Barryd999 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-08-03 8:22 AM Bulletguy - 2020-08-02 3:17 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-02 10:06 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-02 9:54 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 9:49 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 7:40 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 12:28 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:34 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:28 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:08 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:00 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 9:44 AM https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8581949/Tory-MP-sparks-racism-row-claiming-vast-majority-lockdown-breakers-BAME.html So it's racist to point out that those BAME folk who are at greater risk of dying from COVID19, are also the ones who are not following the rules? *-) ......... No doubt our resident thick as mince LLLLB will be along soon to blame white privilige ;-) He cites one of the reasons as too many of them living in the same house. No Sh1t Sherlock! What do you expect them to do then? There is no doubt though that there is an issue with some. I think its the same with a lot of groups of people who are perhaps more devoted to their religion and community way of life than perhaps the rest of the population. Its not just Muslims though. Jewish communities have behaved similarly or at least did so at the start of the Pandemic. dunno about Christians but I believe the Arch Bishop of Canterbury had to issue a warning to vicars to abide by the rules. The Satanists have probably been alright as its mainly sacrificing goats outside and stuff. Maybe the odd virgin.. Still unable to accept the facts eh Barry *-) .......... The COVID19 hot spots are mostly in Muslim area's ........Not Jewish, Christian or Satanist area's ;-) ........ Even Muslim leaders accept what you are unable to with your Thick as Mince LLLLB blinkers on >:-) ....... Well lets have the facts because we dont have them all. Maybe Jewish people dont live in houses with large numbers but they certainly broke the rules. As has been said its perhaps a combination of rule breaking, large numbers in the same house, jobs, poverty and possibly weakened immune systems. We dont have the facts though. Perhaps if we had a track and trace system as good as say Germany's we would have more chance of getting to the bottom of it. It's our track & trace system that has identified where the hot spots are ;-) .......... BTW multi generational Muslim families don't live in one house because they're poor *-) ........ They do it because its their culture, which means its their culture that is helping spread the Chinky Flu and causing more of them to die :-| ....... Not white privilige (^) ......... Is that a fact or something you just decided? You might be right but its also correct that Muslims are the poorest ethnic group in the UK I believe. I think 50% are classed as being in poverty. Or is it that 50% claim benefits? ;-) ......... I proved how easy it was to qualify for benefits years ago.........Just ask Bullet or Pop Up Pepe >:-) ........ PS ......I forgot to add......one of the Southend Mansions I worked in was owned by someone called Patel :D ......... There were a lot of folk in the house.....although they tended to hide from me? :-S ...... Interesting. Why would someone who likes to bang on how he went semi retired in his 40s need to claim benefits. Did you go semi retired or did the work just go tits up? Not sure its a good idea for someone to brag on a public forum about how easy it was to claim benefits who clearly was so wealthy he could go semi retired. Unless of course you weren't. I dont know much about Benefits as Ive never claimed anything since I left school but its my understanding that its actually fecking hard to get anything and you have to pretty much be broke and have hardly any savings to be entitled. Its a fact that Muslims are the most poverty stricken ethnic group in this country. Dont get me wrong There is clearly a problem with some of them not following the rules but its clearly much more complex than that. Best read the thread ;-)........... https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/General-Chat/Chatterbox/Is-the-benefit-system-to-generous-/20021/ Then you will know what your bumping your gums about........for a change >:-) ......... So by your own admission on that thread you say you went semi retired at 46 as it was a lifestyle choice and that you are lazy so presumably you had plenty of money and could just pick and chose yet six years later you decide to go on benefits. I have no idea how you managed to do that as I assumed (maybe wrongly because I would never dream of doing such a thing) you couldnt claim benefits if you had money (savings) but even if you could, it beggars belief why you would openly admit to what looks like benefit fraud on a public forum. I remember the thread topic he admitted that on. He commented about how easy it was to get money he "didn't really need" from the welfare system. What he missed was nobody is ever handed this money, they have to apply for it first so he must have applied.....but why would anyone apply to the state for a benefit they "didn't really need" unless 1) they were genuinely in need of it, or 2) on the fiddle? Here is the calculator which also explains the criteria; https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator He's always had a tendency to boast which has been his undoing and i note on another thread yesterday, he's bragging about his brother doing his "first £100k of orders in a month". Is this the same brother he posted about receiving government money during Covid that he would use to buy a new caravan with? Correct I didn't need the money ;-) .............. It's the government that thought I needed the money :D ...... Also correct that my brother has recieved a cheap LOAN from the government, which he has used to clear his expensive buisness loans, and invested the rest in a British built Baily caravan B-) ....... So a win win for UK businesses and a lose lose for global banks >:-) ........ Which obviously annoys the hell out of our resident Marxists :-D ........ So that's another win win in my book (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Yet you still claimed it and spent it on wine. least thats what your thread from 2010 seems to suggest and then spent a decade banging on about scroungers, benefit fraudsters and immigrants flooding into the country to claim benefits. Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 StuartO - 2020-08-03 9:40 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-08-03 7:52 AM StuartO - 2020-08-02 4:31 PM The chances of anyone doing anything along the lines you are suggesting is pretty much zero, let alone anyone doing it and also accepting your ethical surveillance and veto on the process. I have already dispaired of any solution being practicable within our democractic system and, in case you are wondering, I'm not considering any non-democratic pathways either. By the way I doubt that your 2011 census information is remotely relevant; I'm sure I heard somewhere that the asians were now in the majority in Blackburn. The fog clears a little. :-D Blackburn with Darwen Borough Council. 49 councillors: 33 Labour, 12 Conservative, 2 Independent, 2 LD. 17 BME, 32 "white". Labour group, 50% BME + 1 Independent. <>35% BME overall. So BME a little better represented than "white" for their numbers in the borough - but hardly a take-over. BME comprehensively out voted (2 - 1) on any issue. The above figures are from the council website, so unless you "heard somewhere" that they are fiddling their figures, I can't see your problem - other than it's a heavily Labour dominated council. Run down northern industrial town with close on 20% unemployment = Labour council. Who'd have thought it? My information about numbers looks to be inaccurate but they may still reflect the perceptions of Blackburnians that the Asians now dominate the town. The BAME councillors will be part of the Labour group, which they will presumably pretty much dominate. One way and another Blackburn is seen as a lost cause these days. Registered electorate in 2019, 102,646. Votes cast 2019: 32,912. Overall turnout: 32%. Highest turnout: 45.22% (Shear Brow & Corporation Park). Lowest turnout: 21.35 (Blackburn South East). Apathy, possibly, but the average turnout for the 2018 LA elections (for all districts) lies between 51.4% and 24% (Electoral Commission figures, no 2019 data yet published), so Blackburn, at 32% doesn't stand out as exceptional. So, an apparently average turnout for a UK district. By what/whose yardstick would that be considered a lost cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-08-03 8:10 AM Brian Kirby - 2020-08-03 7:52 AM StuartO - 2020-08-02 4:31 PM The chances of anyone doing anything along the lines you are suggesting is pretty much zero, let alone anyone doing it and also accepting your ethical surveillance and veto on the process. I have already dispaired of any solution being practicable within our democractic system and, in case you are wondering, I'm not considering any non-democratic pathways either. By the way I doubt that your 2011 census information is remotely relevant; I'm sure I heard somewhere that the asians were now in the majority in Blackburn. The fog clears a little. :-D Blackburn with Darwen Borough Council. 49 councillors: 33 Labour, 12 Conservative, 2 Independent, 2 LD. 17 BME, 32 "white". Labour group, 50% BME + 1 Independent. <>35% BME overall. So BME a little better represented than "white" for their numbers in the borough - but hardly a take-over. BME comprehensively out voted (2 - 1) on any issue. The above figures are from the council website, so unless you "heard somewhere" that they are fiddling their figures, I can't see your problem - other than it's a heavily Labour dominated council. Run down northern industrial town with close on 20% unemployment = Labour council. Who'd have thought it? Further evidence that voting Labour is a mistake ;-) ........... Where is the evidence that voting Labour was a "mistake" for Blackburn? It seems the inhabitants don't see it that way, and its their town and was their election. Besides, Blackburn voted 56.3% to 43.7% in favour of Brexit in 2016. What of that? Mistake? It's still the same electorate. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-08-03 11:44 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-03 8:22 AM Bulletguy - 2020-08-02 3:17 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-02 10:06 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-02 9:54 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 9:49 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 7:40 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 12:28 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:34 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:28 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:08 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:00 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 9:44 AM https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8581949/Tory-MP-sparks-racism-row-claiming-vast-majority-lockdown-breakers-BAME.html So it's racist to point out that those BAME folk who are at greater risk of dying from COVID19, are also the ones who are not following the rules? *-) ......... No doubt our resident thick as mince LLLLB will be along soon to blame white privilige ;-) He cites one of the reasons as too many of them living in the same house. No Sh1t Sherlock! What do you expect them to do then? There is no doubt though that there is an issue with some. I think its the same with a lot of groups of people who are perhaps more devoted to their religion and community way of life than perhaps the rest of the population. Its not just Muslims though. Jewish communities have behaved similarly or at least did so at the start of the Pandemic. dunno about Christians but I believe the Arch Bishop of Canterbury had to issue a warning to vicars to abide by the rules. The Satanists have probably been alright as its mainly sacrificing goats outside and stuff. Maybe the odd virgin.. Still unable to accept the facts eh Barry *-) .......... The COVID19 hot spots are mostly in Muslim area's ........Not Jewish, Christian or Satanist area's ;-) ........ Even Muslim leaders accept what you are unable to with your Thick as Mince LLLLB blinkers on >:-) ....... Well lets have the facts because we dont have them all. Maybe Jewish people dont live in houses with large numbers but they certainly broke the rules. As has been said its perhaps a combination of rule breaking, large numbers in the same house, jobs, poverty and possibly weakened immune systems. We dont have the facts though. Perhaps if we had a track and trace system as good as say Germany's we would have more chance of getting to the bottom of it. It's our track & trace system that has identified where the hot spots are ;-) .......... BTW multi generational Muslim families don't live in one house because they're poor *-) ........ They do it because its their culture, which means its their culture that is helping spread the Chinky Flu and causing more of them to die :-| ....... Not white privilige (^) ......... Is that a fact or something you just decided? You might be right but its also correct that Muslims are the poorest ethnic group in the UK I believe. I think 50% are classed as being in poverty. Or is it that 50% claim benefits? ;-) ......... I proved how easy it was to qualify for benefits years ago.........Just ask Bullet or Pop Up Pepe >:-) ........ PS ......I forgot to add......one of the Southend Mansions I worked in was owned by someone called Patel :D ......... There were a lot of folk in the house.....although they tended to hide from me? :-S ...... Interesting. Why would someone who likes to bang on how he went semi retired in his 40s need to claim benefits. Did you go semi retired or did the work just go tits up? Not sure its a good idea for someone to brag on a public forum about how easy it was to claim benefits who clearly was so wealthy he could go semi retired. Unless of course you weren't. I dont know much about Benefits as Ive never claimed anything since I left school but its my understanding that its actually fecking hard to get anything and you have to pretty much be broke and have hardly any savings to be entitled. Its a fact that Muslims are the most poverty stricken ethnic group in this country. Dont get me wrong There is clearly a problem with some of them not following the rules but its clearly much more complex than that. Best read the thread ;-)........... https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/General-Chat/Chatterbox/Is-the-benefit-system-to-generous-/20021/ Then you will know what your bumping your gums about........for a change >:-) ......... So by your own admission on that thread you say you went semi retired at 46 as it was a lifestyle choice and that you are lazy so presumably you had plenty of money and could just pick and chose yet six years later you decide to go on benefits. I have no idea how you managed to do that as I assumed (maybe wrongly because I would never dream of doing such a thing) you couldnt claim benefits if you had money (savings) but even if you could, it beggars belief why you would openly admit to what looks like benefit fraud on a public forum. I remember the thread topic he admitted that on. He commented about how easy it was to get money he "didn't really need" from the welfare system. What he missed was nobody is ever handed this money, they have to apply for it first so he must have applied.....but why would anyone apply to the state for a benefit they "didn't really need" unless 1) they were genuinely in need of it, or 2) on the fiddle? Here is the calculator which also explains the criteria; https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator He's always had a tendency to boast which has been his undoing and i note on another thread yesterday, he's bragging about his brother doing his "first £100k of orders in a month". Is this the same brother he posted about receiving government money during Covid that he would use to buy a new caravan with? Correct I didn't need the money ;-) .............. It's the government that thought I needed the money :D ...... Also correct that my brother has recieved a cheap LOAN from the government, which he has used to clear his expensive buisness loans, and invested the rest in a British built Baily caravan B-) ....... So a win win for UK businesses and a lose lose for global banks >:-) ........ Which obviously annoys the hell out of our resident Marxists :-D ........ So that's another win win in my book (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Yet you still claimed it and spent it on wine. least thats what your thread from 2010 seems to suggest and then spent a decade banging on about scroungers, benefit fraudsters and immigrants flooding into the country to claim benefits. Wow. Precisely what he condemns others for who probably are genuinely in need, he does himself. He's a hypocrite with more faces than a town hall clock. Zero moral compass and zero shame, even boasting about it on a forum fgs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-03 12:16 PM ..... By what/whose yardstick would that be considered a lost cause? In the perception of the people who have lived there and seen the town go to the dogs. As I suggested to you some time ago if you want to understand the problem which these now-asian-dominated towns have become you really need to go and live in one of them for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 StuartO - 2020-08-03 1:12 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-08-03 12:16 PM ..... By what/whose yardstick would that be considered a lost cause? In the perception of the people who have lived there and seen the town go to the dogs. As I suggested to you some time ago if you want to understand the problem which these now-asian-dominated towns have become you really need to go and live in one of them for a while. Except, it isn't "Asian dominated": it has a 70% non BAME population with a similar percentage on non BAME councillors. It is, if anything, ethnically, white northern European dominated. It definitely has high unemployment, so presumably would benefit hugely from increased employment opportunities, and that unemployment seems mainly to relate to the post-war collapse in the cotton spinning and weaving industry - as does its relatively high (for UK) percentage of BAME residents. On both counts it is an accident of history that no government, or whatever colour seems to have corrected - whether by constructive neglect, or failure to facilitate, I don't know. In the early 20th century, and before, when cotton was king, it was a wealthy town. Its problem is/was the collapse of cotton, coupled with changes to immigration legislation in the '60's, which seem to have persuaded the migrants, who originally came and went, to come and stay. That seems to have coincided with the collapse in cotton' leaving the town with a diminishing demand for labour at the same time as the available immigrant labour stopped returning to the Indian sub-continent. Going to live there, wouldn't change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Brian, you are insisting on imposing your own statistical interpretation and closing your mind to what the locals think and say about the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-03 1:31 PM StuartO - 2020-08-03 1:12 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-08-03 12:16 PM ..... By what/whose yardstick would that be considered a lost cause?In the perception of the people who have lived there and seen the town go to the dogs. As I suggested to you some time ago if you want to understand the problem which these now-asian-dominated towns have become you really need to go and live in one of them for a while. Except, it isn't "Asian dominated": it has a 70% non BAME population with a similar percentage on non BAME councillors. It is, if anything, ethnically, white northern European dominated. . I suspect if you were to leave your LLLLB idyl....and make a trip to Blackburn Brian ;-) ......... Then you'd prolly find your multi cultural Nirvana has seperate postcodes :-| ......... The fact that the 70% have yet to suffer from the subtle ethnic cleansing, that is ignored by LLLLB folk like you in authority is hardly a example of a multi cultural Britain that I would call a success *-) .......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Barryd999 - 2020-08-03 11:44 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-03 8:22 AM Bulletguy - 2020-08-02 3:17 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-02 10:06 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-02 9:54 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 9:49 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 7:40 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 12:28 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:34 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:28 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:08 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:00 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 9:44 AM https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8581949/Tory-MP-sparks-racism-row-claiming-vast-majority-lockdown-breakers-BAME.html So it's racist to point out that those BAME folk who are at greater risk of dying from COVID19, are also the ones who are not following the rules? *-) ......... No doubt our resident thick as mince LLLLB will be along soon to blame white privilige ;-) He cites one of the reasons as too many of them living in the same house. No Sh1t Sherlock! What do you expect them to do then? There is no doubt though that there is an issue with some. I think its the same with a lot of groups of people who are perhaps more devoted to their religion and community way of life than perhaps the rest of the population. Its not just Muslims though. Jewish communities have behaved similarly or at least did so at the start of the Pandemic. dunno about Christians but I believe the Arch Bishop of Canterbury had to issue a warning to vicars to abide by the rules. The Satanists have probably been alright as its mainly sacrificing goats outside and stuff. Maybe the odd virgin.. Still unable to accept the facts eh Barry *-) .......... The COVID19 hot spots are mostly in Muslim area's ........Not Jewish, Christian or Satanist area's ;-) ........ Even Muslim leaders accept what you are unable to with your Thick as Mince LLLLB blinkers on >:-) ....... Well lets have the facts because we dont have them all. Maybe Jewish people dont live in houses with large numbers but they certainly broke the rules. As has been said its perhaps a combination of rule breaking, large numbers in the same house, jobs, poverty and possibly weakened immune systems. We dont have the facts though. Perhaps if we had a track and trace system as good as say Germany's we would have more chance of getting to the bottom of it. It's our track & trace system that has identified where the hot spots are ;-) .......... BTW multi generational Muslim families don't live in one house because they're poor *-) ........ They do it because its their culture, which means its their culture that is helping spread the Chinky Flu and causing more of them to die :-| ....... Not white privilige (^) ......... Is that a fact or something you just decided? You might be right but its also correct that Muslims are the poorest ethnic group in the UK I believe. I think 50% are classed as being in poverty. Or is it that 50% claim benefits? ;-) ......... I proved how easy it was to qualify for benefits years ago.........Just ask Bullet or Pop Up Pepe >:-) ........ PS ......I forgot to add......one of the Southend Mansions I worked in was owned by someone called Patel :D ......... There were a lot of folk in the house.....although they tended to hide from me? :-S ...... Interesting. Why would someone who likes to bang on how he went semi retired in his 40s need to claim benefits. Did you go semi retired or did the work just go tits up? Not sure its a good idea for someone to brag on a public forum about how easy it was to claim benefits who clearly was so wealthy he could go semi retired. Unless of course you weren't. I dont know much about Benefits as Ive never claimed anything since I left school but its my understanding that its actually fecking hard to get anything and you have to pretty much be broke and have hardly any savings to be entitled. Its a fact that Muslims are the most poverty stricken ethnic group in this country. Dont get me wrong There is clearly a problem with some of them not following the rules but its clearly much more complex than that. Best read the thread ;-)........... https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/General-Chat/Chatterbox/Is-the-benefit-system-to-generous-/20021/ Then you will know what your bumping your gums about........for a change >:-) ......... So by your own admission on that thread you say you went semi retired at 46 as it was a lifestyle choice and that you are lazy so presumably you had plenty of money and could just pick and chose yet six years later you decide to go on benefits. I have no idea how you managed to do that as I assumed (maybe wrongly because I would never dream of doing such a thing) you couldnt claim benefits if you had money (savings) but even if you could, it beggars belief why you would openly admit to what looks like benefit fraud on a public forum. I remember the thread topic he admitted that on. He commented about how easy it was to get money he "didn't really need" from the welfare system. What he missed was nobody is ever handed this money, they have to apply for it first so he must have applied.....but why would anyone apply to the state for a benefit they "didn't really need" unless 1) they were genuinely in need of it, or 2) on the fiddle? Here is the calculator which also explains the criteria; https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator He's always had a tendency to boast which has been his undoing and i note on another thread yesterday, he's bragging about his brother doing his "first £100k of orders in a month". Is this the same brother he posted about receiving government money during Covid that he would use to buy a new caravan with? Correct I didn't need the money ;-) .............. It's the government that thought I needed the money :D ...... Also correct that my brother has recieved a cheap LOAN from the government, which he has used to clear his expensive buisness loans, and invested the rest in a British built Baily caravan B-) ....... So a win win for UK businesses and a lose lose for global banks >:-) ........ Which obviously annoys the hell out of our resident Marxists :-D ........ So that's another win win in my book (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Yet you still claimed it and spent it on wine. least thats what your thread from 2010 seems to suggest and then spent a decade banging on about scroungers, benefit fraudsters and immigrants flooding into the country to claim benefits. Wow. Yep ;-) ........ I proved my point didn't I? >:-) ........ It's no wonder they're queuing at the frigging door is it???? *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-08-03 4:42 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-03 11:44 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-03 8:22 AM Bulletguy - 2020-08-02 3:17 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-02 10:06 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-02 9:54 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 9:49 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 7:40 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 12:28 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:34 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:28 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:08 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:00 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 9:44 AM https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8581949/Tory-MP-sparks-racism-row-claiming-vast-majority-lockdown-breakers-BAME.html So it's racist to point out that those BAME folk who are at greater risk of dying from COVID19, are also the ones who are not following the rules? *-) ......... No doubt our resident thick as mince LLLLB will be along soon to blame white privilige ;-) He cites one of the reasons as too many of them living in the same house. No Sh1t Sherlock! What do you expect them to do then? There is no doubt though that there is an issue with some. I think its the same with a lot of groups of people who are perhaps more devoted to their religion and community way of life than perhaps the rest of the population. Its not just Muslims though. Jewish communities have behaved similarly or at least did so at the start of the Pandemic. dunno about Christians but I believe the Arch Bishop of Canterbury had to issue a warning to vicars to abide by the rules. The Satanists have probably been alright as its mainly sacrificing goats outside and stuff. Maybe the odd virgin.. Still unable to accept the facts eh Barry *-) .......... The COVID19 hot spots are mostly in Muslim area's ........Not Jewish, Christian or Satanist area's ;-) ........ Even Muslim leaders accept what you are unable to with your Thick as Mince LLLLB blinkers on >:-) ....... Well lets have the facts because we dont have them all. Maybe Jewish people dont live in houses with large numbers but they certainly broke the rules. As has been said its perhaps a combination of rule breaking, large numbers in the same house, jobs, poverty and possibly weakened immune systems. We dont have the facts though. Perhaps if we had a track and trace system as good as say Germany's we would have more chance of getting to the bottom of it. It's our track & trace system that has identified where the hot spots are ;-) .......... BTW multi generational Muslim families don't live in one house because they're poor *-) ........ They do it because its their culture, which means its their culture that is helping spread the Chinky Flu and causing more of them to die :-| ....... Not white privilige (^) ......... Is that a fact or something you just decided? You might be right but its also correct that Muslims are the poorest ethnic group in the UK I believe. I think 50% are classed as being in poverty. Or is it that 50% claim benefits? ;-) ......... I proved how easy it was to qualify for benefits years ago.........Just ask Bullet or Pop Up Pepe >:-) ........ PS ......I forgot to add......one of the Southend Mansions I worked in was owned by someone called Patel :D ......... There were a lot of folk in the house.....although they tended to hide from me? :-S ...... Interesting. Why would someone who likes to bang on how he went semi retired in his 40s need to claim benefits. Did you go semi retired or did the work just go tits up? Not sure its a good idea for someone to brag on a public forum about how easy it was to claim benefits who clearly was so wealthy he could go semi retired. Unless of course you weren't. I dont know much about Benefits as Ive never claimed anything since I left school but its my understanding that its actually fecking hard to get anything and you have to pretty much be broke and have hardly any savings to be entitled. Its a fact that Muslims are the most poverty stricken ethnic group in this country. Dont get me wrong There is clearly a problem with some of them not following the rules but its clearly much more complex than that. Best read the thread ;-)........... https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/General-Chat/Chatterbox/Is-the-benefit-system-to-generous-/20021/ Then you will know what your bumping your gums about........for a change >:-) ......... So by your own admission on that thread you say you went semi retired at 46 as it was a lifestyle choice and that you are lazy so presumably you had plenty of money and could just pick and chose yet six years later you decide to go on benefits. I have no idea how you managed to do that as I assumed (maybe wrongly because I would never dream of doing such a thing) you couldnt claim benefits if you had money (savings) but even if you could, it beggars belief why you would openly admit to what looks like benefit fraud on a public forum. I remember the thread topic he admitted that on. He commented about how easy it was to get money he "didn't really need" from the welfare system. What he missed was nobody is ever handed this money, they have to apply for it first so he must have applied.....but why would anyone apply to the state for a benefit they "didn't really need" unless 1) they were genuinely in need of it, or 2) on the fiddle? Here is the calculator which also explains the criteria; https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator He's always had a tendency to boast which has been his undoing and i note on another thread yesterday, he's bragging about his brother doing his "first £100k of orders in a month". Is this the same brother he posted about receiving government money during Covid that he would use to buy a new caravan with? Correct I didn't need the money ;-) .............. It's the government that thought I needed the money :D ...... Also correct that my brother has recieved a cheap LOAN from the government, which he has used to clear his expensive buisness loans, and invested the rest in a British built Baily caravan B-) ....... So a win win for UK businesses and a lose lose for global banks >:-) ........ Which obviously annoys the hell out of our resident Marxists :-D ........ So that's another win win in my book (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Yet you still claimed it and spent it on wine. least thats what your thread from 2010 seems to suggest and then spent a decade banging on about scroungers, benefit fraudsters and immigrants flooding into the country to claim benefits. Wow. Yep ;-) ........ I proved my point didn't I? >:-) ........ It's no wonder they're queuing at the frigging door is it???? *-) ......... What it proved is you're no better than those you criticise, if anything, worse. You're a shameless hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-08-03 5:42 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-03 4:42 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-03 11:44 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-03 8:22 AM Bulletguy - 2020-08-02 3:17 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-02 10:06 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-02 9:54 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 9:49 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 7:40 PM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 12:28 PM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:34 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:28 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 11:08 AM Barryd999 - 2020-08-01 11:00 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-01 9:44 AM https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8581949/Tory-MP-sparks-racism-row-claiming-vast-majority-lockdown-breakers-BAME.html So it's racist to point out that those BAME folk who are at greater risk of dying from COVID19, are also the ones who are not following the rules? *-) ......... No doubt our resident thick as mince LLLLB will be along soon to blame white privilige ;-) He cites one of the reasons as too many of them living in the same house. No Sh1t Sherlock! What do you expect them to do then? There is no doubt though that there is an issue with some. I think its the same with a lot of groups of people who are perhaps more devoted to their religion and community way of life than perhaps the rest of the population. Its not just Muslims though. Jewish communities have behaved similarly or at least did so at the start of the Pandemic. dunno about Christians but I believe the Arch Bishop of Canterbury had to issue a warning to vicars to abide by the rules. The Satanists have probably been alright as its mainly sacrificing goats outside and stuff. Maybe the odd virgin.. Still unable to accept the facts eh Barry *-) .......... The COVID19 hot spots are mostly in Muslim area's ........Not Jewish, Christian or Satanist area's ;-) ........ Even Muslim leaders accept what you are unable to with your Thick as Mince LLLLB blinkers on >:-) ....... Well lets have the facts because we dont have them all. Maybe Jewish people dont live in houses with large numbers but they certainly broke the rules. As has been said its perhaps a combination of rule breaking, large numbers in the same house, jobs, poverty and possibly weakened immune systems. We dont have the facts though. Perhaps if we had a track and trace system as good as say Germany's we would have more chance of getting to the bottom of it. It's our track & trace system that has identified where the hot spots are ;-) .......... BTW multi generational Muslim families don't live in one house because they're poor *-) ........ They do it because its their culture, which means its their culture that is helping spread the Chinky Flu and causing more of them to die :-| ....... Not white privilige (^) ......... Is that a fact or something you just decided? You might be right but its also correct that Muslims are the poorest ethnic group in the UK I believe. I think 50% are classed as being in poverty. Or is it that 50% claim benefits? ;-) ......... I proved how easy it was to qualify for benefits years ago.........Just ask Bullet or Pop Up Pepe >:-) ........ PS ......I forgot to add......one of the Southend Mansions I worked in was owned by someone called Patel :D ......... There were a lot of folk in the house.....although they tended to hide from me? :-S ...... Interesting. Why would someone who likes to bang on how he went semi retired in his 40s need to claim benefits. Did you go semi retired or did the work just go tits up? Not sure its a good idea for someone to brag on a public forum about how easy it was to claim benefits who clearly was so wealthy he could go semi retired. Unless of course you weren't. I dont know much about Benefits as Ive never claimed anything since I left school but its my understanding that its actually fecking hard to get anything and you have to pretty much be broke and have hardly any savings to be entitled. Its a fact that Muslims are the most poverty stricken ethnic group in this country. Dont get me wrong There is clearly a problem with some of them not following the rules but its clearly much more complex than that. Best read the thread ;-)........... https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/General-Chat/Chatterbox/Is-the-benefit-system-to-generous-/20021/ Then you will know what your bumping your gums about........for a change >:-) ......... So by your own admission on that thread you say you went semi retired at 46 as it was a lifestyle choice and that you are lazy so presumably you had plenty of money and could just pick and chose yet six years later you decide to go on benefits. I have no idea how you managed to do that as I assumed (maybe wrongly because I would never dream of doing such a thing) you couldnt claim benefits if you had money (savings) but even if you could, it beggars belief why you would openly admit to what looks like benefit fraud on a public forum. I remember the thread topic he admitted that on. He commented about how easy it was to get money he "didn't really need" from the welfare system. What he missed was nobody is ever handed this money, they have to apply for it first so he must have applied.....but why would anyone apply to the state for a benefit they "didn't really need" unless 1) they were genuinely in need of it, or 2) on the fiddle? Here is the calculator which also explains the criteria; https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator He's always had a tendency to boast which has been his undoing and i note on another thread yesterday, he's bragging about his brother doing his "first £100k of orders in a month". Is this the same brother he posted about receiving government money during Covid that he would use to buy a new caravan with? Correct I didn't need the money ;-) .............. It's the government that thought I needed the money :D ...... Also correct that my brother has recieved a cheap LOAN from the government, which he has used to clear his expensive buisness loans, and invested the rest in a British built Baily caravan B-) ....... So a win win for UK businesses and a lose lose for global banks >:-) ........ Which obviously annoys the hell out of our resident Marxists :-D ........ So that's another win win in my book (lol) (lol) (lol) ......... Yet you still claimed it and spent it on wine. least thats what your thread from 2010 seems to suggest and then spent a decade banging on about scroungers, benefit fraudsters and immigrants flooding into the country to claim benefits. Wow. Yep ;-) ........ I proved my point didn't I? >:-) ........ It's no wonder they're queuing at the frigging door is it???? *-) ......... What it proved is you're no better than those you criticise, if anything, worse. You're a shameless hypocrite. If it makes you feel any better Dumb Dumb ;-) ......... The government gave me back in 18 months........less than what I gave them in 3 months before I semi retired :D ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 StuartO - 2020-08-03 3:46 PM Brian, you are insisting on imposing your own statistical interpretation and closing your mind to what the locals think and say about the problem. I'm not "insisting on imposing" anything on anyone. I'm expressing a point of view based on what I can discover about Blackburn. Part of what I can learn is that its council broadly reflects the make up of the town's population, and that points away from the characterisation of it being "BAME dominated" that you have advanced. It clearly has problems, but I'm unconvinced that the BAME element of its population lies at the root of those problems. A lack of employment and concurrent long term economic stagnation seem more probable culprits. The opinions of local people are of course liable to be influenced by perceptions that the BAME group are the problem. The foreigners look different, behave differently, probably speak their mother tongues among themselves, and arrived in the town at exactly the time its post-war demise began. So, to the casual observer, putting two and two together, they may well look to be the cause of its problems. Generally, when people are prospering, they rub along together. When they are not, and there are numbers of foreigners in their midst, the foreigners take the blame. If there are no foreigners, it'll be some other external influence that is blamed. It is human nature to blame the "other" for the ills of the present. We instinctively look around for scapegoats. I have not "closed my mind" to what locals think, but I am reluctant to simply take what you say at face value, when the evidence seems to say otherwise. The language appears exaggerated when confronted with the record. So I'm sorry, but thou doth too much protest, methinks! But besides all the above, and as you are clearly concerned and have contact with local people whose views you respect, what is your proposal for remedy, beyond the rather defeatist attitude that Blackburn is a lost cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-03 6:18 PM ......I'm not "insisting on imposing" anything on anyone. I'm expressing a point of view based on what I can discover about Blackburn.....The opinions of local people are of course liable to be influenced by perceptions that the BAME group are the problem. The foreigners look different, behave differently, probably speak their mother tongues among themselves, and arrived in the town at exactly the time its post-war demise began. So, to the casual observer, putting two and two together, they may well look to be the cause of its problems. .....I have not "closed my mind" to what locals think, but I am reluctant to simply take what you say at face value....what is your proposal for remedy, beyond the rather defeatist attitude that Blackburn is a lost cause? I'm not the only one with local knowledge and experience who is telling you that these asian-dominated towns are in big trouble, largely because the police, social services etc turned a blind eye over many years for fear of being accused of racisim and the consequences have beeen that a high proportion of the asian community have grown accustomed to doing their own outlaw thing. But this hypothesis offends your deeply held convictions that they can't be bad or selfish or criminal people, so you ignore the evidence of their disproportionate presence in the prisons etc. you never opened your mind because you have a closed mind about these things because of your liberal origins and inclinations so you have what I see as pie in the sky, fanciful ideas which you instinctively look to justify by gathering these statistical arguments rather than listening properly to other arguments. At the end of the day neither you nor I have a vote in Blackburn or Leicester and neither of us has any right at all to demand the right to exercise moral surveilance or veto so we are simply by-standers engaging in discussion. I mourn for the fate of the town of my birth and I know how the overwhleming majority of the remaining whites, whom I know are not racists in any nasty way although you would see them as such (and me I suppose) feel about it all. The asians in Blackburn aren't all low class, criminally inclined parasites on society or exploiters of others of course, far from it, but the majority of them are exactly that. They might go the mosque regularly for community reasons but when they come out they leave their religious principles at the threshold and lead unscrupulous, exploitive and immoral lives. Maybe they adopted that lifestyle as a matter of need to survive but it's now become an established way of life and they feel no pressure to change it because it works for them. Your viewpoint, from your ivory tower, is blind and your ideas are fanciful and foolish. I have already said that I really don't know how the situation can be improved within a democracy such as ours. I do not want to and indeed daren't contemplate any other avenue of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 StuartO - 2020-08-04 9:19 AM...............…. 1 I'm not the only one with local knowledge and experience who is telling you that these asian-dominated towns are in big trouble, largely because the police, social services etc turned a blind eye over many years for fear of being accused of racisim and the consequences have beeen that a high proportion of the asian community have grown accustomed to doing their own outlaw thing. 2 But this hypothesis offends your deeply held convictions that they can't be bad or selfish or criminal people, so you ignore the evidence of their disproportionate presence in the prisons etc. you never opened your mind because you have a closed mind about these things because of your liberal origins and inclinations so you have what I see as pie in the sky, fanciful ideas which you instinctively look to justify by gathering these statistical arguments rather than listening properly to other arguments. 3 At the end of the day neither you nor I have a vote in Blackburn or Leicester and neither of us has any right at all to demand the right to exercise moral surveilance or veto so we are simply by-standers engaging in discussion. 4 I mourn for the fate of the town of my birth and I know how the overwhleming majority of the remaining whites, whom I know are not racists in any nasty way...…………... 5 although you would see them as such (and me I suppose) feel about it all. 6 The asians in Blackburn aren't all low class, criminally inclined parasites on society or exploiters of others of course, far from it, …………. 7 ......…. but the majority of them are exactly that. They might go the mosque regularly for community reasons but when they come out they leave their religious principles at the threshold and lead unscrupulous, exploitive and immoral lives. 8 Maybe they adopted that lifestyle as a matter of need to survive but it's now become an established way of life and they feel no pressure to change it because it works for them. 9 Your viewpoint, from your ivory tower, is blind and your ideas are fanciful and foolish. 10 I have already said that I really don't know how the situation can be improved within a democracy such as ours. I do not want to and indeed daren't contemplate any other avenue of change. 1 Yes, I agree, but that is a largely self-inflicted wound that follows from past complacent inaction on the part of those responsible. As you say, they turned a blind eye instead of acting. As I said further back, mess, theirs, and clean it up. 2 Your imagination on overtime again! :-D Why not deal with the points I made, rather than endlessly revert to type? 3 Quite. That is what I have been trying to get across: it is a local problem that needs a local solution. Not sure about the hyperbolic "moral surveillance" bit: how is it possible to debate goings on in any town without forming an opinion? Or are opinions now a new form of moral surveillance? 4 That begs a central question! 5 See here: https://tinyurl.com/ujrx6zq I think this probably applies equally to both groups. It's focused on the workplace, but seems to apply equally for society at large. We all do it - see your comment at 2 above! :-D 6 I'm sure you are right. 7/8 and there's always the but! May one ask how you know that? Here is a piece from an unexpected source that makes my point with eloquence: https://tinyurl.com/y88muv5b I don't expect your agreement, but it seems from that one article that what they do to Blackburn, Blackburn first did to them. If that is to any degree accurate, it is easy to understand why the majority population might feel beleaguered. It seems Blackburn may be in need of a "truth and reconciliation commission, or similar. 9 See 2 above. 10 Bit of a cop-out, as this discussion of Blackburn really starts with your own post of 26 July 2020 at 8:12 AM. It will not be a problem that is unique to Blackburn, and it has to be dealt with. More hand wringing won't solve it. Outsiders apparently aren't welcome, so it's down to the locals, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Your link made interesting reading but I think the way you interpret it (that it shows you that resident whites and immigrant asians are equally to blame and equally in need of rehabilitation) puts us miles apart in our thinking. The article in that link tells me that the problems are worse than I thought and there is a trend towards agrression (possibly evangelistic islamic aggression) by younger asians of which I had been unaware. I genuinely don't know how timely intervention can be made constructively and affordably within our democracy. If that's a cop out then I think I'm old enough to cop out if I want to and can't think of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 StuartO - 2020-08-04 1:24 PM 1 Your link made interesting reading but I think the way you interpret it (that it shows you that resident whites and immigrant asians are equally to blame and equally in need of rehabilitation) puts us miles apart in our thinking. 2 The article in that link tells me that the problems are worse than I thought and there is a trend towards agrression (possibly evangelistic islamic aggression) by younger asians of which I had been unaware. 3 I genuinely don't know how timely intervention can be made constructively and affordably within our democracy. If that's a cop out then I think I'm old enough to cop out if I want to and can't think of anything. 1 Good. My only cavil is that I would say "both" to blame, rather than "equally". (I wouldn't dare to begin apportioning blame: besides, it is more constructive to look for solutions than to apportion blame.) It seems clear from a number of reports, one or two of which I've linked in previous posts, that the initial reaction to the migrants back in the '50's was at best less than welcoming. The natural response of people in a strange land is to group together for a sense of security. The natural response of "host" communities is to view outlanders with suspicion. That much we know from our history. It then seems this was exacerbated by the collapse of the industry in which the migrants had been actively recruited to work. Then came the 1962 Commonwealth Immigration Act under Macmillan, which upended the system under which most of the "cotton" migrants had arrived. If they now returned home, they couldn't get back. This induced many to stay put and apply for their wives and families to join them. So the numbers grew, and the jobs diminished. Under those circumstances, it isn't that difficult to see how the mutual animosities might have arisen. The tragedy is that those animosities have been allowed to persist for over 60 years. 2 Yes, the article depicts something close to a tinder box. 3 Fair enough, but the problem remains and demands resolution. It seems to me highly unlikely that the present BAME population of Blackburn (or any of the other similar towns) will voluntarily return whence they and their parents came. It seems equally unlikely that they could be induced to do so, or could be forcibly removed. So, it has to be accepted that they will stay. We therefore have to find resolution, or confront the possibility (especially under present Covid circumstances + BLM) of widespread (because of the number of towns affected) racially motivated rioting. It won't be the first time ( https://tinyurl.com/y2xp3qk4 ), we have the tinder box - all it needs is the spark. Based on what I have read, I think the choice is that stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 We seem to agree that the risks of something like open conflict are higher than might be generally thought and getting higher - although I don't see the white population of East Lancashire as likely to become violent. They have rolled with it all and those who could do so have moved out, at least of the asian areas of town. They do still want our politicians to do something useful instead of ignoring the problem, as they have done for many years, but I see no bubbling up of belligerent intent. We might also agree that no one has so far come up with an attractive or even a workable plan for dealing with the situation in these towns and our present Government (and the Labour Opposition) are treading very carefully (in the context of the COVID-19 outbreak to avoid saying anything which could be in any way seen as criticism of the behaviour of any of the BAME communities anywhere in the Country. A good friend of mine from motorcycling days lives in a small town close to both Blackburn and Preston and he works as Training Officer in a big Call Centre location - which relies on paying staff meanly and turning over the Call Taker workforce as necessary to achieve that end. A conspicuous part of their recruitment difficulties has been that the young asian males who apply are poorly motovated and don't make much effort to learn, some of them contemptuously and openly, as if they are not remotely interested in getting the jobs but are turning up because they have to for some reason, perhaps because the Job Centre has been leaning on them. They come across as spoiled brats (as we might see them) because their mothers have treated them (merely because they are males) as superior beings compared with their sisters. I would think that observation tells us something about the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 OK, but the local politicians of all parties need to be pressured to act, and they in turn need to get together with each other across the towns, to put pressure ion government to begin to act to avert possible conflicts. Where certain parties won't play, the others should be encouraged to get together, and across the towns, to lobby on the issue. There must surely be local people who are uneasy, who "know people", who can begin building discreet networks to raise the profile of the issue. Quiet words in ears, here and there, in whatever context, possibly using that Express article as an introduction, should at least begin to sound out the level of anxiety and whether it is sufficient to take further? The final obstacle may be Patel, as she's Hindu by birth, which makes the possibility of her involvement potentially even more incendiary! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 I was told by a retired police officer who had been the Divisional Commander in Blackburn that most Asians in Blackburn are of Indian ethnic origin, which surprised me. Your idea that local politicians and others can be made to face up to things wouldn’t have worked in N Ireland either. Get real Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 I'll just throw this into the mix and see where it goes as opinion is obviously divided. It concerned a documentary i watched some time ago now so unfortunately cannot remember the name of it but it was about one of the Lancashire mill towns, could even have been Blackburn, but it doesn't matter. The programme spoke to a young Asian chap who openly admitted family doors often remained closed. He was aware of the lack of integration but what struck him as odd was at school the kids all played together, but the minute they left school for home the kids parted and they never mixed outside of school hours. This was among both white and Asian families. So he spoke to a few older folks on both sides to ask 'why'.....but none could give a logical explanation. The reasons could not have been racially motivated as why else would parents be ok with the kids playing together at school? Besides, children don't have race issues, it comes from the parents. What this lad had tried to do was get families to open up but it seems there was an inexplicable stubbornness on both sides. When both are so entrenched in their mindset they're never going move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 StuartO - 2020-08-04 6:12 PM...…….Your idea that local politicians and others can be made to face up to things wouldn’t have worked in N Ireland either. Get real Brian. Tell that to John Hume! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 Unfortunately John Hume passed away last week so I can't - but I'm sure he would say that although his role in communicating was important, a prerequisite to the Friday Agreement was that both sides had come to realise that years and years of violence and killings wasn't achieving anything much and by then both sides of the community had built up an appetite for peace and support for both the Armed Struggle among Catholics and the UDF among Protestants was waning. I've suggested that you should go and live in Blackburn to discover what it's really like and if you were to do so and have the sort of impact you anticipate from advocacy of your ideas no one would be more delighted than I would. But I wouldn't be holding my breath for quick success, especially if you started off by preaching to both sides about what they had been doing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 5, 2020 Share Posted August 5, 2020 StuartO - 2020-08-05 7:43 AM Unfortunately John Hume passed away last week so I can't - but I'm sure he would say that although his role in communicating was important, a prerequisite to the Friday Agreement was that both sides had come to realise that years and years of violence and killings wasn't achieving anything much and by then both sides of the community had built up an appetite for peace and support for both the Armed Struggle among Catholics and the UDF among Protestants was waning. I've suggested that you should go and live in Blackburn to discover what it's really like and if you were to do so and have the sort of impact you anticipate from advocacy of your ideas no one would be more delighted than I would. But I wouldn't be holding my breath for quick success, especially if you started off by preaching to both sides about what they had been doing wrong. John Hume had an advantage ;-) ............ He wasn't dealing with a culture that follows a creed where deceiving infidels is perfectly acceptable :-| ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 pelmetman - 2020-08-05 10:10 AM StuartO - 2020-08-05 7:43 AM Unfortunately John Hume passed away last week so I can't - but I'm sure he would say that although his role in communicating was important, a prerequisite to the Friday Agreement was that both sides had come to realise that years and years of violence and killings wasn't achieving anything much and by then both sides of the community had built up an appetite for peace and support for both the Armed Struggle among Catholics and the UDF among Protestants was waning. I've suggested that you should go and live in Blackburn to discover what it's really like and if you were to do so and have the sort of impact you anticipate from advocacy of your ideas no one would be more delighted than I would. But I wouldn't be holding my breath for quick success, especially if you started off by preaching to both sides about what they had been doing wrong. John Hume had an advantage ;-) ............ He wasn't dealing with a culture that follows a creed where deceiving infidels is perfectly acceptable :-| ......... In different ways, you are both making my point for me, and yes - I was aware that Hume had died when I posted. Itony just doesn't work on here, does it? :-) He was a local boy, brought up within the Catholic faith in the Londonderry Bogside. So, applying Dave's chop logic above, that would automatically make him a IRA member and a terrorist. But he wasn't, was he? That is why exactly why I've been arguing, to apparently deaf ears, that any solution to Blackburn's problems must come from within Blackburn. Endlessly stating that I should move to Blackburn before being entitled to an opinion is fatuous. Stuart knows full well that it isn't going to happen, but he nonetheless persists apparently because in his mind it seems to equate to some kind of victory. It is disingenuous nonsense. Did he have to put his hand in fire before accepting that fire burns? Has he contracted Covid-19? Does he none the less caution others against catching it? Is he really arguing that no one can form or hold a valid opinion unless they have direct experience, or that only he can do that, or that only I can't? He has convinced himself that Blackburn's problems are intractable, and resists any suggestion that they are not, or that the underlying causes can be treated - if only understanding between local people can be facilitated. I'm not pretending that understanding will be reached after a couple of meetings - look at how long it took Hume to persuade the birds from their trees. But in the end, he, and others, succeeded. To endlessly pronounce that the same process can never apply to Blackburn - that it is impossible - is unreasonable, negative, hopeless, and depressing. The main problems arise where migrants have formed enclaves, and are common in a number of towns, including Coventry (which is slightly worse affected), Bradford, Birmingham, Leicester, Luton, and parts of Manchester and London. Integration is, and always has been, a slow process but it does happen, albeit the results are not even or perfect. There are various Jewish, Asian, Chinese, Irish, Antipodean, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Korean, etc. etc, areas where migrants have accumulated, and to varying degrees are becoming absorbed into the wider community. I doubt any outsider can succeed in promoting harmony, because the reasons for dis-harmony will vary from place to place. The impetus has to come from the local people - which is precisely why John Hume succeeded. He was an insider in a hostile community who gradually persuaded his community to be less suspicious of those they habitually mistrusted, and managed to form allegiances among like minder others from the opposing community. It will happen - but if facilitated it will happen quicker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 There’s no persuading you Brian; you are convinced that pontificating from afar, which is what you are offering, will Definitely work if only some local Hume or Mother Teresa will stick his/her neck out far enough and for long enough and follow your prescription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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