Travel within the EU in 2020

[Brian Kirby]

goldi - 2020-02-20 3:48 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2020-02-20 1:09 PM

 

goldi - 2020-02-20 11:22 AM

 

Good morning,

 

If I did stay more than the 90 days how would I know that they would not want me to stay longer? They might want me and Mrs goldi to stay and keep spending money on their campsites etc. One campsite owner told meat a campsite in the Dordogne that without the Dutch and Brits going early and late season they would go bust, so unless we are obliged to stay longer it will be detrimental to the French tourist industry. The French know more than a thing or two about extracting money from the gullible brits. Anyway mr Goldi and I are booked again for France for June. Of course I could understand their displeasure at the boondockers.

Sorry, can't quite follow all of the above, but it seems there may be a misunderstanding.

 

The UK has now officially left the EU, as of 31 Jan 2020. During the rest of 2020 (and beyond if the UK government agrees to an extension to the negotiations on the new relationship between UK and EU) we are in an agreed transition period which, for so long as the negotiations continue, allows us, as individuals, to continue benefitting from the freedom of movement rights we had as EU members. But, as soon as those negotiations conclude, at whatever date, with or without agreement, we become, in terms of visiting the EU, third country nationals, and so subject to the same requirements as the rest of the world. The only exception would be if special visiting rights were included in the negotiated future relationship agreement.

 

Third countries fall into two groups, those requiring visas, and those not requiring visas but instead requiring a visa waiver that currently costs €7 and lasts for three years. The EU has already placed the UK in the latter group - but this only becomes relevant after the transition period has ended. It has no relevance to travel during transition.

 

As to how you would know, it will be because once transition ends our passports will be date stamped when we enter the EU/Schengen area, and again when we leave that area. From the date of the entry stamp you will be allowed to spend a maximum of 90 days in the EU/Schengen zone within 180 days from that date. If, when you come to leave, you have exceeded the 90 days limit (verifiable from the date stamps), whether in one trip or over several, you will be subject to penalties, the severity of which vary according to the duration of the overstay, but which include substantial fines or even banning. At some point in 2021 the border controls will pass to a computer based system, ETIAS, that will record your entries and exits and will automatically flag up your passport if you exceed your entitlement.

 

Staying within the 90 days limit, and calculating how that fits into the 180 days "window" is our individual responsibility, as it is for all other third country visitors. It will have nothing to do whatever with what camp-site owners might want, or wish for. If you overstay you will cop it, whatever any camp-site owner may tell you. I'm sorry if I've got the wrong end of your stick, but hope this clarifies the present situation a bit. Of course, things may change as time passes.

 

Good afternoon,

 

After reading what you have written Brian the EU begins to look more like a soviet tyranny and I am glad we are not art of it, even if it means We cannot go to the Eu as and when we want but there is always other places in the world. It would not be good for all the French motorhome manufacturers if they could not sell their vehicles because of the displeasure they have inflicted on us and what about the 12 to 20 million euros that come with the fines I suppose they would have to sacrifice that too.

Sorry, but I still don't understand. The EEC/EU open borders policy was introduced under the Schengen Treaty in 1985. It operated independently until 1999 when it was incorporated into European law under the Treaty of Amsterdam. See here: http://tinyurl.com/o4y8wko

 

The UK joined the EEC on 1 Jan 1973. Although not a signatory to the Schengen Treaty, the UK was "at the table" throughout the Schengen negotiations. The UK signed the Treaty of Amsterdam, but along with Ireland obtained an opt-out on the Schengen open borders provisions. In effect, the internal borders of the EU member states, except those of UK and Ireland, became non-existent insofar as border controls were concerned. But, under the Treaty of Rome there was free movement of workers, later widened under Directive 2004/38/EC. This gave UK and Irish citizens the "right to roam" that we have collectively enjoyed ever since, irrespective of our absence from Schengen.

 

All countries not members of the EU are recognises by the EU as "third countries" and there are common requirements for their nationals to enter the EU, just as before Schengen there were requirements for third country nationals to enter the individual EU states. The UK has always had its own entry conditions for nationals of non-EU member states.

 

The states recognised by the EU as third countries requiring visas for entry are: Afghanistan. Armenia. Angola. Azerbaijan. Bangladesh. Burkina Faso. Bahrain Burundi. Benin. Bolivia. Bhutan. Botswana. Belarus. Belize. Democratic. Republic of the Congo. Central African Republic. Congo. Côte d'Ivoire. Cameroon. China. Cuba. Cape Verde. Djibouti. Dominican Republic. Algeria. Ecuador. Egypt. Eritrea. Eswatini. Ethiopia. Fiji. Gabon. Ghana. The Gambia. Guinea. Equatorial Guinea. Guinea-Bissau. Guyana. Haiti. Indonesia. India. Iraq. Iran. Jamaica. Jordan. Kenya. Kyrgyzstan. Cambodia. Comoros. North. Korea. Kuwait. Kazakhstan. Laos. Lebanon. Sri Lanka. Liberia. Lesotho. Libya. Morocco. Madagascar. Mali. Myanmar/Burma. Mongolia. Mauritania. Maldives. Malawi. Mozambique. Namibia. Niger. Nigeria. Nepal. Oman. Papua. New. Guinea. Philippines. Pakistan. Qatar. Russia. Rwanda. Saudi Arabia. Sudan. Sierra Leone. Senegal. Somalia. Suriname. South Sudan. São Tomé and Príncipe. Syria. Chad. Togo. Thailand. Tajikistan. Turkmenistan. Tunisia. Turkey. Tanzania. Uganda. Uzbekistan. Vietnam. Yemen. South Africa. Zambia. and Zimbabwe.

 

Those recognised by the EU as not requiring visas (but requiring visa waivers) are: Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Andorra. United Arab Emirates. Antigua and Barbuda. Albania. Argentina. Australia. Bosnia and Herzegovina. Barbados. Brunei. Brazil. Bahamas. Canada. Chile. Colombia. Costa Rica. Dominica. Micronesia. Grenada. Georgia. Guatemala. Honduras. Israel. Japan. Kiribati. Saint Kitts and Nevis. South Korea. Saint Lucia. Monaco. Moldova. Montenegro. Marshall Islands. Mauritius. Mexico. Malaysia. Nicaragua. Nauru. New Zealand. Panama. Peru. Palau. Paraguay. Samoa. Serbia. Solomon Islands. Seychelles. Singapore. San Marino. El Salvador. Timor-Leste. Tonga. Trinidad and Tobago. Tuvalu. Ukraine. United States. Uruguay. Holy See. Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. Venezuela. Vanuatu.

 

The latter group is now joined, as a direct result of the UK deciding to leave the EU, by the UK. When we decided to leave, we decided to forfeit our free movement rights, and the visa waiver requirement, together with the 90 days in 180 days rule, now applies to the UK in exactly the same way as it applies to the nationals of the second group of countries above. Since the UK signed the treaty of Amsterdam, we are only subjecting ourselves to the same rules that we contributed to formulating for others twenty years ago, in 1999.

 

So, if the EU begins to you to look like a Soviet tyranny, it is only looking like that because of Treaties, Laws and Directives to which we have contributed, and for which we have voted. In effect, we are only being "done by as we did".

 

All countries set the terms of entry for foreigners to their territory. Many cited the freedom to exercise that right as a reason for the UK to leave the EU. It seems a bit odd to me to want to exerciee that right ourselves, but to condemn it as Soviet tyranny when it is applied to us. For example, look at what you would need to enter the United States of America. So far as UK nationals are concerned, that seems to me somewhat closer to "Soviet tyranny" than the EU's requirements for us to enter. Or have I misunderstood again?

[Derek Uzzell]

Brian Kirby - 2020-02-20 3:22 PM

 

flyboyprowler - 2020-02-19 9:13 PM

 

We have signed up to the following website, that is now starting to get some heavy support. I think it's worth a look, as it could well be that, if it succeeds, holders of the card could still retain their travel rights. Have a look, and I would appreciate your thoughts!

 

https://www.stayeuropean.org/

Thanks. Done!!

 

More about this idea here

 

https://tinyurl.com/rl3upkg

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

This is an edited reply from an ex-MEP in response to a request for a progress update with an earlier, similar, petition that I had signed.

 

"The issue of Associate EU citizenship is an important one, and deserves attention. I can assure you that I and my colleagues across the European Parliament have been lobbying hard for it become a reality.

 

However, serious legal and political barriers have meant that, unfortunately, it is not going to be achieved. For one, EU treaties see EU citizenship as a ‘co-citizenship’ that supplements national citizenship, meaning one is an EU citizen only through their nation state. To change this to allow citizens of a non-EU country to would require a treaty change which are notoriously difficult to achieve – every member state in the EU would have to unanimously agree to change the nature of EU citizenship for the UK – a departing member. Moreover, this would still not be enough, the UK government would then have to offer some form of reciprocal treatment for EU citizens in the UK, which, given its current record and treatment of this group, is almost certainly never going to happen.

 

I understand this not the answer you were hoping for, and this is a disappointing time for many of us who value European citizenship dearly."

 

Guy Verhofstadt was/is backing the proposal, but is clearly encountering "headwinds". Maybe, one day - though our collective anti-discrimination legislation will probably make it illegal to restrict EU Citizenship card holders to "remain" voters only! :-D But, I live in hope.

[Barryd999]

Brian Kirby - 2020-02-20 5:49 PM

 

This is an edited reply from an ex-MEP in response to a request for a progress update with an earlier, similar, petition that I had signed.

 

"The issue of Associate EU citizenship is an important one, and deserves attention. I can assure you that I and my colleagues across the European Parliament have been lobbying hard for it become a reality.

 

However, serious legal and political barriers have meant that, unfortunately, it is not going to be achieved. For one, EU treaties see EU citizenship as a ‘co-citizenship’ that supplements national citizenship, meaning one is an EU citizen only through their nation state. To change this to allow citizens of a non-EU country to would require a treaty change which are notoriously difficult to achieve – every member state in the EU would have to unanimously agree to change the nature of EU citizenship for the UK – a departing member. Moreover, this would still not be enough, the UK government would then have to offer some form of reciprocal treatment for EU citizens in the UK, which, given its current record and treatment of this group, is almost certainly never going to happen.

 

I understand this not the answer you were hoping for, and this is a disappointing time for many of us who value European citizenship dearly."

 

Guy Verhofstadt was/is backing the proposal, but is clearly encountering "headwinds". Maybe, one day - though our collective anti-discrimination legislation will probably make it illegal to restrict EU Citizenship card holders to "remain" voters only! :-D But, I live in hope.

 

Some say the EU may offer continued Citizenship to UK citizens. I know its been ongoing as a campaign since 2016. Its a long shot but its just possible they may do it unilaterally but I just bet if they do Johnson will deliberately decline it or put a spanner in the works.

 

One things for sure motorhomers wanting to overwinter in Spain will not be on anyones radar.

[spospe]

spospe - 2020-02-20 9:50 AM

 

When I tried to visit this website, my McAfee web adviser came up with a, "Whoa, this website seems risky, do you want to go there"

 

Perhaps McAfee is being cautious, but I did not go there.

 

I have tried reaching this website via another route and after getting there I sent an email to the address quoted and guess what? It bounced back as undeliverable, so something about this website is a bit dodgy.

 

 

[slowdriver]

spospe - 2020-02-20 6:45 PM

 

spospe - 2020-02-20 9:50 AM

 

When I tried to visit this website, my McAfee web adviser came up with a, "Whoa, this website seems risky, do you want to go there"

 

Perhaps McAfee is being cautious, but I did not go there.

 

I have tried reaching this website via another route and after getting there I sent an email to the address quoted and guess what? It bounced back as undeliverable, so something about this website is a bit dodgy.

 

 

 

Try this - there was a html coding error in the original link.

 

https://www.stayeuropean.org/

 

It works cleanly for me and I have some very rigorous browser security settings.

 

 

[Wortho]

As I spend 4 months in Sweden each year I am wondering if EU members will be able to negotiate bilateral agreements such as the ones already in place for Australians and Kiwi's. My initial thoughts were that these bilateral agreements only exist as they were in place before the EU was formed and that the EU would not allow its members to negotiate new agreements.

 

I came across this link on the Swedish gov website that states the following and now wondering if indeed individual agreements can still be formed between third countries and the EU members?

 

The approved agreement regulates the relationship between the European Union (EU) and the UK during a transition period after the UK has left the EU. The transition period begins when the agreement enters into effect and will continue until 31 December 2020, with a possibility of extension.

 

During this period, the UK will remain in the EU cooperation in a practical sense. This means that British citizens and their close relatives who are third-country nationals largely keep the rights they previously had. They will thereby be able to stay, work and study in Sweden without requiring a residence and work permit.

 

According to the withdrawal agreement, each member state will formulate a procedure that makes it possible for British citizens to keep their rights even after the transition period. It is the Government that decides what Sweden’s procedure will look like. This website will be updated when more information on this is available" https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/About-the-Migration-Agency/Brexit.html?fbclid=IwAR1qKfI8tHbZEvSSMEFjJYRQ9p8VI0oaMoH5ufES0cDpxiGVg86412Wg5xo

[Tony Jones]

I think you'll find that the "British citizens" referred to here are those who are already legally resident in an EU country by the end of the Transition period, not those who wish to visit without being resident.

All EU governments are in the process of setting up procedures for those UK citizens who have moved there under the EU treaties to keep (largely) the same rights as now, as required by the Withdrawal Agreement.

The Schengen treaty is separate, and there's no mechanism for any individual country to change its provisions.

So I fear that, unless you become legally resident in Sweden this year, your 4 months will have to become 90 days.

Unless, of course, the UK changes its mind about ending Freedom of Movement.

[goldi]

 

 

One things for sure motorhomers wanting to overwinter in Spain will not be on anyones radar.

 

 

 

Good morning,

 

I read yesterday that there are 50000 motorhomers in the Iberian peninsula. You have to ask yourself how long will the Spanish tolerate this. \a post lower down reports on the portuguese situation

[Wortho]

Tony Jones - 2020-02-21 8:31 PM

 

 

The Schengen treaty is separate, and there's no mechanism for any individual country to change its provisions.

So I fear that, unless you become legally resident in Sweden this year, your 4 months will have to become 90 days.

Unless, of course, the UK changes its mind about ending Freedom of Movement.

Thanks Tony that makes sense. I did marry a Swede but have never lived in Sweden for long enough so do not qualify for residence. Another possibility that I may need to explore is this one.

 

an overriding European legislation that gives you the right to exceed the 90 days in Schengen is ‘European Directive 2004/38/EC’ which states citizens of the Union, and their family members can move and reside freely within the Member States’.

[dickydo]

Just a note to thank Brian Kirby for taking the time to offer so much detail - I would not have the knowledge or the patience!!

[Billggski]

......but negotiations on these matters have not yet started.

 

Negotiating positions are being set out, with the UK seemingly wanting "third country" status, but nothing is settled for Jan. 1st.

 

Just back from Switzerland, with a queue of lorries at the border with France.

[Brian Kirby]

Wortho - 2020-02-21 10:56 AM

 

Tony Jones - 2020-02-21 8:31 PM

 

 

The Schengen treaty is separate, and there's no mechanism for any individual country to change its provisions.

So I fear that, unless you become legally resident in Sweden this year, your 4 months will have to become 90 days.

Unless, of course, the UK changes its mind about ending Freedom of Movement.

Thanks Tony that makes sense. I did marry a Swede but have never lived in Sweden for long enough so do not qualify for residence. Another possibility that I may need to explore is this one.

 

an overriding European legislation that gives you the right to exceed the 90 days in Schengen is ‘European Directive 2004/38/EC’ which states citizens of the Union, and their family members can move and reside freely within the Member States’.

1 Does Mrs Wortho have a Swedish passport? 2 Does that allow Mr Wortho to obtain a Swedish passport? If answers 1 and 2 are yes, problem solved! ER, I think! :-D

 

Alternatively, most countries are able to issue long stay visas. Conditions vary, but the visas are still within the gift of the individual member states. Some of these visas are not accepted by any, or all, other states, so may not authorise the visa holder transit rights. However, if travelling direct to the issuing state (in this case Sweden) my reading of the Schengen rule is that it will not apply to time spent within the terms of the visa in that state (or from memory, in other states that recognise that particular visa).

 

If anyone else is interested, I understand the French long stay visa is accepted by all other EU states, but for UK nationals to get one they have to present the required documentation, in person, by prior arrangement, at the French embassy in London, or to one of the UK French consulates - and, of course, pay. :-) When I last tried to extract details of whether the French had yet formulated their policy on issuing these visas to UK nationals post Brexit, their response (reasonably) was along the lines of "as the future relationship between UK and EU is presently unresolved, was cannot say". Oh, the joys of Brexit! :-D

[Tony Jones]

Billggski - 2020-02-21 12:15 PM

 

......but negotiations on these matters have not yet started.

 

Negotiating positions are being set out, with the UK seemingly wanting "third country" status, but nothing is settled for Jan. 1st.

 

Just back from Switzerland, with a queue of lorries at the border with France.

 

There aren't going to BE any negotiations about the Schengen treaty, as that would involve non-EU countries.

 

90/180 from January, unless the UK accepts Freedom of Movement by remaining in the EEA.

[flyboyprowler]

We have a house in Spain, but pay non resident taxes. We do not want to become resident for various reasons. Mainly, I believe that, even as a resident, without being a member of the EU, that we still would not have the right of free EU travel, but could travel unrestricted to and from the country of residence. I.E. your passport gives the right to free travel, as long as that country is in the EU. If this is wrong, please let me know!

[Tony Jones]

Sorry Ainsley, I think you've been misinformed.

You're fine this year, but after Transition you'll be restricted to 90 days in the Schengen zone out of any (rolling) period of 180.

If you become formally resident this year, that won't apply to the time you spend in your host country, but will apply to time in any other Schengen countries.

Owning a home won't exempt you.

[Brian Kirby]

It might pay you to research this further, Ainsley.

 

My present understanding is that if you qualify for residence in (in your case Spain) an EU state, it is the individual state that sets the qualifying criteria. If you have residency, you then have the right to stay in that country for whatever duration the residency permits. So, were you to travel direct by ferry or air between UK and Spain, although you would need to enter Schengen at the Spanish port/airport, your periods in residence do not count against your 90/180 days allowance. It is not clear how that formality is dealt with at the border, but I assume must involve presenting your passport and residency certificate to the border guard, and again when you leave.

 

OTOH, if you elect to drive to Spain via France, you would enter Schengen at the French border, when your entry into Schengen will be recorded, and would then need your entry into Spain as a resident to be recorded so that your 90/180 days allowance only relates to the time spent in Schengen while transiting France.

 

Aside from your transit periods (which you would unavoidably use some of your 90/180 days allowance), you would, as I understand it, retain the balance of your 90/180 allowance for travel outside Spain.

 

I didn't explore this in any depth, as it is not relevant to our circumstances, but what was not immediately apparent is how, having arrived in your country of residence, you "switch off" the 90/180 days rule, and switch it back on again when you leave Spain and re-enter France through the open Schengen border.

 

The principle seems reasonably clear from Article 6 of EU Regulation (EU) 2016/399, which states: "For the purposes of implementing paragraph 1, the date of entry shall be considered as the first day of stay on the territory of the Member States and the date of exit shall be considered as the last day of stay on the territory of the Member States. Periods of stay authorised under a residence permit or a long-stay visa shall not be taken into account in the calculation of the duration of stay on the territory of the Member States." (My bold above)

 

What is not clear, is how you get that period of stay excluded from your 90/180 days allowance. But it says you can, so it must be so! :-D

 

However, if you want to obtain Spanish residency, I think you may have to do so during the transition period. Once we leave transition, I think the conditions for application may become more onerous.

 

Plus, Tony thinks so too! :-)

[Tony Jones]

Yes, I'm still puzzled about how it will be enforced in practice.

As a French resident, I can spend as much time in France as I want. But after Transition, as a UK citizen, I'll be limited to 90/180 in the REST of the zone.

But with no internal border checks (on land), how will my comings and goings be recorded? I suspect they won't, and I'll only be caught if I have an accident or commit an offence. But that doesn't make it legal!

[flyboyprowler]

Thank you Tony and Brian, as ever, great information. This was also my understanding of the rules as they currently stand. However, if resident in a European country, my understanding was that the time getting directly to or from your country of Nationality would not count towards your 90 days in 180, and that would rule out the problem of having a stamp, or whatever, in the passport when you leave Schengen into your country of residence. And, if that is so, then cheekily, you may choose, and get away with, a few extra days travelling on route!

Most people will be totally unaffected by the new rules, but sadly, it's only the likes of those who want to travel extensively that will be affected. I can only hope that, if the EU citizenship poll does not succeed (and it looks like it will not) then maybe we should press for a renewable Euro travel visa, and what harm could that do to the community? (lol)

[malc d]

Tony Jones - 2020-02-21 7:15 PM

 

 

But with no internal border checks (on land), how will my comings and goings be recorded?

 

 

 

They will be tracking your phone Tony.

 

;-)

 

( Or maybe your number plate ? )

[Billggski]

Passports don't need to be stamped to prove entry/exit.

Once you use a card, telephone or computer your location is recorded and your stay can be calculated.

My phone welcomes me to any country I enter, and when I buy fuel it responds to me in English

Big brother is watching you!

[Bulletguy]

malc d - 2020-02-20 3:59 PM

 

goldi - 2020-02-20 3:48 PM

 

Good afternoon,

 

After reading what you have written Brian the EU begins to look more like a soviet tyranny and I am glad we are not art of it, even if it means We cannot go to the Eu as and when we want but there is always other places in the world. It would not be good for all the French motorhome manufacturers if they could not sell their vehicles because of the displeasure they have inflicted on us and what about the 12 to 20 million euros that come with the fines I suppose they would have to sacrifice that too.

 

 

I can't see that the EU is " inflicting " anything on " us " .

 

It was " us " that decided to leave.

 

:-|

Exactly......Goldi is somewhat confused. :-S

[Bulletguy]

slowdriver - 2020-02-20 4:42 PM

 

goldi - 2020-02-20 3:48 PM

 

 

Good afternoon,

 

After reading what you have written Brian the EU begins to look more like a soviet tyranny and I am glad we are not art of it, even if it means We cannot go to the Eu as and when we want but there is always other places in the world. It would not be good for all the French motorhome manufacturers if they could not sell their vehicles because of the displeasure they have inflicted on us and what about the 12 to 20 million euros that come with the fines I suppose they would have to sacrifice that too.

 

I am struggling to see my local bowls club as a Soviet tyranny, but by your logic it is. I was a member for many years, but then decided to cancel my subscription. For many years, (40 odd), I used to simply pitch up and play as often as I wanted, and as long as I want. Because I am no longer a member a different set of rules now apply to me. I can still get a game of bowls there, on a pay as you go basis, but when I can play, and for how long, is subject to a different set of rules. The existing members consider that, since they pay an annual subscription, they should have a different and superior set of rights to me. What exactly is tyrannical about that? or indeed Soviet for that matter?

This analogy is absolutely 100% spot on.

[Bulletguy]

Barryd999 - 2020-02-20 6:19 PM

 

One things for sure motorhomers wanting to overwinter in Spain will not be on anyones radar.

Once the transition period comes to an end they certainly will and it's very simple to implement and police. Brits 'Snowbirding' days are over.

[niktam]

Just seeking clarification. We have a property in Spain and we are UK residents and pay taxes in the UK(and have no intention of becoming Spanish residents). Present status is that we may be able to apply for a Spanish Visa which will allow us to stay for more than 90 days in Spain. This time spent in Spain may not count towards the 90 in 180 day rule but we aren't sure how this will work as if we drive down to Spain there is no way of "stopping" our 90 days being used up as this will kick in at the Eurotunnel?