Weights and plating the new van.

[Robinhood]

I don't think it will carry through to the V5C. It hasn't done on mine. What you do want to make sure, however, is that the body type on the V55C ends up as "Motor Caravan". (which is probably item 8 on your form, though I've not been through the process)

 

The homologation class should be on the final CoC (Certificate of Conformity - that issued by La Strada). My Hymer CoC actually shows M1 - which is probably the conventional way of documenting it, even though the category is a special subset (M1sp). M1 denotes it's a "Passenger Vehicle" and not the Goods Vehicle the original base van was homolgated as by Fiat (probably N2).

[slowdriver]

Brian Kirby - 2019-11-09 3:40 PM

 

You ask what folk would do. So here goes! :-)

 

As things stand, you can legally drive the van at 4.0 tonnes.

 

So, I think I would import the van at that weight and, before you load it, make sure the fuel tank is brimmed and all other reservoirs (fresh water, waste tank, toilet cassette, and gas locker) are empty, and take it to a weighbridge and get it weighed in that state, at the same time getting the individual axle weights, and making sure to obtain the weighbridge ticket showing all those figures.

 

I say this because it looks too heavy from the figure you have quoted and, even after you've got it, the basis of La Strada's figure may not be clear. By doing as above, you will have established (and have a record of) the base line for your van. This will also serve to establish whether its unladen weight exceeds 3,050kg, when the reduced UK speed limits would apply. (If it does, you may need to remove everything loose and run the fuel tank right down, so as to more closely approximate to the legal definition of "unladen", as you may be a bit tight on this measure, which will apply whatever its MAM).

 

Well the good news is that the van is in the UK and some lightning footwork by DVLA means I now have the V5C and plates. Further to this discussion I now intend to take the van to a weigh-bridge tomorrow and do as suggested and get it weighed empty, (no fresh or waste water and empty toilet cassette and gas locker, no driver). I am not sure what this weight is officially called but "unladen weight" seems logical. I have two questions:

 

1) Why if I want to establish the minimum unladen weight of the vehicle would I "brim the tank" as suggested above, rather than leave it, say, 90% empty given that the DVLA definition of " unladen weight" excludes the weight of fuel.

Is it because by doing so I would establish the practical payload I could add assuming I had a full tank, was stopped and still wanted to be legal?

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

 

2) How does this "unladen" weight relate to relate to the weights given on the V5C which are:

Revenue weight: 4000kg

Mass in service: 3003 - Is that the same as unladen weight?

 

(FYI , I'm not sure if it's relevant but the D.5. Body type is Motor caravan, the Taxation Class is Private HGV, the Vehicle category is M1.)

 

The DVLA web page above also defines the "Maximum authorised mass" as follows "the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.

This is also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight."

On the V5C I assume this equates to the "Revenue weight "?

 

Lastly I'd be interested if anyone can explain why they define a series of terms on their web page that do not appear upon the V5C and yet don't explain the terms that do!

 

[colin]

You would fill the tank because it is then easy to deduct the weight of a known volume of fuel, but you appear to already have a MIRO which is 3003kg if that is also on the CoC, although this isn't the 'unladen' weight it proves that the 'unladen' weight is below 3050kg so at higher UK speed limits.

[Derek Uzzell]

slowdriver - 2020-07-25 7:49 PM

 

...Lastly I'd be interested if anyone can explain why they define a series of terms on their web page that do not appear upon the V5C and yet don't explain the terms that do!

 

As I’ve emphasised in the past, it needs to be appreciated that the UK’s vehicle registration system is an artificial construct and fluid, and that motor caravans have always sat uncomfortably within it. You can choose to focus on ultra-fine detail or just concentrate on what will really affect you as far as your La Strada is concerned.

 

For an extended list of vehicle weight definitions

 

https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/vehicle-weights-and-weight-limits/employer-factsheet-vehicle-weight-definitions?product=143

[slowdriver]

Derek Uzzell - 2020-07-26 8:23 AM

 

slowdriver - 2020-07-25 7:49 PM

 

...Lastly I'd be interested if anyone can explain why they define a series of terms on their web page that do not appear upon the V5C and yet don't explain the terms that do!

 

As I’ve emphasised in the past, it needs to be appreciated that the UK’s vehicle registration system is an artificial construct and fluid, and that motor caravans have always sat uncomfortably within it. You can choose to focus on ultra-fine detail or just concentrate on what will really affect you as far as your La Strada is concerned.

 

For an extended list of vehicle weight definitions

 

https://app.croneri.co.uk/topics/vehicle-weights-and-weight-limits/employer-factsheet-vehicle-weight-definitions?product=143

 

 

I do appreciate that the UK's registration system is an artificial construct and fluid, and that it was not designed with motor caravans in mind. However, the page I cited was the DVLA's general page on weights

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

and the discrepancy between the terms defined there and the terms used on the V5C applies to all vehicles that are registered using the V5C not just to motor caravans. So the discrepancy still seems unhelpful. Why would you define on that page a set of terms that are not relevant to what I assume is the most common DVLA document the public encounter? I'll take it up separately with DVLA.

 

More to the point I'm still missing an answer to these two questions.

Mass in service: 3003 - Is that the same as unladen weight?

 

Colin says not and that but did not clarify the difference between MIRO and Unladen Weight. More importantly he indicates that since my V5C (and the La Strada CoC) show 3003kg this proves that the unladen' weight is below 3050kg, and that, if I understand correctly therefore, I am not subject to additional speed restrictions in the UK. (I don't know what those are but I can check that out separately. All of which still lives me in the dark as to what the definitional difference is between MIRO and Unladen weight?

 

Secondly is the Revenue Weight (in my case 4000kg) the same as "Maximum authorised mass" (also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight.)?

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

slowdriver - 2020-07-25 7:49 PM………………………………...Further to this discussion I now intend to take the van to a weigh-bridge tomorrow and do as suggested and get it weighed empty, (no fresh or waste water and empty toilet cassette and gas locker, no driver). I am not sure what this weight is officially called but "unladen weight" seems logical. I have two questions:

 

1) Why if I want to establish the minimum unladen weight of the vehicle would I "brim the tank" as suggested above, rather than leave it, say, 90% empty given that the DVLA definition of " unladen weight" excludes the weight of fuel.

Is it because by doing so I would establish the practical payload I could add assuming I had a full tank, was stopped and still wanted to be legal?

 

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

 

2) How does this "unladen" weight relate to relate to the weights given on the V5C which are:

Revenue weight: 4000kg

Mass in service: 3003 - Is that the same as unladen weight?

 

(FYI , I'm not sure if it's relevant but the D.5. Body type is Motor caravan, the Taxation Class is Private HGV, the Vehicle category is M1.)

 

The DVLA web page above also defines the "Maximum authorised mass" as follows "the weight of a vehicle or trailer including the maximum load that can be carried safely when it’s being used on the road.

This is also known as gross vehicle weight (GVW) or permissible maximum weight."

On the V5C I assume this equates to the "Revenue weight "?...……….…………...

Firstly - well done!

 

1) My suggestion to weigh the van with its tank full is, as Colin suggests, because the legal definition of "unladen" excludes fuel, coolant, and loose tools (i.e. jack and associated tools plus, I have seen argued, the spare wheel). In practical terms, it is not possible to drive it to a weighbridge in a fully "unladen" state, and for use as a motorhome it would ordinarily carry it's spare wheel (or "fix and go" kit), jack and tools, plus, obviously fuel and coolant - the significant variable being the fuel. The government website you quoted is a bit "light" in its definition.

 

The following, from a different government website, is rather more helpful: "Unladen weight - the weight of a vehicle inclusive of the body and all parts which are ordinarily used with the vehicle when working on a road. Unladen weight does not include the weight of water or fuel used for the propulsion of the vehicle, or of loose tools and loose equipment."

 

The practical significance of its unladen weight is solely in establishing whether it weighs in excess of 3,050kg - because if heavier it will be subject to the lower commercial vehicle speed limits applicable in UK. So, if you have a weighbridge "ticket" (bearing the date of weighing and the vehicle registration number) that shows your vehicle weight at less than 3,050kg, you can, if challenged over speed, demonstrate that you are entitled to drive at the same speeds as cars, and are not restricted to the lower limits.

 

Also, if the fuel tank is full when it is weighed, as the weight of the fuel does not count against unladen weight, in the unlikely event that your van weight is borderline legal when weighed with a full tank, you have a "factor of safety" on your side. (I also weigh with jack, spare wheel etc. on board for the same reason.) Also, in this condition the van is in a near a "ready to work" weight as possible, as a basis for calculating its actual payload, as MIRO only gives a rough guide to payload, and is not relevant to either speed limits or MAM.

 

2) "Mass in service" is a more precisely defined equivalent of MIRO, where the inclusion of a 75kg driver is specified. Quoted MIROs may, or may not, include the 75kg driver, depending on the manufacturer. When push comes to shove neither term is that helpful, IMO. They are only intended as a guide, as few drivers weigh exactly 75kg.

 

GVW = MAM = Revenue weight. It can be checked on the VIN plane attached to the van. If more than one plate (likely), it will be the La Strada plate that rules. This should be the number (in kg) directly below the VIN - in your case, from what you have said, this should be 4,000kg.

[slowdriver]

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-26 9:34 AM

 

Firstly - well done!

 

1) My suggestion to weigh the van with its tank full is, as Colin suggests, because the legal definition of "unladen" excludes fuel, coolant, and loose tools (i.e. jack and associated tools plus, I have seen argued, the spare wheel). In practical terms, it is not possible to drive it to a weighbridge in a fully "unladen" state, and for use as a motorhome it would ordinarily carry it's spare wheel (or "fix and go" kit), jack and tools, plus, obviously fuel and coolant - the significant variable being the fuel. The government website you quoted is a bit "light" in its definition.

 

The following, from a different government website, is rather more helpful: "Unladen weight - the weight of a vehicle inclusive of the body and all parts which are ordinarily used with the vehicle when working on a road. Unladen weight does not include the weight of water or fuel used for the propulsion of the vehicle, or of loose tools and loose equipment."

 

The practical significance of its unladen weight is solely in establishing whether it weighs in excess of 3,050kg - because if heavier it will be subject to the lower commercial vehicle speed limits applicable in UK. So, if you have a weighbridge "ticket" (bearing the date of weighing and the vehicle registration number) that shows your vehicle weight at less than 3,050kg, you can, if challenged over speed, demonstrate that you are entitled to drive at the same speeds as cars, and are not restricted to the lower limits.

 

Also, if the fuel tank is full when it is weighed, as the weight of the fuel does not count against unladen weight, in the unlikely event that your van weight is borderline legal when weighed with a full tank, you have a "factor of safety" on your side. (I also weigh with jack, spare wheel etc. on board for the same reason.) Also, in this condition the van is in a near a "ready to work" weight as possible, as a basis for calculating its actual payload, as MIRO only gives a rough guide to payload, and is not relevant to either speed limits or MAM.

 

2) "Mass in service" is a more precisely defined equivalent of MIRO, where the inclusion of a 75kg driver is specified. Quoted MIROs may, or may not, include the 75kg driver, depending on the manufacturer. When push comes to shove neither term is that helpful, IMO. They are only intended as a guide, as few drivers weigh exactly 75kg.

 

GVW = MAM = Revenue weight. It can be checked on the VIN plane attached to the van. If more than one plate (likely), it will be the La Strada plate that rules. This should be the number (in kg) directly below the VIN - in your case, from what you have said, this should be 4,000kg.

 

 

Many thanks - I am pleased to have got so far and so fast in the circumstances, from arrival in the UK on the 24th June to taxed and on-the-road by the 26th July is much much faster than anticipated given that in that time it had the tech and paper work completed. HMRC and DVLA turned things around much faster than had been anticipated. Especially DVLA. I was led to believe anywhere between 6 -12 weeks given that their work was significantly disrupted by Covid. They did it in 11 working days. I cannot explain how they did it that fast given that they had a massive backlog. If I knew where to send them, I'd send them flowers - or beer.

 

Thank you for the clarification on the weights. I think I now know where I am going on the weight front. Because I have a larger 90litre fuel tank option on the van if I brim it I will add 77kg weight. So I would expect the weigh-bridge ticket to show 3080 at that point. Does the weigh-bridge ticket indicate the fuel level, I assume not. In which case it's just a matter of pointing the police should they wish to know at the La Strada COC plate on the vehicle and V5C (I'll carry a copy in the Van) and telling them it was weighed with a full fuel tank.

[colin]

90L is the smaller tank.

[Derek Uzzell]

But 60 litres is the smallest tank

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Adblue-coming-to-Fiat-Ducato/51240/

[Brian Kirby]

slowdriver - 2020-07-26 10:15 AM...………………….

1 So I would expect the weigh-bridge ticket to show 3080 at that point.

2 Does the weigh-bridge ticket indicate the fuel level, I assume not. In which case it's just a matter of pointing the police should they wish to know at the La Strada COC plate on the vehicle and V5C (I'll carry a copy in the Van) and telling them it was weighed with a full fuel tank.

1 Not necessarily as that "Mass in service" figure does not necessarily imply a full tank: just (from memory) a fuel tank at least 90% full. I suspect the La Strada figure is not generated by weighing each vehicle individually, but during the Type Approval procedure, so will be based on a sample van, from which individual vehicles may vary due to inevitable differences in the weights of materials used during fit-out. Also, don't forget Mass in service should include 75kg for a driver, and the driver is excluded from the legal "unladen" definition. So, don't forget to get out of the van and off the platform when the van is weighed! :-) That alone should give you a 75kg head start on the van being under 3,050kg unladen.

 

2 No! Not fuel. :-)

 

All you really need to carry so far as weight is concerned, is a printed weighbridge ticket showing your vehicle registration number, the date, and its weight as below 3,050kg.

 

Although the V5C "Mass in service" figure may vary for the reasons in 1 above, it can not take account of any fixed extras you may add / have added post purchase. Anything such, for example, as a roll out awning or a satellite dish, that is permanently fixed to the van, becomes part of its legal "unladen" weight.

 

So long as the weighbridge ticket shows less than 3,050kg it won't matter how full or empty the tank was when it was weighed, as its legal "unladen" weight would be with its fuel tank empty.

 

The state of the tank will only become relevant if, when weighed with a full tank and no driver, it weighs over 3,050kg - when it would be legitimate to deduct the 77kg of fuel weight to arrive at a lower figure. If that lower figure is less than 3,050kg you're OK, but such fine differences could easily be accounted for by variations between individual weighbridges. Were you to be stopped on suspicion of speeding while driving below the car limit, and required to present your van to be weighed to establish its actual unladen weight, weighbridge accuracy might become relevant, but if you had the weighbridge ticket you would, at least, be able to demonstrate your basis for believing your van to be under 3,050kg unladen. However, I think I am probably pursuing diminishing probabilities! :-D

 

So, depending on the margin applicable to the figure you end up with, it may be safer to just assume a weight exceeding 3.050kg, and stick to the lower speed limits while in UK. You will in any case have to do this when outside the UK, since it is generally whether the plated MAM exceeds 3,500kg that determines whether you can drive at car speeds, or must adopt the lower speed limits applicable in whichever country. Good luck!

[Steve928]

colin - 2020-07-26 10:46 AM

 

90L is the smaller tank.

 

Not any more. The standard tank from Euro6D/TEMP onwards is 60L with only 90L available as a cost option. The 120L tank can no longer be specified. All due to space taken up by the Adblue tank (as detailed in Derek's link).

[colin]

Steve928 - 2020-07-26 2:26 PM

 

colin - 2020-07-26 10:46 AM

 

90L is the smaller tank.

 

Not any more. The standard tank from Euro6D/TEMP onwards is 60L with only 90L available as a cost option. The 120L tank can no longer be specified. All due to space taken up by the Adblue tank (as detailed in Derek's link).

 

Yes I remembered that after Derek posted the link, I even posted on that thread. :$

Shame as I like our larger tank, gives more flexibility when refilling.

[Robinhood]

I must admit that if the La Strada CoC shows mass in running order as 3003kg, I'm surprised we're wondering about the "unladen weight" and the effect on UK speed limits.

 

It looks very much like La Strada use the conventional (reduced water) calculation for MIRO, which leaves around 200kg margin above the "unladen weight" definition, and 3003 is below the 3050kg anyway.

 

My Hymer CoC shows two figures, one at item 13, which is the homologation MIRO figure (base spec, no options) and one at 13.2 which is the weight above with all the (factory fitted) options (i.e. the actual MIRO as it left the factory). The latter is on my V5C as "Mass in Service", and as I understand it, from both the Hymer and DVLA perspective, this includes weight of driver (75kg), full fuel tank, etc.

 

If the 3003kg figure appears on both the CoC and V5C, especially if it is the equivalent of the 13.2 figure on my CoC, then I'd choose to have any argument about unladen weight on the basis of that figure, not a different, arbitrarily-loaded weighbridge figure.

 

(The foregoing subject, of course, to not permanently retrofitting "bits" that would patently use up any 200kg or so margin, and I will add a caveat that the 3003kg value looks quite low when compared to the brochure specification, given you've added some weighty factory extras).

 

If we "write off" the need to weigh the 'van in order to estimate the "unladen weight", then the real requirement is to weigh it in full-on holiday mode, with full tanks, passengers, kit, etc., in order to determine the overall mass and check it against the MAM, and determine the axle weights, and check them against the maxima.

 

I don't think you'll be challenged by any of these weights on a 4t Maxi, but it will help with tyre-pressures, should you wish to adjust them, and an assessment as to whether plating at 3.5t is viable (my guess would be not).

 

[slowdriver]

Many Thanks - as usual it has been an education. Whether the lesson is retained is another matter. I will in any event weigh it empty, as defined by Brian, and then full with all our kit and ourselves on board and keep the tickets. Practically given the numbers on the CoC and the V5C it looks like the more useful figure is the fully laden weight, which given our usual load should be well within the 4000kg limit. As Robin indicates whether it is within 3500kg will be nip and tuck. However for the moment that does not matter. I am still 69 and fit. Should that change before my 70th we will be able technically able to down-plate.

[Keithl]

slowdriver - 2020-07-26 4:14 PM

As Robin indicates whether it is within 3500kg will be nip and tuck. However for the moment that does not matter. I am still 69 and fit. Should that change before my 70th we will be able technically able to down-plate.

 

Chris,

 

RH did not say 3,500 kg, he said 3,050 kg (3.05 metric tonnes or 3 imperial tons) which is the weight limit for an UNLADEN MH to be able to obey car speed limits and not HGV or van speed limits.

 

National speed limits

Type of vehicle Built-up areas mph Single carriageways mph Dual carriageways mph Motorways mph

Cars, motorcycles, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles 30 60 70 70

Cars, motorcycles, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles when towing caravans or trailers 30 50 60 60

Motorhomes or motor caravans (not more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight) 30 60 70 70

Motorhomes or motor caravans (more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight) 30 50 60 70

 

Sorry but you lose the formatting in copy/paste and I've removed km/h for clarity but here is the link...

 

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

 

Keith.

[slowdriver]

Keithl - 2020-07-26 4:22 PM

 

slowdriver - 2020-07-26 4:14 PM

As Robin indicates whether it is within 3500kg will be nip and tuck. However for the moment that does not matter. I am still 69 and fit. Should that change before my 70th we will be able technically able to down-plate.

 

Chris,

 

RH did not say 3,500 kg, he said 3,050 kg (3.05 metric tonnes or 3 imperial tons) which is the weight limit for an UNLADEN MH to be able to obey car speed limits and not HGV or van speed limits.

 

National speed limits

Type of vehicle Built-up areas mph Single carriageways mph Dual carriageways mph Motorways mph

Cars, motorcycles, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles 30 60 70 70

Cars, motorcycles, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles when towing caravans or trailers 30 50 60 60

Motorhomes or motor caravans (not more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight) 30 60 70 70

Motorhomes or motor caravans (more than 3.05 tonnes maximum unladen weight) 30 50 60 70

 

Sorry but you lose the formatting in copy/paste and I've removed km/h for clarity but here is the link...

 

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

 

Keith.

 

 

Sorry I should have been clearer. When I mentioned 3,500kg I was referring to RH's point in his last paragraph

 

"I don't think you'll be challenged by any of these weights on a 4t Maxi, but it will help with tyre-pressures, should you wish to adjust them, and an assessment as to whether plating at 3.5t is viable (my guess would be not). "

 

which was about the whether we could get within the 3500kg limit, which has other benefits in terms of not needing a medical next year to retain my C1, and enabling my wife, who does not have a C1, to drive the van.

 

But thank you for the speed limit information, I was going to look it up later today. You have saved me that task.

[Brian Kirby]

Robinhood - 2020-07-26 3:36 PM...…………………...

My Hymer CoC shows two figures, one at item 13, which is the homologation MIRO figure (base spec, no options) and one at 13.2 which is the weight above with all the (factory fitted) options (i.e. the actual MIRO as it left the factory). The latter is on my V5C as "Mass in Service", and as I understand it, from both the Hymer and DVLA perspective, this includes weight of driver (75kg), full fuel tank, etc.

 

If the 3003kg figure appears on both the CoC and V5C, especially if it is the equivalent of the 13.2 figure on my CoC, then I'd choose to have any argument about unladen weight on the basis of that figure, not a different, arbitrarily-loaded weighbridge figure.………………………………..

Make of the following what you will, but just for comparison, for our 2.3 litre 130PS, 6.0 metre, Ducato conversion by Knaus on the Maxi chassis, plated at 3,500kg MAM, the CoC has the following relevant entries: at 13 - 2,880kg, and at 13.2 - 2,994kg.

 

The V5C has 2,880 as Mass in service.

 

On delivery I took it to the weighbridge laden as above (i.e. as delivered, with only factory spec extras and factory fit awning, plus jack and toolkit), no gas cylinders, all on board tanks and toilet cassette empty, habitation battery as supplied, no driver, and 120 litres of diesel, and the weighbridge ticket shows 2,900kg.

 

Allowing for weighbridge differences, that appears to equate reasonably with the 2,880 on the CoC at item 13 (and therefore the Mass in service figure on the V5C. Where Knaus got the figure at 13.2 I don't know!

 

From the published catalogue weights (MIRO plus specified extras), the van as delivered should weigh 2,934kg. MIRO includes driver at 75kg plus fuel tank at 90% full (which I suspect would apply to the standard 90 litre tank only).

[colin]

Our Campscout has MIRO of 3058kg on CoC, which I thought rather high, since then have added a few bits, when it was weighed for MOT with a driver who must be well over 100kg, two full 13kg calor, all the stuff which stays in van, but no water, food, or clothes, IIRC was 2850kg :-S which doesn't make sense, but does line up better with the brochure figure of 2885kg.

[Steve928]

Which of the CoC mass figures (13 or 13.2) ends up as 'G. mass in service' on the V5C is I believe simply a case of which figure the person completing form V55-4 puts in box 36 on that form. The guidance notes for that form state simply 'take this data from the CoC'. The examples above seem to indicate that DVLA will happily accept either 13 or 13.2.

 

In the case of my Eura, CoC 13 = 2950Kg which is the 'brochure' MRO of the base model without any packages or additions while CoC 13.2 = 3136Kg which is the actual vehicle mass upon exiting the factory (Eura provide their weighbridge ticket).

I asked the dealer to use 2950Kg. (as I wished to avoid any confusion with the unladen weight speed limit boundary of 3050Kg.) and consequently that's what is down as mass in service on my V5C.

 

On the subject of unladen weight and speed limits the person who started the Bailey Facebook Owners group claims to have been prosecuted for speeding at between 50 and 60mph on an A road in his Bailey 745, V5C mass in service/MRO 3142Kg, based upon that figure exceeding 3050Kg. unladen weight. He opted to attend court to make all the MRO v. unladen weight arguments but failed to get the prosecution annulled. Of course I have no firm evidence of this but it was subject to lengthy discussion on the group at the time and I'd rate it higher than 'I heard about it from a bloke down the pub' at least, hence why I requested use of the lower figure.

[Brian Kirby]

Steve928 - 2020-07-27 7:37 AM

Which of the CoC mass figures (13 or 13.2) ends up as 'G. mass in service' on the V5C is I believe simply a case of which figure the person completing form V55-4 puts in box 36 on that form. The guidance notes for that form state simply 'take this data from the CoC'. The examples above seem to indicate that DVLA will happily accept either 13 or 13.2.

In the case of my Eura, CoC 13 = 2950Kg which is the 'brochure' MRO of the base model without any packages or additions while CoC 13.2 = 3136Kg which is the actual vehicle mass upon exiting the factory (Eura provide their weighbridge ticket).

I asked the dealer to use 2950Kg. (as I wished to avoid any confusion with the unladen weight speed limit boundary of 3050Kg.) and consequently that's what is down as mass in service on my V5C.

On the subject of unladen weight and speed limits the person who started the Bailey Facebook Owners group claims to have been prosecuted for speeding at between 50 and 60mph on an A road in his Bailey 745, V5C mass in service/MRO 3142Kg, based upon that figure exceeding 3050Kg. unladen weight. He opted to attend court to make all the MRO v. unladen weight arguments but failed to get the prosecution annulled. Of course I have no firm evidence of this but it was subject to lengthy discussion on the group at the time and I'd rate it higher than 'I heard about it from a bloke down the pub' at least, hence why I requested use of the lower figure.

Owners are supposed to check their V5C for accuracy on receipt, and notify DVLA of any errors. The implication is that if they do not notify DVLA of any error, they accept the V5C as an accurate record. On that basis I suppose the owner of the Bailey could be claimed to have been knowingly exceeding the speed limit applicable to his (presumably) van.

 

As the case would have turned on a matter of fact, it seems a bit harsh for the court to have ignored the subsequent evidence on weight, but it seems technical arguments to not often fare very well in the courts unless the explanation is so impeccably clear and simple that everyone present fully understands it!

 

The actual law is one of those arcane and characterful bits of tosh that makes the UK such an "interesting" place to live! :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

A forum Search on “3050kg” shows how often this has been discussed here before

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=all&keywords=3050kg&author=&days=&Submit=Search

 

It’s generally understood that the UK’s archaic speed limit based on a 3050kg unladen-weight figure is essentially unpoliceable.

 

As Chris’s La Strada is LHD, it’s reasonable to assume that much of its usage will be outside the UK. The vehicle is built on a Ducato ‘heavy’ (Maxi) 4000kg MTPLM base and has been UK-registered in the Private HGV VED class, so - once outside the UK - the 3050kg anachronism becomes irrelevant and the 4000kg MTPLM value will be what matters.

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-27 8:28 AM

 

Owners are supposed to check their V5C for accuracy on receipt, and notify DVLA of any errors. The implication is that if they do not notify DVLA of any error, they accept the V5C as an accurate record. On that basis I suppose the owner of the Bailey could be claimed to have been knowingly exceeding the speed limit applicable to his (presumably) van.

 

 

...but

 

...it is obvious from the guidance notes from the V55/4 first registration form (and the fact that there are two separate fields) that the "Mass in Service" is not the same as "Unladen Weight".

 

Hence, subject to clarification of what the "Mass in Service" figure for a specific vehicle comprises, it would be quite possible in some circumstances to have a figure above 3050kg for this, but still have an "Unladen Weight" of less than 3050kg. An extra 92kg is pushing it a bit, but if that includes driver, fuel and water, then I would assume that an unladen weight of less than 3050kg was provable.

[Brian Kirby]

Robinhood - 2020-07-27 9:14 AM

Brian Kirby - 2020-07-27 8:28 AM

Owners are supposed to check their V5C for accuracy on receipt, and notify DVLA of any errors. The implication is that if they do not notify DVLA of any error, they accept the V5C as an accurate record. On that basis I suppose the owner of the Bailey could be claimed to have been knowingly exceeding the speed limit applicable to his (presumably) van.

...but

...it is obvious from the guidance notes from the V55/4 first registration form (and the fact that there are two separate fields) that the "Mass in Service" is not the same as "Unladen Weight".

Hence, subject to clarification of what the "Mass in Service" figure for a specific vehicle comprises, it would be quite possible in some circumstances to have a figure above 3050kg for this, but still have an "Unladen Weight" of less than 3050kg. An extra 92kg is pushing it a bit, but if that includes driver, fuel and water, then I would assume that an unladen weight of less than 3050kg was provable.

Absolutely Bob. That was why his failure to get his conviction annulled struck me as harsh. The problem is that we don't know what argument/s he used to try to convince the court, how they were presented, or what figure (if any) was in his V5C at field G. Steve referred to "Mass in service/MRO", so it is not really clear if that indicates an assumption that the two are interchangeable, whereas that is not necessarily the case.

 

For example, our 2007 Hobby Van V5C was blank at Field G, as was our 2013 Hymer Exsis-I!

 

Assuming the Mass in service included, as it should, 75kg for a driver plus the weight of fuel (even assuming 90% full on a 90 litre tank) at, say, 69kg, that would reduce the actual weight by 144kg, dropping it to 2,998kg - so less that 3,050kg.

 

But then there is the weight of coolant, the loose tools, and, arguably, the habitation battery, none of which, as I understand it, are included within the legal definition of "unladen". So, he should have been quids (or kilogrammes :-)) in.

 

If he'd had a weighbridge ticket showing an actual weight below 3,050kg (or been represented by, for example, an AA or RAC solicitor) it seems to me that the least that should have happened was for the police to insist on witnessing a re-weighing at a weighbridge of their choosing, or accepting that the weighbridge ticket proved that the unladen vehicle was less that 3,050kg.

[Robinhood]

Just following up on the above:

 

As the discussion was going on, I emailed Hymer for a confirmation of the weights they use on their CoC, and the basis of their calculation.

 

It had some specific interest for me, since the "Tatsächliche Masse des Fahrzeugs" of 3055kg had been carried forward to my V5C as "Mass in Service", and is patently above the 3050kg unladen weight threshold for the higher UK speed limits.

 

I have just had a reply (with apologies for delay due to Covid and holidays).

 

The figure used for "Tatsächliche Masse des Fahrzeugs" at 13.2 on the CoC is much as I expected (since it was very close to my calculations).

 

It includes the allowances in VO (EU) No. 1230/2012 (which are those used to calculate the "base" MIRO figure, e.g. driver, fuel, fluids as specified, gas, etc) and is essentially that base MIRO figure uplifted with the weight of all the non-base extras fitted at the factory.

 

In the case of Hymer (and implicitly by the (virtual) letterhead of the reply I received, Eriba, Carado and Etrusco), this is not a weighbridge figure, it is pure calculation based on the standardised base MIRO and the quoted weights of factory-fitted options and accessories.

 

Anyway, if I get challenged on the basis of the 3055 "Mass in Service" figure, I now have the manufacturers evidence that the unladen weight is some 150-200kg lower than that. ;-)

 

[Brian Kirby]

Good stuff. But I'd still take the van to a weighbridge with a full fuel tank, but less everything else that falls outside the legal "unladen" definition, and make sure I got a copy of the weighbridge ticket showing date and registration number, and then keep that among the documents I usually carry in the van (I do! :-)).

 

After all, what harm can it do, and if, by extreme bad fortune, it showed a weight over 3,050kg at least I'd know where I stood and whether, if the weight of the fuel were deducted, I might have a reasonable chance of being able to demonstrate a legal unladen weight below 3,050kg!