"General failure" warning lamp.

[rayc]

Brian Kirby - 2020-11-25 7:01 PM

I have no notification of an earlier update when the van was serviced last December. As the fault only appeared after that service I suspect that for the previous two years use the fault was not present. It does point to some event during the service that might have corrupted the software......

 

Perhaps the oil level was higher meaning the sensor was always completely in the oil ? After an oil change perhaps it was a little lower?

[Jands]

Just had the " Oil pressure light failure light" fixed.

Could not believe the necessity of this light as oil pressure red light works ok.

Took MH to fiat garage and they said they would investigate it, the light only started 8 miles and a couple of weeks after the second year service.

The garage diagnosed it as a faulty oil level sensor, phase and voltage out of limits.

They did a software upgrade and sorted out problem.

Ashed why the upgrade is not included in the service, they told me that there are so many upgrades it would be difficult and only upgrade when there is a problem!!

The upgrade possibly adjusts the sensor limit tolerances

Fiat CS had agreed to pay but when the dealer contacted the warranty department they refused.

The dealer said they would do it free as a good will gesture.

Happy its fixed but not having the latest upgrades worrying as what sensor will drift out of limits next.

Pity upgrades are not part of the service schedule, I suppose a safety one would be.

[Grumpyman]

I had the same warning light coming on turned out to be the oil pressure valve luckley still under Fiat warranty.

[breakaleg]

Pay for a software update?

Please don't tell Microsoft :-D 8-)

[Derek Uzzell]

There’s a longish article about vehicle software updates/upgrades on this Canadian webpage

 

https://www.theguardian.pe.ca/wheels/software-update-does-your-vehicle-need-one-274334/

 

The final two paragraphs say

 

"Do you have to pay for it? That depends. If the software update corrects some issue covered by warranty, corrects some issue with the emissions system, or is part of a safety-related recall, it’s typically covered for free.

 

In some cases, software updates are performed on the owner’s dime, but typically not until the vehicle is out of warranty.”

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Bit of an update. I spoke again to the garage this morning, this time to the warranty manager. He confirmed what I was told yesterday, that for non-safety related software upgrades they can't recover costs from Fiat, so are obliged to charge. I said this still felt unreasonable to me, and would take it up with Fiat.

 

I then went out to the van and turned on the ignition, but did not start the engine. The general failure light illuminated as it should, and then, along with all the other "boot check" lights, went out as it should. But I didn't see the usual dashboard oil level gauge, which normally appears briefly, and then disappears. So, ignition on again and, sure enough, no oil level gauge on dash. My assumption is that the upgrade simply disabled the oil level sensor. No great loss, I'd never relied on it! But why? Is it now disabled, and if so why is that? Unreliable gauge, or unreliable software?

 

So, over to Fiat customer services (from her home, just outside Milan!), who took all details and said I would be contacted (phone or e-mail) by a technical advisor in the next couple of days. She also advised that software upgrades were normally chargeable. I re-stated that this seemed unreasonable under the circumstances, as until the first service (carried out by a Fiat Professional garage, within their stipulated limit, to their instructions) no such problem had existed. I'll see what they say.

 

In the meantime, there seem to be three possibilities.

 

1 That the sensor is defective, and has been disabled by the new software on the basis that the repair cost is not justified by the benefit. However, I was not consulted, or asked whether I'd prefer the sensor to be replaced during the next (2021) service.

 

2 That the original software was defective, in that it set too fine a limit on triggering the warning, and the new software has rectified this. But then, why disable the dashboard gauge?

 

3 That the garage slightly over-filled the sump at the service, so that when parked nose up on the drive the level appeared undesirably high (light stays on), but when parked nose down the level appeared acceptable (light goes off). In which case, again, why would the software mod also disable the dashboard gauge?

 

2 and 3 point to much the same thing - a sensor that has insufficient out of level tolerance. 1 may just be acceptance that a sensor that operates whenever the ignition is turned on, can only be reliable if it is mounted at the exact mid-point of the sump, so that its readings are unaffected by the van being out of level. After all, the standard instruction for using a dip-stick is that the van must be standing level.

 

I'll post again after I hear back from Fiat.

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2020-11-26 3:38 PM

 

But I didn't see the usual dashboard oil level gauge, which normally appears briefly, and then disappears. So, ignition on again and, sure enough, no oil level gauge on dash.

 

I'm not sure that this is indicative of anything, Brian.

 

On my current and my previous 'van I didn't see this on every cycle. I know it is displayed on occasions on the current 'van (In fact, I've seen it several times very recently). I've just gone through the boot-up cycle just now without firing up the engine, with no such display.

 

(I know your thread has throughout has been concerned with the General Failure light. There has been much confusion elsewhere in the thread conflating it with one of the "gravy boat of doom" lights being illuminated. Whilst they might be associated with your problem (as was) I'm not sure it has helped. ;-) )

 

and, edited to add:

 

Left it a couple of minutes then went out and cycled again - this time I did get the display, twice.

 

It most certainly didn't display first time - I wonder whether, if left static for some time, some of the logic takes time to "wake up".

[weldted]

Hi Brian, our 2019 Burstner with the Fiat 2.3 150 comformatic has suffered from intermittent warning light displays. Mainly the low oil level warning light and the low oil pressure warning light failure. And an occasional gear not available. I had Fiat assist send a mechanic out he went right through the systems and could find no fault (we are locked down in France) on start up I always wait for the warning lights to go out and have noticed the the oil level graph doesn’t always come on every time when the van is parked on the level bit of our drive, but if its on the slope looking upwards the graph will appear showing its down one level every time its started. Whether that has any bearing I am not sure??

[Brian Kirby]

Robinhood - 2020-11-26 5:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2020-11-26 3:38 PM

But I didn't see the usual dashboard oil level gauge, which normally appears briefly, and then disappears. So, ignition on again and, sure enough, no oil level gauge on dash.

I'm not sure that this is indicative of anything, Brian.

On my current and my previous 'van I didn't see this on every cycle. I know it is displayed on occasions on the current 'van (In fact, I've seen it several times very recently). I've just gone through the boot-up cycle just now without firing up the engine, with no such display.

(I know your thread has throughout has been concerned with the General Failure light. There has been much confusion elsewhere in the thread conflating it with one of the "gravy boat of doom" lights being illuminated. Whilst they might be associated with your problem (as was) I'm not sure it has helped. ;-) )

and, edited to add:

Left it a couple of minutes then went out and cycled again - this time I did get the display, twice.

It most certainly didn't display first time - I wonder whether, if left static for some time, some of the logic takes time to "wake up".

Thanks for this, Bob. I'll leave it to stand a bit longer and try it a few more times. But the manual, on which I have been relying, does state "When the ignition key is turned to the MAR position, the display shows the oil level by turning on/off five symbols"! I know it used to be there, because I saw it! :-D

[Brian Kirby]

weldted - 2020-11-26 5:30 PM

Hi Brian, our 2019 Burstner with the Fiat 2.3 150 comformatic has suffered from intermittent warning light displays. Mainly the low oil level warning light and the low oil pressure warning light failure. And an occasional gear not available. I had Fiat assist send a mechanic out he went right through the systems and could find no fault (we are locked down in France) on start up I always wait for the warning lights to go out and have noticed the the oil level graph doesn’t always come on every time when the van is parked on the level bit of our drive, but if its on the slope looking upwards the graph will appear showing its down one level every time its started. Whether that has any bearing I am not sure??

Thanks Ted. Curioser and curioser! How are you getting on with the lockdown?

[Bulletguy]

 

Maybe i'm missing something but all "Oil level Sensor Calibration" light says to me is it's another unnecessary bit of electronics to save folk pulling the dipstick out and looking at the oil level. Trouble is, as with all things electronic, it's yet something else to go wrong among the mass of electronic gubbins now stuffed into today's vehicles, much of it quite unnecessary. Paying for software updates also strikes me as convenient little earner for the garage/dealer but what happens to the vehicle when the updates become obsolete but the engine and mechanics of the vehicle are fine?

[rayc]

I have a pdf of the operation / location etc of the oil level sensor. Is it possible to post it to the forum?

[Keithl]

rayc - 2020-11-26 9:11 PM

 

I have a pdf of the operation / location etc of the oil level sensor. Is it possible to post it to the forum?

What is the file size Ray?

 

I think you can attach a file up to 100 kb but moderators can attach up to 200 kb.

 

Keith.

[747]

Brian Kirby - 2020-01-04 6:30 PM

 

This is the amber warning light (exclamation mark inside triangle) located on the instrument panel between the speedometer and the fuel gauge.

 

Vehicle is 2017 Euro 6, no AdBlue, 130 PS manual.

 

Took the van for a "walk" this afternoon, and noticed the above was lit after about 3 miles, and stayed lit until we got home, after about a further 15 miles. The van drove absolutely normally: no other warning lights on, no message on the control panel (multi function display, not reconfigurable), no beeps.

 

The light was steady: not flashing (so not airbag).

 

Remaining possible causes (taking account of options fitted): fuel inertia cut off activated, light failure, fuel filter sensor failed, audio system failure, oil pressure sensor failure, water in fuel filter.

 

Got home, looked at above possible causes, and went out to explore. Turned on lights, with and without ignition on (no warning light): all functioning normally. The audio system is aftermarket (van delivered from new with no radio), so discounted that (presumed no interface). Discounted fuel cut-off as van ran perfectly without any hesitancy. Discounted fuel filter as serviced in December, and driven over 100 miles since with light not on.

 

That left low oil pressure or water in fuel. Started engine: all normal, no amber warning light! Blipped throttle, turned lights on and off again, tried brakes, tried hazards. Presume oil pressure normal. Water in diesel? I don't believe in miracle cures!

 

Any suggestions? Many thanks.

Get it on the motorway and drive it like you stole it. You have probably been driving it like a Vicar on a Sunday afternoon.

 

I am being perfectly serious here Brian. It is a diesel engine, if you don't give them some work they turn lazy.

[Derek Uzzell]

You’ve quoted Brian’s original enquiry made in January 2020.

 

Things have moved on since then, with Brian providing an in-depth update in his posting of 25 November 2020 3:50 PM.

 

It’s evident from that posting that Fiat is aware of the issue Brian has been experiencing and that there is revised software that can be applied to address the problem. Brian says

 

The result from their code reader was "Fault P250 A/3 = Oil level Sensor Calibration = download latest software and install as required". The technician said it was apparently due to corrupted software, and the update was intended to fix the problem. He added that they had previously updated several with the same fault. Cost: £78 + VAT!

 

Thrashing Brian’s motorhome on the motorway will have as much beneficial effect on this type of fault as me battering my computer's keyboard harder would have in improving the eloquence my writing.

 

When revised software becomes available for my sat-nav, iPad, iPhone and TV I apply it in the hope that the revisions won’t cause harm and might do some good - and, sometimes, the revision cures a ‘fault’ that I’ve recognised and been tolerating. But it’s commonly the case that I’ve not known what was causing the ‘fault’’, which means that I can't know what the software has done to stop it happening. That software updating can have unpredictable (and unpleasant) knock-on effects should be very apparent from this Microsoft link

 

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/troubleshoot-problems-updating-windows-10-188c2b0f-10a7-d72f-65b8-32d177eb136c

 

It can’t be expected that a Fiat Professional (FP) technician will know exactly how a software ‘fix’ functions - though it should become exident afterwards whether or not the fix has worked.

 

I’m pretty sure that if Brian (having mentioned the warning-light problem to the FP garage) had been told that there was a FREE software revision that the garage could apply to deal with this, he wouldn’t be worrying too much about the fine detail. It’s the £93.60 charge that infuriates...

[747]

Now you can see why I don't drive a 'Sevel' vehicle. I have not done so since 2007 as they are nowt but trouble starting with Juddergate. It must be the engineering background in me. 8-)

[rayc]

Keithl - 2020-11-26 9:51 PM

 

rayc - 2020-11-26 9:11 PM

 

I have a pdf of the operation / location etc of the oil level sensor. Is it possible to post it to the forum?

What is the file size Ray?

 

I think you can attach a file up to 100 kb but moderators can attach up to 200 kb.

 

Keith.

Properties say 484kb

[Keithl]

Try reducing the file size either as a pdf or convert it to a jpg. If you're struggling then send me a PM and I'll send you my email address and I'll try.

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

rayc - 2020-11-26 9:11 PM

I have a pdf of the operation / location etc of the oil level sensor. Is it possible to post it to the forum?

Thanks Ray. If you can bear the faff, I'd be very grateful to see it or, alternatively, if easier and you can do this, would it be easier to post a link to the source of the document you have, and I'll download one. Thanks again.

[Tracker]

747 - 2020-11-27 9:52 AM

 

Now you can see why I don't drive a 'Sevel' vehicle. I have not done so since 2007 as they are nowt but trouble starting with Juddergate. It must be the engineering background in me. 8-)

I totally disagree! I have had quite a few Sevel vans over the years, mainly Peugeot, starting with Talbot Express in the 80's and they have always given me first class and reliable service over thousands of miles.

What few issues I have had have been cost effective and simple to fix, although infuriating at the time, but would I buy a latest model of any make with all the gizmos and electronics - not a chance.

Two words that still strike fear into mere mortals - Fiat and electrics!!

I have seen no evidence that anyone else's vans are broadly any better, although some of 'em cost a lot more?

No doubt I will now be told how wonderful some makes really are!!

[Deneb]

Brian Kirby - 2020-11-27 1:06 PM

 

rayc - 2020-11-26 9:11 PM

I have a pdf of the operation / location etc of the oil level sensor. Is it possible to post it to the forum?

Thanks Ray. If you can bear the faff, I'd be very grateful to see it or, alternatively, if easier and you can do this, would it be easier to post a link to the source of the document you have, and I'll download one. Thanks again.

 

It's described in the eLearn workshop manual that I know Robinhood placed on a download server a short time ago, to make it available to forum users. If you ask nicely, he might be prepared to repeat the exercise.

 

The physical aspect is basically a wire within the sump, through which an electric current is sent with the ignition energised but engine not running. It relies on the ability of oil to dissipate heat from a known resistance in the wire, so by taking voltage and resistance readings and comparing them to the reference reading for the rod in open air, the volume of oil can be extrapolated.

 

Two readings are obtained within a period of around 1 second, and converted by the oil sensor control unit to a pulse width modulated signal which is sent to the engine control unit. The latter then notifies it to the instrument cluster via the can network.

 

So any software modifications are probably concerned with the timings and algorithm for calculating and reliably broadcasting the necessary signal.

 

My Ducato doesn't have the digital sensor/display, and from experience with my Volvo, which only has a dumbed down idiot indication on the instrument cluster and no physical dipstick at all, I can't say that it is something I miss or wish I had on the van.

 

As the Ducato handbook intimates, the gauge is only intended as an indication, and to determine if the oil level is correct, it advises you to check the dipstick, which surely makes the gauge redundant anyway?

 

Regarding software updates, there are tens if not hundreds of them issued each year for most contemporary vehicles, mostly only intended to be implemented in new production. It is quite rare in my experience for vehicles already in use to be routinely updated unless the new software has been implemented to fix a serious issue.

 

I had a copy of a Fiat bulletin some time ago, which advised their dealer network that unless individually advised to the contrary, software updates were not intended to be routinely applied to vehicles during servicing, and should only be offered in the event that they were intended to fix a specific issue of which the vehicle owner had complained, and which could be demonstrated to or replicated by the dealer. Unfortunately I no longer have access to those bulletins, so I can't say whether the situation might have changed.

 

As mentioned by Derek, it can sometimes be a case of being careful what you wish for. There seems to be a widely held belief that software updates must always mean an improvement, and that it is desirable to always have the latest version, but they can sometimes introduce new problems, whilst fixing others that many owner haven't even noticed.

 

Volvo again, are one of very few manufacturers that routinely update vehicle software during annual services, but owners forums often contain posts from owners who feel that aspects of their vehicle or driving experience have not been improved by some of them. If you have an issue that an update is known to fix, that's one thing, but if you don't have any problems, it can sometimes be better to not know what you're missing ;-)

[Keithl]

Ray's pdf document...

 

All pages saved as Black and White. If anyone wants colour please drop me a PM with your email address.

 

Keith.

Oil Check 1 BW.pdf

Oil Check 2 BW.pdf

Oil Check 3 BW.pdf

[Brian Kirby]

Thank you Keith and Ray. Have downloaded all three. I get the principle, which leaves me suspecting the oil level after the service, which also fits with timing of the first appearance of the problem. In effect the sensor as originally installed and calibrated is over-sensitive to static oil level, so they've overwritten the reader to reduce its sensitivity. This also fits with its location at the rear of the sump, and the problem arising only when parked nose up, which would equate to a higher reading when compared to a nose down attitude.

 

Still doesn't really explain why I should pay to fix it, though! :-D

 

I think the problem is with the garage, who do not have a bulk oil dispensing system so have to use cans, one of which (correct Selenia) was left with me after the service.

 

I'd guess the problem was over-filling, as I know the oil level on the dip stick was OK after the service, 'though can't now remember whether it was above or below the "full" mark. Also, it was only a rough check as the van was then parked nose up, so I saw no point in worrying over a minor variation and didn't know where the dip-stick entered the sump - but presumed that would be near the front. If it was then showing above full, that seems liable to translate to a lower reading on the sensor with the van nose down.

 

Make sense?

[Robinhood]

I'd be interested if you see the message return on occasions in the future Brian.

 

I've just been and tested mine again. This time, first time through I got the display, second I didn't.

 

I've never really seen it as an issue since the last 'van was very similar in its (intermittent) behaviour).

[spospe]

I had a similar problem back in 2017 when the oil level indicator did not show at all. The fault was eventually diagnosed as a slightly overfilled sump fooling the sensor.

 

My van was a Peugeot Boxer, not a Fiat Ducato, but the lack of an oil level display was the same, however there was no "General failure" warning lamp display.

 

The quite short thread is shown at:-----

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Oil-level-indicator-on-a-Boxer/46998/