Brian Kirby Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 StuartO - 2020-08-06 11:54 AM There’s no persuading you Brian; you are convinced that pontificating from afar, which is what you are offering, will Definitely work if only some local Hume or Mother Teresa will stick his/her neck out far enough and for long enough and follow your prescription. "Pontificating" from afar is not what I am "offering". What I have been suggesting is that integration will happen, but that it has to come from within the communities and needs an insider to facilitate. You, OTOH, seem unable to embrace that thought, and are more interested in discrediting its author. The problem with ad hominem is what it reveals of its advocate. I'll leave you the final, negative, line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-06 11:42 AM pelmetman - 2020-08-05 10:10 AM StuartO - 2020-08-05 7:43 AM Unfortunately John Hume passed away last week so I can't - but I'm sure he would say that although his role in communicating was important, a prerequisite to the Friday Agreement was that both sides had come to realise that years and years of violence and killings wasn't achieving anything much and by then both sides of the community had built up an appetite for peace and support for both the Armed Struggle among Catholics and the UDF among Protestants was waning. I've suggested that you should go and live in Blackburn to discover what it's really like and if you were to do so and have the sort of impact you anticipate from advocacy of your ideas no one would be more delighted than I would. But I wouldn't be holding my breath for quick success, especially if you started off by preaching to both sides about what they had been doing wrong. John Hume had an advantage ;-) ............ He wasn't dealing with a culture that follows a creed where deceiving infidels is perfectly acceptable :-| ......... In different ways, you are both making my point for me, and yes - I was aware that Hume had died when I posted. Itony just doesn't work on here, does it? :-) He was a local boy, brought up within the Catholic faith in the Londonderry Bogside. So, applying Dave's chop logic above, that would automatically make him a IRA member and a terrorist. But he wasn't, was he? That is why exactly why I've been arguing, to apparently deaf ears, that any solution to Blackburn's problems must come from within Blackburn. Endlessly stating that I should move to Blackburn before being entitled to an opinion is fatuous. Stuart knows full well that it isn't going to happen, but he nonetheless persists apparently because in his mind it seems to equate to some kind of victory. It is disingenuous nonsense. Did he have to put his hand in fire before accepting that fire burns? Has he contracted Covid-19? Does he none the less caution others against catching it? Is he really arguing that no one can form or hold a valid opinion unless they have direct experience, or that only he can do that, or that only I can't? He has convinced himself that Blackburn's problems are intractable, and resists any suggestion that they are not, or that the underlying causes can be treated - if only understanding between local people can be facilitated. I'm not pretending that understanding will be reached after a couple of meetings - look at how long it took Hume to persuade the birds from their trees. But in the end, he, and others, succeeded. To endlessly pronounce that the same process can never apply to Blackburn - that it is impossible - is unreasonable, negative, hopeless, and depressing. The main problems arise where migrants have formed enclaves, and are common in a number of towns, including Coventry (which is slightly worse affected), Bradford, Birmingham, Leicester, Luton, and parts of Manchester and London. Integration is, and always has been, a slow process but it does happen, albeit the results are not even or perfect. There are various Jewish, Asian, Chinese, Irish, Antipodean, Portuguese, Russian, Polish, Korean, etc. etc, areas where migrants have accumulated, and to varying degrees are becoming absorbed into the wider community. I doubt any outsider can succeed in promoting harmony, because the reasons for dis-harmony will vary from place to place. The impetus has to come from the local people - which is precisely why John Hume succeeded. He was an insider in a hostile community who gradually persuaded his community to be less suspicious of those they habitually mistrusted, and managed to form allegiances among like minder others from the opposing community. It will happen - but if facilitated it will happen quicker. Does the Chatholic faith preach against integrating with other Christians? *-) ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted August 6, 2020 Author Share Posted August 6, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-06 12:30 PM StuartO - 2020-08-06 11:54 AM There’s no persuading you Brian; you are convinced that pontificating from afar, which is what you are offering, will Definitely work if only some local Hume or Mother Teresa will stick his/her neck out far enough and for long enough and follow your prescription. "Pontificating" from afar is not what I am "offering". What I have been suggesting is that integration will happen, but that it has to come from within the communities and needs an insider to facilitate. You, OTOH, seem unable to embrace that thought, and are more interested in discrediting its author. The problem with ad hominem is what it reveals of its advocate. I'll leave you the final, negative, line. "What I have been suggesting is that integration will happen" ... Well with 30.000 plus potential Islamists on the terror watch list, Muslim sex gangs everywhere it seems and crime off the scales with our Muslim community lets hope that "integration" happens soon eh ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 Yes, in fairness, a good many of the immigrants in question, would've been here for a generation or two, so if they haven't "intergrated" by now, what real chance is there of it ever happening....? (my middle daughter used to teach in an infant school in central-ish Manchester, and she said barely a handful of kids in the class could speak english, and even those that could, rarely spoke it (or heard it spoken) when they were at home (she used to say how parents' evening was a nonsense....) So if that is what's happening when the kiddies are little, what chance for proper "intergration" is there...? :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 Brian Kirby - 2020-08-06 12:30 PM StuartO - 2020-08-06 11:54 AM There’s no persuading you Brian; you are convinced that pontificating from afar, which is what you are offering, will Definitely work if only some local Hume or Mother Teresa will stick his/her neck out far enough and for long enough and follow your prescription. "Pontificating" from afar is not what I am "offering". What I have been suggesting is that integration will happen, but that it has to come from within the communities and needs an insider to facilitate. You, OTOH, seem unable to embrace that thought, and are more interested in discrediting its author. The problem with ad hominem is what it reveals of its advocate. I'll leave you the final, negative, line. I can't "embrace" your idea that integration will happen because I don't believe it will - and nor do others. It's pie in the sky dreaming on your part Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted August 6, 2020 Share Posted August 6, 2020 StuartO - 2020-08-06 9:00 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-08-06 12:30 PM StuartO - 2020-08-06 11:54 AM There’s no persuading you Brian; you are convinced that pontificating from afar, which is what you are offering, will Definitely work if only some local Hume or Mother Teresa will stick his/her neck out far enough and for long enough and follow your prescription. "Pontificating" from afar is not what I am "offering". What I have been suggesting is that integration will happen, but that it has to come from within the communities and needs an insider to facilitate. You, OTOH, seem unable to embrace that thought, and are more interested in discrediting its author. The problem with ad hominem is what it reveals of its advocate. I'll leave you the final, negative, line. I can't "embrace" your idea that integration will happen because I don't believe it will - and nor do others. It's pie in the sky dreaming on your part Brian. If people prefer to dwell in their own little enclaves and not integrate then i suppose there isn't much the immigrant or host nation can do. Requires effort from both sides. It's common knowledge France and Spain experience this attitude from some of the British immigrants living in those countries, circling their wagons to form little enclaves and no intention of integrating. Difficult i suppose when they can't speak the language, but being British naturally they expect to be spoken to in English. It explains the reason so many Brits retire there as much further afield they'd be stuck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdbrain Posted August 7, 2020 Author Share Posted August 7, 2020 Bulletguy - 2020-08-06 9:54 PM StuartO - 2020-08-06 9:00 PM Brian Kirby - 2020-08-06 12:30 PM StuartO - 2020-08-06 11:54 AM There’s no persuading you Brian; you are convinced that pontificating from afar, which is what you are offering, will Definitely work if only some local Hume or Mother Teresa will stick his/her neck out far enough and for long enough and follow your prescription. "Pontificating" from afar is not what I am "offering". What I have been suggesting is that integration will happen, but that it has to come from within the communities and needs an insider to facilitate. You, OTOH, seem unable to embrace that thought, and are more interested in discrediting its author. The problem with ad hominem is what it reveals of its advocate. I'll leave you the final, negative, line. I can't "embrace" your idea that integration will happen because I don't believe it will - and nor do others. It's pie in the sky dreaming on your part Brian. If people prefer to dwell in their own little enclaves and not integrate then i suppose there isn't much the immigrant or host nation can do. Requires effort from both sides. It's common knowledge France and Spain experience this attitude from some of the British immigrants living in those countries, circling their wagons to form little enclaves and no intention of integrating. Difficult i suppose when they can't speak the language, but being British naturally they expect to be spoken to in English. It explains the reason so many Brits retire there as much further afield they'd be stuck. Another one preaching from a 'whites only' village ... You couldn't make it up ... No,actually it seems you could make it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 7, 2020 Share Posted August 7, 2020 It might be useful if Brian explained to us all why he thinks integration can be encouraged (by someone like Hume) in these asian dominated towns where over the past two or three generations the opposite has happened. The asians have become accustomed to being left alone (for fear of being accused of racism) and it's pretty obvious that as their population increased (because of very active bringing in of people from their home areas for marriage, business cooperation, employment etc)and they have been successful in establishing a large resident community with lots of mosques, temples and madrasas and they feel they have control - to the extent of wanting to impliment Sharia Law in their localiyties instead of UK law. Why on earth would they want to integrate? Why wouldn't they want to continue building their own mini state? Brian seems to have strong faith in encouragement to integrate but really nothing more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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