Travel within the EU in 2020

[Wortho]

Brian Kirby - 2020-02-21 11:17 PM

1 Does Mrs Wortho have a Swedish passport? 2 Does that allow Mr Wortho to obtain a Swedish passport? If answers 1 and 2 are yes, problem solved! ER, I think! :-D

We did enquire about whether I could get Swedish Citizenship/Passport but they said we had to actually live in Sweden. I guess we could move there and then apply but I have no desires to spend any more winters there :-D I think the easy way around the 90 days for me is to use Aussie passport and bilateral agreements but really need to arrive in another country such as Germany first to avoid the problems of "overstaying" like I had in Denmark a couple of years ago.

[flyboyprowler]

niktam - 2020-02-21 10:13 PM

 

Just seeking clarification. We have a property in Spain and we are UK residents and pay taxes in the UK(and have no intention of becoming Spanish residents). Present status is that we may be able to apply for a Spanish Visa which will allow us to stay for more than 90 days in Spain. This time spent in Spain may not count towards the 90 in 180 day rule but we aren't sure how this will work as if we drive down to Spain there is no way of "stopping" our 90 days being used up as this will kick in at the Eurotunnel?

 

Everything will require clarification. However, I believe that the time spent driving to, in this case, Spain will not count towards the 90 days spent in the EU (Schengen included) However, some form of "immigration" procedure will need to be available to show that you are now entering your visa resident country, and indeed when you leave, be it to return to the UK, or to use some or all of your 90 days in the rest of the EU before returning. Personally, I think it will be very difficult if not impossible to police, and if a self policed system, allowing the traveller to record their own entry and exit dates would be allowed, then that would be wide open to abuse. Really confusing, it is!! 8-)

[Barryd999]

flyboyprowler - 2020-02-22 8:40 AM

 

niktam - 2020-02-21 10:13 PM

 

Just seeking clarification. We have a property in Spain and we are UK residents and pay taxes in the UK(and have no intention of becoming Spanish residents). Present status is that we may be able to apply for a Spanish Visa which will allow us to stay for more than 90 days in Spain. This time spent in Spain may not count towards the 90 in 180 day rule but we aren't sure how this will work as if we drive down to Spain there is no way of "stopping" our 90 days being used up as this will kick in at the Eurotunnel?

 

Everything will require clarification. However, I believe that the time spent driving to, in this case, Spain will not count towards the 90 days spent in the EU (Schengen included) However, some form of "immigration" procedure will need to be available to show that you are now entering your visa resident country, and indeed when you leave, be it to return to the UK, or to use some or all of your 90 days in the rest of the EU before returning. Personally, I think it will be very difficult if not impossible to police, and if a self policed system, allowing the traveller to record their own entry and exit dates would be allowed, then that would be wide open to abuse. Really confusing, it is!! 8-)

 

Except its not confusing. The Schengen system has been in use for 25 years its just we never needed to worry about it as we had free movement as EU citizens. These rules have applied for other third countries since it came into force in the 90s.

 

The new Schengen database systems came online last year I believe and its very easy to police. Whether you arrive by plane, boat or on foot your registered as entering the zone as soon as you arrive and of course de-registered when you leave. Travelling time to get to Spain will not be added on as a "bit extra".

 

I dare say if you hung around in Spain all winter nobody would know unless you were unlucky enough to maybe have an accident or get pulled over by plod but the way you would get caught out is when you present yourself at a Schengen border when you come to leave. If your over your 90 days then they will know straight away. People have been getting heavy fines for this for many years and you can be refused entry in the future.

 

There is a campaign to retain EU citizenship for those that want it (Presumably just those who voted remain I would hope) but it has no chance. This is what the majority of people want though isnt it? To end freedom of movement. Perhaps they thought it wouldnt apply to "Their" Free movement.

[colin]

Barryd999 - 2020-02-22 11:13 AM

 

flyboyprowler - 2020-02-22 8:40 AM

 

niktam - 2020-02-21 10:13 PM

 

Just seeking clarification. We have a property in Spain and we are UK residents and pay taxes in the UK(and have no intention of becoming Spanish residents). Present status is that we may be able to apply for a Spanish Visa which will allow us to stay for more than 90 days in Spain. This time spent in Spain may not count towards the 90 in 180 day rule but we aren't sure how this will work as if we drive down to Spain there is no way of "stopping" our 90 days being used up as this will kick in at the Eurotunnel?

 

Everything will require clarification. However, I believe that the time spent driving to, in this case, Spain will not count towards the 90 days spent in the EU (Schengen included) However, some form of "immigration" procedure will need to be available to show that you are now entering your visa resident country, and indeed when you leave, be it to return to the UK, or to use some or all of your 90 days in the rest of the EU before returning. Personally, I think it will be very difficult if not impossible to police, and if a self policed system, allowing the traveller to record their own entry and exit dates would be allowed, then that would be wide open to abuse. Really confusing, it is!! 8-)

 

Except its not confusing. The Schengen system has been in use for 25 years its just we never needed to worry about it as we had free movement as EU citizens. These rules have applied for other third countries since it came into force in the 90s.

 

The new Schengen database systems came online last year I believe and its very easy to police. Whether you arrive by plane, boat or on foot your registered as entering the zone as soon as you arrive and of course de-registered when you leave. Travelling time to get to Spain will not be added on as a "bit extra".

 

I dare say if you hung around in Spain all winter nobody would know unless you were unlucky enough to maybe have an accident or get pulled over by plod but the way you would get caught out is when you present yourself at a Schengen border when you come to leave. If your over your 90 days then they will know straight away. People have been getting heavy fines for this for many years and you can be refused entry in the future.

 

There is a campaign to retain EU citizenship for those that want it (Presumably just those who voted remain I would hope) but it has no chance. This is what the majority of people want though isnt it? To end freedom of movement. Perhaps they thought it wouldnt apply to "Their" Free movement.

 

You don't seem to have read the posts, this was not about a person traveling around spain in a motorhome, it was about someone with legal authority to be in spain longer than 90 days (i.e. a visa for property) but having no way of 'switching off' Schengen time when crossing from france to spain or visa versa.

[Barryd999]

colin - 2020-02-22 11:31 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-02-22 11:13 AM

 

flyboyprowler - 2020-02-22 8:40 AM

 

niktam - 2020-02-21 10:13 PM

 

Just seeking clarification. We have a property in Spain and we are UK residents and pay taxes in the UK(and have no intention of becoming Spanish residents). Present status is that we may be able to apply for a Spanish Visa which will allow us to stay for more than 90 days in Spain. This time spent in Spain may not count towards the 90 in 180 day rule but we aren't sure how this will work as if we drive down to Spain there is no way of "stopping" our 90 days being used up as this will kick in at the Eurotunnel?

 

Everything will require clarification. However, I believe that the time spent driving to, in this case, Spain will not count towards the 90 days spent in the EU (Schengen included) However, some form of "immigration" procedure will need to be available to show that you are now entering your visa resident country, and indeed when you leave, be it to return to the UK, or to use some or all of your 90 days in the rest of the EU before returning. Personally, I think it will be very difficult if not impossible to police, and if a self policed system, allowing the traveller to record their own entry and exit dates would be allowed, then that would be wide open to abuse. Really confusing, it is!! 8-)

 

Except its not confusing. The Schengen system has been in use for 25 years its just we never needed to worry about it as we had free movement as EU citizens. These rules have applied for other third countries since it came into force in the 90s.

 

The new Schengen database systems came online last year I believe and its very easy to police. Whether you arrive by plane, boat or on foot your registered as entering the zone as soon as you arrive and of course de-registered when you leave. Travelling time to get to Spain will not be added on as a "bit extra".

 

I dare say if you hung around in Spain all winter nobody would know unless you were unlucky enough to maybe have an accident or get pulled over by plod but the way you would get caught out is when you present yourself at a Schengen border when you come to leave. If your over your 90 days then they will know straight away. People have been getting heavy fines for this for many years and you can be refused entry in the future.

 

There is a campaign to retain EU citizenship for those that want it (Presumably just those who voted remain I would hope) but it has no chance. This is what the majority of people want though isnt it? To end freedom of movement. Perhaps they thought it wouldnt apply to "Their" Free movement.

 

You don't seem to have read the posts, this was not about a person traveling around spain in a motorhome, it was about someone with legal authority to be in spain longer than 90 days (i.e. a visa for property) but having no way of 'switching off' Schengen time when crossing from france to spain or visa versa.

 

They wont have legal authority to stay in Spain though post transition without some kind of residency permit or citizenship I believe or possibly a Padron if they have property. Without some kind of residency the Schengen rules will apply.

[Brian Kirby]

Billggski - 2020-02-21 8:51 PM

 

Passports don't need to be stamped to prove entry/exit.

Once you use a card, telephone or computer your location is recorded and your stay can be calculated.

My phone welcomes me to any country I enter, and when I buy fuel it responds to me in English

Big brother is watching you!

That is true, but under the EU Regulation instanced in my above post, third country national's passports have to be stamped on entering/leaving Schengen or post ETIAS, will be entered on the ETIAS database.

 

If Ainsley is correct about the travel to/from the residency location being exempt (I haven't checked this, so am not doubting it :-)), then the fun really starts, especially if, for example the residency is held in Spain/Italy, necessitating transiting any state between a UK port of departure and the residency. Having Spanish residency, for example, could one really claim to have entered Spain via Italy, Greece, and France, and to whom, and where, would that claim have to be made? Might get a bit tricky when leaving Schengen to go home after six months to have one's passport examined to reveal only a six month old entry stamp plus Spanish residency, with an identifiable trail of other EU states, and merely a nice smile as a defence! Definitely worth checking the detail if it affects you, I think!

[flyboyprowler]

Absolutely right Brian. But the difference between a residents permit, and a visa to remain in the country is probably a thin line. I feel that a residents visa in, say Spain, will hold little weight when travelling in another country, especially when the entry point to the EU was anywhere other than Spain, and that shows the owner has been in the EU for more than 90 days. It would be up to the person to prove, in some way, the dates they arrived and left Spain to show that the 90 days have not been spent in the rest of Europe. Citizenship is different as the citizenship of the country will dictate the travelling rights of the individual.

I suppose that the right thing to do is, of course wait and see what the final outcome of negotiations will be, and make a decision from there.

One thing I learned today, was that if your dog holds a valid EU (in our case, Spanish) passport, then there will not be any restriction on the pets travel. This apparently came from DEFRA. Spooky that the dog has better travelling rights than its owners!!

[Billggski]

An interesting point, if you get your pets a French passport, or any eu country, will it still be valid for travel next year?

 

https://wheelingit.us/2018/09/01/pet-passports-registering-pets-in-france/

[Ocsid]

flyboyprowler - 2020-02-22 2:02 PM

 

This apparently came from DEFRA. Spooky that the dog has better travelling rights than its owners!!

 

Fair is fair, it did not vote to change everything ;-) ;-)

[flyboyprowler]

Billggski - 2020-02-22 2:31 PM

 

An interesting point, if you get your pets a French passport, or any eu country, will it still be valid for travel next year?

 

https://wheelingit.us/2018/09/01/pet-passports-registering-pets-in-france/

 

Apparently, according to DEFRA, yes, but my info is second hand.

[Bulletguy]

colin - 2020-02-22 11:31 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-02-22 11:13 AM

 

flyboyprowler - 2020-02-22 8:40 AM

 

niktam - 2020-02-21 10:13 PM

 

Just seeking clarification. We have a property in Spain and we are UK residents and pay taxes in the UK(and have no intention of becoming Spanish residents). Present status is that we may be able to apply for a Spanish Visa which will allow us to stay for more than 90 days in Spain. This time spent in Spain may not count towards the 90 in 180 day rule but we aren't sure how this will work as if we drive down to Spain there is no way of "stopping" our 90 days being used up as this will kick in at the Eurotunnel?

 

Everything will require clarification. However, I believe that the time spent driving to, in this case, Spain will not count towards the 90 days spent in the EU (Schengen included) However, some form of "immigration" procedure will need to be available to show that you are now entering your visa resident country, and indeed when you leave, be it to return to the UK, or to use some or all of your 90 days in the rest of the EU before returning. Personally, I think it will be very difficult if not impossible to police, and if a self policed system, allowing the traveller to record their own entry and exit dates would be allowed, then that would be wide open to abuse. Really confusing, it is!! 8-)

 

Except its not confusing. The Schengen system has been in use for 25 years its just we never needed to worry about it as we had free movement as EU citizens. These rules have applied for other third countries since it came into force in the 90s.

 

The new Schengen database systems came online last year I believe and its very easy to police. Whether you arrive by plane, boat or on foot your registered as entering the zone as soon as you arrive and of course de-registered when you leave. Travelling time to get to Spain will not be added on as a "bit extra".

 

I dare say if you hung around in Spain all winter nobody would know unless you were unlucky enough to maybe have an accident or get pulled over by plod but the way you would get caught out is when you present yourself at a Schengen border when you come to leave. If your over your 90 days then they will know straight away. People have been getting heavy fines for this for many years and you can be refused entry in the future.

 

There is a campaign to retain EU citizenship for those that want it (Presumably just those who voted remain I would hope) but it has no chance. This is what the majority of people want though isnt it? To end freedom of movement. Perhaps they thought it wouldnt apply to "Their" Free movement.

 

You don't seem to have read the posts, this was not about a person traveling around spain in a motorhome, it was about someone with legal authority to be in spain longer than 90 days (i.e. a visa for property) but having no way of 'switching off' Schengen time when crossing from france to spain or visa versa.

The thread started out as the former Colin but a couple of posters own a property so it began to morph into the latter which isn't quite the same. I think Tony Jones is resident in France and Flyboy and Niktam own a property in Spain, but neither plan to live there. In both cases you've got the issue of residency, which is one thing, and citizenship which is another, the latter giving total security.

 

Apparently Brits seeking citizenship have until the end of the year in which to apply but it seems it's not that simple. This Brit has lived in France for 27 years and his children are French born, but his application for citizenship has been rejected. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-51280617

[Bulletguy]

Barryd999 - 2020-02-22 12:07 PM

 

colin - 2020-02-22 11:31 AM

 

Barryd999 - 2020-02-22 11:13 AM

 

flyboyprowler - 2020-02-22 8:40 AM

 

niktam - 2020-02-21 10:13 PM

 

Just seeking clarification. We have a property in Spain and we are UK residents and pay taxes in the UK(and have no intention of becoming Spanish residents). Present status is that we may be able to apply for a Spanish Visa which will allow us to stay for more than 90 days in Spain. This time spent in Spain may not count towards the 90 in 180 day rule but we aren't sure how this will work as if we drive down to Spain there is no way of "stopping" our 90 days being used up as this will kick in at the Eurotunnel?

 

Everything will require clarification. However, I believe that the time spent driving to, in this case, Spain will not count towards the 90 days spent in the EU (Schengen included) However, some form of "immigration" procedure will need to be available to show that you are now entering your visa resident country, and indeed when you leave, be it to return to the UK, or to use some or all of your 90 days in the rest of the EU before returning. Personally, I think it will be very difficult if not impossible to police, and if a self policed system, allowing the traveller to record their own entry and exit dates would be allowed, then that would be wide open to abuse. Really confusing, it is!! 8-)

 

Except its not confusing. The Schengen system has been in use for 25 years its just we never needed to worry about it as we had free movement as EU citizens. These rules have applied for other third countries since it came into force in the 90s.

 

The new Schengen database systems came online last year I believe and its very easy to police. Whether you arrive by plane, boat or on foot your registered as entering the zone as soon as you arrive and of course de-registered when you leave. Travelling time to get to Spain will not be added on as a "bit extra".

 

I dare say if you hung around in Spain all winter nobody would know unless you were unlucky enough to maybe have an accident or get pulled over by plod but the way you would get caught out is when you present yourself at a Schengen border when you come to leave. If your over your 90 days then they will know straight away. People have been getting heavy fines for this for many years and you can be refused entry in the future.

 

There is a campaign to retain EU citizenship for those that want it (Presumably just those who voted remain I would hope) but it has no chance. This is what the majority of people want though isnt it? To end freedom of movement. Perhaps they thought it wouldnt apply to "Their" Free movement.

 

You don't seem to have read the posts, this was not about a person traveling around spain in a motorhome, it was about someone with legal authority to be in spain longer than 90 days (i.e. a visa for property) but having no way of 'switching off' Schengen time when crossing from france to spain or visa versa.

 

They wont have legal authority to stay in Spain though post transition without some kind of residency permit or citizenship I believe or possibly a Padron if they have property. Without some kind of residency the Schengen rules will apply.

Lets stop dancing around with 'niceties' Barry and cut to the chase. When you have genuine Brit immigrants living the year round in permanently sited trailers, vans and park homes at registered sites concerned for their future status in their country of choice where some have lived for many years, tourists spending winter months in mh's/campervans they travel back to UK in every six months, using a campsite address to claim "residency" isn't going to cut it with authorities on either side of the fence. They are an overstayer, end of. If not caught in the country they've been overstaying, then they will when they attempt to re-enter their genuine country of residence.

 

They should have thought about this four years ago.

[Billggski]

Recent post

 

How to Get a Pet Passport

 

I obtained an EU Pet Passport for my dog during a six-month stay in Paris. At first, I was worried that not having EU citizenship or permanent resident status would disqualify me from applying. I found out this was not true.

 

It was an easy exercise and completed in a 30-minute visit to a veterinarian clinic. The cost was 70 Euros, and when compared to what I spent for Danny’s Annex IV ($150 USD all in), very reasonable.

 

The steps to obtaining a pet passport are simple. The first is to make an appointment with an official EU veterinarian (nearly all practicing vets in Europe are “official”).

 

A quick Google search for English-speaking vets led me to Dr. Pierre Metivet in Paris. When making the appointment, tell the office staff the purpose is to obtain an EU Pet Passport.

 

You will need to bring the following items when meeting with the veterinarian:

 

Annex IV form completed by your home vet and endorsed by your country’s official veterinary regulatory body (USDA in the United States),

Your pet’s current rabies certificate or rabies titre test results no less than 21 days old

Microchip information, date of implantation, chip number and issuing company information (this info is also on the Annex IV)

At the Vet Appointment

 

At the appointment, the attending veterinarian or staff will take your pet’s vital signs, scan for a microchip and address any health concerns or questions you have. The veterinarian will perform a basic health exam on your pet, review your paperwork and fill out the passport book.

 

If you plan to travel to the UK, Ireland, Malta, Finland or Norway during your Europe stay, be sure to ask the veterinarian about additional entry requirements for these countries. Each requires a tapeworm treatment to be given within 1 to 5 days before arrival. Your EU vet can advise you on the appropriate timing of the medication dose.

[teccer1234]

for the last 24 years we've stayed in Spain for 6 months in the winter so how will this affect me as we've got Irish passport= EU citizen,

thoughts??

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2020-02-22 12:07 PM...…………………..

They wont have legal authority to stay in Spain though post transition without some kind of residency permit or citizenship I believe or possibly a Padron if they have property. Without some kind of residency the Schengen rules will apply.

The alternative is a long stay visa. But, from what I have read, the visas are issued by the individual states, and the terms for granting the visa, its duration, and the time in country granted, are all set by the issuing state. Some visas are accepted by all EU states (for example, I understand those issued by France are) whereas other visas are not. The visa will state its terms, is affixed in the passport and, I understand, "trumps" Schengen. I think what Nicholas really needs to do is explore his alternatives with the Spanish embassy in London.

 

It seems he has two choices, first obtain residency (I don't think the "padron" has any validity under Schengen), which he could do if he chooses (residency in Spain would not, as I understand it, imply losing UK residency, because as he is domiciled in UK so can also legally hold residency elsewhere), or obtaining a long stay visa.

 

Only the Spanish embassy can confirm, with authority, their national policy on either/both.

 

Since there is no-one (so far as I know) on here who has experience of operating either option as a third country national, all the rest of us can do is reiterate what we have gleaned from our researches, or guess! I assume his eventual decision will rest on whichever offers the best combination of duration, flexibility, and cost.

 

Perhaps Nicholas might come back to us when he has his answers and tell us how he got on?

[Brian Kirby]

teccer1234 - 2020-02-22 4:45 PM

 

for the last 24 years we've stayed in Spain for 6 months in the winter so how will this affect me as we've got Irish passport= EU citizen,

thoughts??

As you have Irish passports, you should not be affected at all, as you will continue to enjoy the same travel privileges as we Bruits had before Brexit. However, as with all things Brexit, check this as it is only my understanding, gained from elsewhere, and the world is awash with duff info. When you get a concrete answer, I assume from the Irish embassy, perhaps you could come back and tell us?

[slowdriver]

Brian Kirby - 2020-02-22 5:24 PM

 

teccer1234 - 2020-02-22 4:45 PM

 

for the last 24 years we've stayed in Spain for 6 months in the winter so how will this affect me as we've got Irish passport= EU citizen,

thoughts??

As you have Irish passports, you should not be affected at all, as you will continue to enjoy the same travel privileges as we Bruits had before Brexit. However, as with all things Brexit, check this as it is only my understanding, gained from elsewhere, and the world is awash with duff info. When you get a concrete answer, I assume from the Irish embassy, perhaps you could come back and tell us?

 

This is a note about tax and therefore a little off the point, but worth bearing in mind, I think:

If a British citizen resident in the UK, has an Irish grandparent and has an Irish Passport as well as his UK passport, he or she can, of course, spend an unlimited time in Europe via the Irish passport. However in France at least I believe it is important not to exceed 180 days in any one year (I think that is a Calendar year) because if one does there are some potential negative tax consequences. I believe that if you do exceed 180 (it might be 183 ) days in 365 then technically for tax purposes the French local and national government are entitled to treat you as resident in France and could apply French income and capital gains tax rules. The same may apply to Spain. It seems likely to me that whereas until this January local and national tax authorities were not paying too much attention to these issues, this is marginally less likely to be the case now. Assuming they are not limited by any EU privacy regulation then with access to the new, shortly to be deployed ETIAS database, the tax authorities will have a more streamlined method of identifying a new tax revenue stream. This is something, in my experience, few governments can resist :-(

[BruceM]

teccer1234 - 2020-02-22 4:45 PM

 

for the last 24 years we've stayed in Spain for 6 months in the winter so how will this affect me as we've got Irish passport= EU citizen,

thoughts??

 

Whilst I'd agree with the nother responses to your question the one thing I’d be wary of is health cover. If you are an Irish Republic national and resident in the Republic of Ireland and therefore currently covered by the Irish heath service then nothing should change for you. If however you are resident in the UK and consequently covered by the British health service (you’d have a UK National Insurance number rather than an Irish equivalent) then I suspect you may loose the health benefits of being an EU citizen when you travel within the EU.

[Wortho]

Brian Kirby - 2020-02-23 4:06 AM

 

 

The alternative is a long stay visa.

 

I asked the Danish Embassy about a long stay visa when I was travelling on an Aussie passport. They said visa's were only available to residents of countries that did not qualify for the 90 day visa free travel. I was also told that longer stay visa's were sometimes granted for business purposes.

 

I had problems leaving Denmark 2 years ago on an Aussie passport as total stay in EU was 4 months. They questioned me and I explained that I had only spent 1 day in Denmark and the bulk of the trip was in Spain and Portugal in our campervan. I offered to show receipts etc and phone roaming records but the immigration official was not interested and called the Police for advice. The Police told the official to release me with a warning and that I must show an itinerary of intended travel in the future *-) Australia has a bilateral agreement with Denmark so you can spend a 90 days in another Schenghen country and a further 90 days in Denmark. The problem is you really need to arrive in the other Schenghen country first to avoid problems when departing.

[Fifo]

Bulletguy - 2020-02-22 3:38 PM

 

There is a campaign to retain EU citizenship for those that want it (Presumably just those who voted remain I would hope) but it has no chance. This is what the majority of people want though isnt it? To end freedom of movement. Perhaps they thought it wouldnt apply to "Their" Free movement.

 

From the sunny bits of Spain we are currently over-wintering in I can see no wish by Spanish campsite owners, restauranteurs, shopkeepers and ordinary Spanish citizens to end free movement of, specifically, UK citizens.

 

Being able to retain EU citizenship or creating long term “ holiday” visas for those of retirement age who clearly have no wish to take jobs in Europe is a win- win situation for all parties, including the UK NHS and social setvices.

 

The snag is that any attempt via national newspapers, letters to MPs etc to raise the issue inevitably involves admitting that your UK house is empty for long periods and so is less safe. This is something that many are unwilling to do.

 

We do have the 2 main clubs, both of whom sell long term stays in Spain to UK members, and it is they who should lobby on our behalf.

 

Cutting to the chase, to borrow a phrase, what exactly is wrong with a UK tax payer travelling in Europe for extended periods ? Except for periods of war or plague we have been able to travel freely for centuries.

 

 

[BruceM]

Fifo - 2020-02-23 9:48 AM

 

Cutting to the chase, to borrow a phrase, what exactly is wrong with a UK tax payer travelling in Europe for extended periods ? Except for periods of war or plague we have been able to travel freely for centuries.

 

 

What is ‘wrong’ is that it will be illegal.

 

Or to look at it another way, would the UK government be happy for Polish, Rumanians, Pakistanis, Americans, Chinese, Russians, Iranians etc etc to travel for ‘extended periods’ in the UK?

 

There will be nothing special about UK citizens from 1st Jan 2021, we’ll just be nationals of a ‘3rd country’ and will be subject to the laws that govern such nationals, that's what the UK voted for.

 

Incidentally, whilst the Spanish economy values the tourist trade, the majority of the British element of that comes from short term holidaymakers during the summer. The economic impact of medium term stayers such as winter motorhomes is relatively small and of minor economic consideration at a national level. So don’t expect special treatment. A few campsite owners suffering is not going to worry the Spanish government especially when there are bigger prizes in sight (eg Gibraltar).

 

 

[slowdriver]

Fifo - 2020-02-23 9:48 AM

 

From the sunny bits of Spain we are currently over-wintering in I can see no wish by Spanish campsite owners, restauranteurs, shopkeepers and ordinary Spanish citizens to end free movement of, specifically, UK citizens.

 

There is no wish amongst a sizeable proportion of the UK population (not, to be sure, a majority) to restrict free movement of Europeans into the UK, but the new laws now being introduced after the Referendum result and the most recent General Election in the UK will do just that. There is not much point in me complaining about that. Regret it, yes, but the reality is that free movement of citizens of the European Union to the UK is coming to an end. Likewise free movement of citizens of the UK to the European Union is changing (90 days out of a 180 day window etc). I may not like it, just as you claim the Spanish campsite owner's don't like it. It is inconvenient for me, it's inconvenient for them, and it's going to inconvenient for those MotorHomers who have been used to staying anywhere in the European Union for more than 90 days. The majority of whom are no doubt in Spain right now. But it is, as they say, what it is.

 

Being able to retain EU citizenship or creating long term “ holiday” visas for those of retirement age who clearly have no wish to take jobs in Europe is a win- win situation for all parties, including the UK NHS and social services.

 

Not a bad idea but a bit of a bureaucratic nightmare: firstly I think this would need a Treaty change - (think of the difficulty getting through the Lisbon and Maastricht Treaties.) Secondly on the domestic front why should "those of retirement age" have privileged access? Why should not any UK citizen who has the means to support him or herself for whatever duration they want, and with the necessary supplementary healthcare insurance, be able to have access to the countries of the European Union via such a visa? It's not the easiest sell politically. I take your point about the advantages to the NHS and social services.

 

 

 

The snag is that any attempt via national newspapers, letters to MPs etc to raise the issue inevitably involves admitting that your UK house is empty for long periods and so is less safe. This is something that many are unwilling to do.

 

If there is a market of sufficient size for an insurance policy that covers your house unoccupied for more than the current limit - (is that 90 days?) I would imagine the ever inventive UK insurance industry will come up with a solution. It might not be cheap however, and certainly not as cheap as ducking the requirements of your current home insurance, not to leave your house unoccupied.

 

Cutting to the chase, to borrow a phrase, what exactly is wrong with a UK tax payer travelling in Europe for extended periods ? Except for periods of war or plague we have been able to travel freely for centuries.

 

Legally it will clearly be wrong because you will be breaking the the laws of the countries you visit and the EU. Whether or not you pay tax or not in the UK is, I think, irrelevant to the point you are making.

Morally - personally I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting or indeed doing it, but then neither, in that case, would it be morally wrong for any citizens of the EU to want to, and to come to, the UK on the same basis. Which may not please some people. More to the point you would be an illegal immigrant and depending on what country is involved that could be a painful experience.

 

Lastly I thought it might be useful to re-post a link included on an earlier discussion on the Schengen area 90 day visa. It is an easy to use calculator that gives a good indication of which patterns of visiting will work, and which will not.

 

https://adambard.github.io/schengencalc/

 

 

 

[Bulletguy]

Fifo - 2020-02-23 9:48 AM

 

Bulletguy - 2020-02-22 3:38 PM

 

There is a campaign to retain EU citizenship for those that want it (Presumably just those who voted remain I would hope) but it has no chance. This is what the majority of people want though isnt it? To end freedom of movement. Perhaps they thought it wouldnt apply to "Their" Free movement.

 

From the sunny bits of Spain we are currently over-wintering in I can see no wish by Spanish campsite owners, restauranteurs, shopkeepers and ordinary Spanish citizens to end free movement of, specifically, UK citizens.

 

Being able to retain EU citizenship or creating long term “ holiday” visas for those of retirement age who clearly have no wish to take jobs in Europe is a win- win situation for all parties, including the UK NHS and social setvices.

 

The snag is that any attempt via national newspapers, letters to MPs etc to raise the issue inevitably involves admitting that your UK house is empty for long periods and so is less safe. This is something that many are unwilling to do.

 

We do have the 2 main clubs, both of whom sell long term stays in Spain to UK members, and it is they who should lobby on our behalf.

 

Cutting to the chase, to borrow a phrase, what exactly is wrong with a UK tax payer travelling in Europe for extended periods ? Except for periods of war or plague we have been able to travel freely for centuries.

Fifo,

 

i don't know where you took that quote from but it certainly wasn't from any of my posts. :-S

 

Ending fom was part of the Leave campaign which people voted for apparently believing it would be a 'one way street'. Some have now realised this will not be the case which has resulted in them frantically searching for any loophole they can find no matter how flimsy and 'suspect' to attempt to circumvent the ruling and in some cases, simply going down the legit route and moving altogether to take up residence within an EU country.....the very thing they voted against. I'll leave you to make your own judgement on that but to me it speaks volumes!

 

With regards to the question in your final para, BruceM has answered that one for you.

[Bulletguy]

slowdriver - 2020-02-23 11:28 AM

 

Fifo - 2020-02-23 9:48 AM

 

From the sunny bits of Spain we are currently over-wintering in I can see no wish by Spanish campsite owners, restauranteurs, shopkeepers and ordinary Spanish citizens to end free movement of, specifically, UK citizens.

 

There is no wish amongst a sizeable proportion of the UK population (not, to be sure, a majority) to restrict free movement of Europeans into the UK, but the new laws now being introduced after the Referendum result and the most recent General Election in the UK will do just that. There is not much point in me complaining about that. Regret it, yes, but the reality is that free movement of citizens of the European Union to the UK is coming to an end. Likewise free movement of citizens of the UK to the European Union is changing (90 days out of a 180 day window etc). I may not like it, just as you claim the Spanish campsite owner's don't like it. It is inconvenient for me, it's inconvenient for them, and it's going to inconvenient for those MotorHomers who have been used to staying anywhere in the European Union for more than 90 days. The majority of whom are no doubt in Spain right now. But it is, as they say, what it is.

I continue to be amazed at the number who still appear oblivious to this.....either that or they do really know, but think by burying their heads it will just go away and not affect them. The other week i'm listening to a guy on a newsclip from Liverpool who decided to move his family out to Spain "because Spain isn't like the EU and my family will have better opportunities than the UK....". He voted Leave in the referendum. :-|

 

Another Brit already living in Spain who terms the Spanish as "proper Europeans when British are British wherever we go....". Naturally he didn't speak Spanish. These are the same people that complain about foreigners who come to UK but don't speak the language and don't integrate.

 

 

Legally it will clearly be wrong because you will be breaking the the laws of the countries you visit and the EU. Whether or not you pay tax or not in the UK is, I think, irrelevant to the point you are making.

Morally - personally I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting or indeed doing it, but then neither, in that case, would it be morally wrong for any citizens of the EU to want to, and to come to, the UK on the same basis. Which may not please some people. More to the point you would be an illegal immigrant and depending on what country is involved that could be a painful experience.

 

Lastly I thought it might be useful to re-post a link included on an earlier discussion on the Schengen area 90 day visa. It is an easy to use calculator that gives a good indication of which patterns of visiting will work, and which will not.

 

https://adambard.github.io/schengencalc/

As well as that of the UK (in respect to the bolded) when Brit overstayers attempt to return back into UK. The immigrant word is anathema to Brits resident abroad to the extent they refer to themselves as 'ex-pats'....they're immigrants.

[Sapper520]

Just renewed our Passports.....EU Red covers....valid until 2030. :-D

 

Son, Daughter-in-law and two Grandkids living in The Netherlands.......I really don’t understand everyone’s panic about travel. :-S