

And neither is transporting cylinders whilst lying down.

 

Advice from Calor is as follows "Load gas bottles upright, with the valve at the top"

 

https://www.calor.co.uk/gas-bottles/advice/transporting

 

And the British Compressed Gases Association posts the DfT leaflet 'GUIDANCE FOR THE CARRIAGE OF GAS CYLINDERS ON VEHICLES' and recommends "Certain cylinders should only be carried and restrained in a vertical position, for example, liquefied gases, such as LPG. This action will ensure the valves are uppermost allowing the relief valve to connect with the vapour space inside the cylinder. "

 

http://www.bcga.co.uk/assets/publications/GN27.pdf

 

So in short cylinders must be upright.

 

Keith.

[JeffersonCampervan]

Keithl - 2019-10-06 4:55 PM

JeffersonCampervan - 2019-10-06 9:19 PM

spirou - 2019-10-06 3:56 PMWhy not just refill the bottles?

Generally not considered safe?

And neither is transporting cylinders whilst lying down.Advice from Calor is as follows "Load gas bottles upright, with the valve at the top"https://www.calor.co.uk/gas-bottles/advice/transportingAnd the British Compressed Gases Association posts the DfT leaflet 'GUIDANCE FOR THE CARRIAGE OF GAS CYLINDERS ON VEHICLES' and recommends "Certain cylinders should only be carried and restrained in a vertical position, for example, liquefied gases, such as LPG. This action will ensure the valves are uppermost allowing the relief valve to connect with the vapour space inside the cylinder. "http://www.bcga.co.uk/assets/publications/GN27.pdfSo in short cylinders must be upright.Keith.

Thanks again everyone.

 

Keith - it's worth stressing this point as often as possible; as for myself, though, as I noted several posts above, I can strap it in upright in the garage - and if I take a 3rd bottle with me, I will do so.

 

Spirou - interesting points. I  may just fill the non-refillable, using the weight to litre calculation, ensuring it's totally empty and filling to 70% to be on the safe side. Or I might spring for a 80% refillable for peace of mind. Or I might carry 3. I'm still where I started. Interesting though that no one has said that they carry a 3rd and how they do it. I thought that would be more common.

[Robinhood]

Keithl - 2019-10-06 9:55 PM

 

http://www.bcga.co.uk/assets/publications/GN27.pdf

 

So in short cylinders must be upright.

 

Keith.

 

...the must is rather over-egging it.

 

As the document sets out - "This information is also valid when carrying small quantities of gas cylinders for personal, domestic, leisure or sporting use, but is not mandatory." (It is aimed largely at bulk, commercial transport).

 

Reading the full document (which I did, before I posted as above) gives you an insight as to why, and also why this is (largely) not entirely relevant to a single, normal bottle.

 

As I also posted, the advice to carry securely is imperative, and I would also prefer to carry in a ventilated compartment, though without a pressure relief valve, and with a firmly closed bottle, I'd be reasonably happy.

 

(BTW, I use refillables ;-) )

 

[kevina]

I carry a third bottle in the garage every winter during our two month skiing trip. The gas locker has one refillable and one local bottle, the third bottle is also local. In cold weather we can empty an 11kg bottle in 4 days, the third bottle lengthens the period of time we can stay up high, getting autogas usually involves at least an hours drive down a mountain and back up so is only undertaken when en route and in those temperatures the butane content can become a problem.

 

I have a 60 litre plastic drum like this: https://amzn.to/2Me9cyY

 

French, German, Swiss and Italian bottles all fit; sorry but I don't know about Dutch. I have a few pieces of semi rigid foam which pack it out, the drum is then secured on the garage more securely than the locker bottles. Finally, there is an additional lpg sticker on the garage door.

M

[ColinM50]

Sorry JC, I just don't get why you wouldn't have your existing cylinders refilled. Any marina has the capability or what do boaters do? In the highly unlikely event that the Greek connector is different to the standard Euro one's or Dutch one's fitted to your m/h, just buy an adaptor in NL and take it with you just in case. There's all sorts of adaptors on Google and if you're nervous about filling the cylinder yourself, (as would I) I'd be very surprised if some enterprising local can't get it done for you for a few drachma - ooops I mean Euros.

 

Try sending an email to caktanks, www.caktanks.co.uk and tell them what you want and I bet they'll offer some help; sales@caktanks.co.uk . They may well tell you it's "illegal" in UK to refill Calor Gas cylinders, but point out that this is not a Calor cylinder, it's Dutch

[vindiboy]

Often carried spare gas bottles in my previous van Hymer B694 as I had a large Garage and payload,and spent many months wandering Europe and Morocco, I had bottles for Spain, Germany France ect and regulators aboard, I fitted a Floor vent in the garage area to allow any escape of gas as it falls to ground as it is heavier than air and the bottles were secured by straps , upright, the upright bit

the original poster refers to is for gas bottles in use as that is the position they must be in to prevent liquid gas escape into appliances, Fork lift trucks etc.powered by LPG can have the bottles horizontally fitted as they have a liquid gas take off as that is how they run.

 

I now have fitted refillable bottles in my now van,2 x 11kgs. should have fitted them years ago, but hey ho, hindsight is great, no more extra bottles aboard and the only extra need is the adaptors for foreign filling Simples.

[vindiboy]

http://s358.photobucket.com/user/vindiboy1/library/GAS This is my DIY gas system one bottle running and one sitting ready and available for running a Barbi or patio heater /awning heater as required, I did not want or fit change over valves , fitting is so easy , and should have done it years ago.

[JeffersonCampervan]

Thanks again. I have a complete set of adapters. Prior to the Hymer I had shipped over my Winnebago ( had it in Europe for 8 years) and regularly filled its fixed tank myself.

[JeffersonCampervan]

To add some context: beyond the issues with refilling and transporting - the notion of driving around with what are essentially loosely fastened barbecue tanks makes me uneasy, but that uneasiness stems from my experience here in North America, where all motorhomes have fixed tanks with gauges, metal connections and a cut off at 80%.

[skaman]

I have 2 refillable bottles but am considering getting one of the cheap Chinese diesel heaters fitted before going to the Alps for a few weeks to extend the gas usage , ie cooking etc.

Opinions please, good idea or not ?

[vindiboy]

skaman - 2019-10-07 3:58 PM

 

I have 2 refillable bottles but am considering getting one of the cheap Chinese diesel heaters fitted before going to the Alps for a few weeks to extend the gas usage , ie cooking etc.

Opinions please, good idea or not ?

Cheap and Chinese , that bodes well I must say.

[skaman]

Agree , but not all the stuff coming out of China is rubbish.

Just thought that as a back up it would be a better alternative to carrying a 3rd gas bottle.

[spirou]

No experience but I read they tend to be loud.