Brian Kirby Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Robinhood - 2021-01-04 3:55 PM Brian, I interpret Article 6 to apply only to "international transport" involving both crew an passengers. e.g. such transport as operates across the EU borders commercially, and provides catering services as part of that travel, or to service "live-on-board" crew. The most obvious categories (in the UK-EU context) are cross-channel ferries and Eurostar, which would, without the provisions of Article 6 require all of such products to be declared and confiscated at first port of call/border crossing every time the EU border was crossed (inwards). Patently, long-distance international trains elsewhere, and any inward shipping, would be in the same boat (sic). I still think you'll find that, crossing in a motorhome (car, quadricycle or whatever), any such products are going to fall under Article 7 (as personal luggage) and be banned. Hi Bob. Adopting that definition, I agree. I think it is because the term used in the regulation is "means of transport operating internationally" and when importing our first van the description applied by (IIRC) HMRC for the VAT payment was "new means of transport". So, what struck me is that a "means of transport" (not specifically defined as a means of public transport) should also encompass private transport. Maybe it is a case of lost in translation? :-) I have to say that under your interpretation of Article 6, Article 7 makes more sense, as it clearly(ish!) then refers to the luggage etc of the fare paying passengers carried on "the means of transport". Dommage! :-( Clutching at straws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 In mid-December a ‘ham-and-cheese sandwich’ prohibition was reported (and joked about) worldwide. This 19 December CGTN article is just one of many: https://newseu.cgtn.com/news/2020-12-19/British-truckers-banned-from-taking-ham-and-cheese-sandwiches-to-EU-Wm9Jf5WfzG/index.html The Caravan & Motorhome Club’s advice on travelling in Europe from 1 January 2021 can be read here https://www.caravanclub.co.uk/overseas-holidays/useful-information/travelling-after-brexit/ and includes the following statement. You will not be able to take meat, milk or products containing them into EU countries from 1 January 2021. There are some exceptions, e.g. certain amounts of powdered infant milk, infant food, or pet food required for medical reasons. Check the rules about taking food and drink into the EU on the European Commission website. I agree with Robinhood’s interpretation of the European Commision document and - as a consequence - unless a ‘small quantities’ relaxation for UK-to-EU travellers is negotiated (ref. footnote on poster-image on Robinhood’s posting of 4 January 2021 1:19 PM) truckers and tourists are just going to have to change their dietary ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Is this going to be a two way thing I'm not in the slightest worried about taking anything with Us its never anything more than unused at home part of a loaf of bread, butter, cereal, eggs all which the neighbour can have . But what about bringing home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Mentioned in my posting of 3 January 2021 9:36 AM on this thread’s 2nd page. This link (last updated 21 December 2020) Guidance Personal food, plant and animal product imports What you need to know if you’re bringing food or other plant or animal products into the UK for personal use. provides detailed information. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/personal-food-plant-and-animal-product-imports#what-you-can-bring-from-eu-countries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-01-07 2:44 PM Mentioned in my posting of 3 January 2021 9:36 AM on this thread’s 2nd page. This link (last updated 21 December 2020) provides detailed information. We'll just have to wait for it to be updated now to see whats allowed since brexit then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 The list of updates to that gov.uk webpage is as shown on the attached image, with the description of the most recent (21 December 2020) update being "Updated with guidance on personal imports from 1 January 2021.” So, deal or no deal, there seems to have been no intention to impose tit-for-tat restrictions on meat, dairy, etc. products being brought from the EU into the UK for personal use that (apparently) will ban truckers entering the EU from the UK from taking ham-and-cheese sandwiches with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-01-07 4:39 PM So, deal or no deal, there seems to have been no intention to impose tit-for-tat restrictions on meat, dairy, etc. products being brought from the EU into the UK for personal use that (apparently) will ban truckers entering the EU from the UK from taking ham-and-cheese sandwiches with them. May also be worth pointing out also that the restrictions on taking animal products into the EU apply to all "third countries" and not just to the UK. There are a number of "third countries" in eastern Europe that trade into the EU overland, (for example, Turkey), whose trucks are common on the main east-west motorway routes through the central EU states, and whose animal welfare and hygiene standards will not be consistent with current EU legislation. The legislation seems to have been prompted initially by the large outbreak of foot and mouth disease in 2001 (the spread of which carries disconcerting echoes for Covid), and by the realisation of how many animals are daily carried around within, and between, countries. Given that the UK has now shifted to third country status, with a stated intention to diverge from EU standards if it suits us, there seems little incentive for the EU to exempt us in particular from those controls. Irksome as it may be, I think we'll just have to live with it for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevina Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 How about asking on a UK truckers forum if anyone has had their sarnies confiscated yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldi Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 Good afternoon, Do you remember during the horsemeat scandal it was was the the German discount supermarkets that were bringing in 100% horsemeat in some products pretending it was was beef while Morrisons had no horsemeat. Fish and chips were introduced into the UK from France to Dundee in the late 1800,s. Can you just imagine the headline in the Sun when the first pork pie or saussages are confiscated by French customs, good fun surely awaits us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 TRYING to keep this thread on-topic :-( I notice that this gov.uk webpage “Transporting goods between Great Britain and the EU: guidance for hauliers and commercial drivers” and published yesterday (8 January 2021) https://tinyurl.com/yxggp4v8 includes the following advice Bringing food and drink into EU countries Drivers travelling to the EU should be aware of additional restrictions to personal imports. If you are carrying prohibited items in your luggage, vehicle or person you need to use, consume, or dispose of them at or before the border. You cannot bring POAO (products of an animal origin) such as those containing meat or dairy (e.g. a ham and cheese sandwich) into the EU. There are exceptions to this rule for certain quantities of powdered infant milk, infant food, special foods, or special processed pet feed. Find out more on the rules and exemptions in the European Commission guidance on personal imports. You cannot bring certain plants and plant products into the EU. Find out more in the European Commission guidance on plant health biosecurity. The reference to the now-legendary ham and cheese sandwich proves that civil servants can have a sense of humour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cattwg Posted January 9, 2021 Author Share Posted January 9, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-01-09 7:10 AM You cannot bring POAO (products of an animal origin) such as those containing meat or dairy (e.g. a ham and cheese sandwich) into the EU. Although we’ve seen it before, the ban on the ham sandwich is the final nail in the coffin. If hauliers can’t even take their lunch into the EU then we most definitely can’t carry our first week’s food supply. Supermarkets near Calais, Coquelles are the other entry points into Europe are going to benefit. As I’ve said previously, “Just another hoop we have to jump through”. Cattwg :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 It's nothing new ........ In 1973 I got a research position job in Buffalo USA. I flew Heathrow to NY City, then Buffalo. On arriving at NY City and going through Immigration the official wen't through my brief case and found an apple. He went apoplexic and shouted across the hall AGRICULTURE! When the specialist Agriculture Immigration man arrived he asked me "What's that" I replied "A Cox's Orange Pippin" He burst out laughing, then made me eat it before he would let me through. Welcome to America! I doubt the French will be so amused though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-01-09 7:10 AM...........................You cannot bring certain plants and plant products into the EU. Find out more in the European Commission guidance on plant health biosecurity. ... So I followed the links to try to find out what can, and cannot, be carried into the EU. If folk thought the bit about animal products complicated, the plants and plant products is even more so! So much so, that I've e-mailed the EU to see if there is anywhere that summarises what is permissible if carried in small quantities for personal consumption. Whether I'll get a helpful reply, or merely one that references a handful of EU regulations (or one at all!), I'll have to wait and see but if the answer is to reference the regulations then I think the only practical conclusion will be to demonstrate to the Douanier a completely empty van with the possible exception of tinned or pre-prepared food (I have asked about those as well, plus cooking/salad oils, dried herbs and spices, pepper, etc.). Otherwise one would have to go thorough one's larder for the benefit of the Customs officer while he says yes or no, and all the rejects are duly deposited in the bin. That, in the queue from the ferry/shuttle awaiting border clearance, would be liable to cause considerable delays! How to win friends and influence people? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 I asked about this on the Brittany Ferries Enthusiasts forum and two of the replies may be of interest. 1: A message (dated 31 December 2020) from Brittany Ferries’ CEO is on this link https://www.brittany-ferries.co.uk/information/coronavirus/ceo-message This includes the warning "Products of animal origin: This includes snacks or sandwiches. From 1 January 2021 they should not be taken into the EU.” 2: A link was provided to a Dutch webpage referring to sandwiches being confiscated at Rotterdam port. I’ve run the link through GOOGLE Translate https://tinyurl.com/yxwzg42s but, just in case forum-members have trouble with that, I’ve copied the relevant text below. Travelers do not study the border rules after Brexit enough: even with a meat sandwich you will not pass customs A Polish man looks on with dismay as his bread disappears in the rubbish bin for the next few days. "It contains meat products and they are not allowed into the European Union," says customs officer Niels. Many passengers do not know the border rules after Brexit. 'This is Brexit, sir' This is well illustrated when Niels and Martijn check the shopping bags of a Polish man. In the bags is lunch for a few days. Niels takes out the sandwiches wrapped in aluminum foil and asks: "is there meat on it?" When the man answers in the affirmative, Niels says: "We'll take all of this." The man does not believe his ears. "Can I take the meat off and take only the bread?" he still tries. "No, we take everything. This is Brexit, sir, I'm sorry", Niels replies sternly. Fruits, meat products, fish are not allowed Because the British have left the European Union, what applies to all so-called 'third countries' applies to the British. Fresh products such as fruits, meat products and fish are not allowed just like that. "We also see that the British sometimes take small amounts of hash or weed with them from the coffee shops. At first there were no checks, but we are now also taking that in", says Niels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conrad Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Let's not forget the reason for this rule - animal and human health. Disease can travel very fast by hitching a lift from people; the cover-19 disease came from wild animals having their environment impinged by humans. Perhaps we need to learn to respect nature more and be more cautious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 The reason for these long-established restrictions now being imposed on travellers to EU countries from the UK is simply that the UK has left the EU and this is one of the knock-on effects. The European Commission webpage says Personal goods containing meat, milk or their products brought into the EU continue to present a real threat to animal health throughout the Union. It is known, for example, that dangerous pathogens that cause animal diseases such as Foot and Mouth Disease and classical swine fever can reside in meat, milk or their products. Therefore, pathogens could be introduced into the EU if personal goods containing meat, milk or their products are sent by post or carried in the baggage of travellers arriving from countries outside the EU, where such pathogens may be circulating. but it’s hardly credible that the ‘real threat’ that was potentially present (but clearly not bothered about by EU border controls) at midnight on 31 December 2020 had suddenly increased 5 minutes later. We (my wife and I) accept that, for the foreseeable future, we are prohibited from entering the EU (ie. France in our case) with milk, dairy and animal products in our motorhome’s fridge, but ‘respect for nature’ doesn’t come into it. I suggested to my wife “Perhaps you can take Vegan equivalents?” but she said she’d rather chuck away perishable stuff in our domestic fridge than do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brugge Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 If you want to take a sarnie into the EU you can always take a lettuce sandwich or a tin of tuna or salmon, all with no butter though. Buy a box of soya milk if you need milk with your coffee, plenty of alternatives available! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cattwg Posted January 10, 2021 Author Share Posted January 10, 2021 Derek Uzzell - 2021-01-09 2:51 PM Fresh products such as fruits, meat products and fish are not allowed just like that. So, are we now saying that we cannot take tomatoes (a fruit), apples, bananas etc and canned fish (or does the ban only apply to fresh/frozen fish) as well as meat products into the EU? We need an authoritative, definitive answer from somewhere. I wonder when/if I’ll receive an answer to my query from the C&CC. Maybe the MMM will print an answer in the next magazine, March? Still jumping through Brexit hoops. Cattwg :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 You’ve quoted from a GOOGLE-translated Dutch article that I gave a link to. I made no claims that the information/opinions in that article were correct - in fact the advice you’ve quoted is wrong. The following links correctly define the rules relating to travelling to the EU from a non-EU country. https://tinyurl.com/y34vnh9d https://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/animalproducts/personal_imports_en Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gassygassy Posted January 10, 2021 Share Posted January 10, 2021 Hooray thank you Derek. I had been wondering if the ban included tinned meat and fish. Anyway it's no big deal, even if we weren't allowed to take stuff it isn't going to stop us travelling is it? The chance would be a fine thing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 As I read it you are entitled to take in 20kg of eviscerated fresh fish, or one whole eviscerated fish if larger! Could get a bit monotonous though!! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamRienza Posted January 11, 2021 Share Posted January 11, 2021 This seems to be the first incidences of food confiscation at the Dutch border. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9134685/Dutch-police-officers-laugh-British-truck-driver-confiscate-ham-sandwiches.html Davy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 The Dutch article referred to in your link was dated 8 January 2020 and the Daily Mail piece was published yesterday. The person whose sandwich was confiscated was Polish, not a “British truck driver” but, of course, one should not expect the Mail to bother with factual accuracy. (There’s also a throw-away comment on another forum that Spanish border control personnel are taking similar measures at the Spain/Gibraltar border.) While these restrictions will be a potential nuisance to travellers from the UK to the EU, particularly truckers and leisure-vehicle owners, the rules are not NEW. The impact on UK-to-EU travellers was nil until 1 January 2021, but the current regulations themselves came into force on 10 October 2019 and are clearly detailed in this link https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32019R2122 There were also caveats in these 8 April 2019 “The Local” and “The Connexion” articles https://www.thelocal.fr/20190408/bovril-will-still-be-on-french-shop-shelves-post-brexit https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Brexit/No-British-meat-or-cheese-allowed-in-luggage-after-no-deal-Brexit Travellers to the EU will eventually get used to the regulations and it’s surely not something to go ballistic about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 TeamRienza - 2021-01-11 6:42 PM This seems to be the first incidences of food confiscation at the Dutch border. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9134685/Dutch-police-officers-laugh-British-truck-driver-confiscate-ham-sandwiches.html Davy It would be interesting to know what happens to the " dangerous " food that is confiscated. In TV programmes about 'illegal' food crossing the border into N.Z or Australia, it goes straight into a bin. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeamRienza Posted January 12, 2021 Share Posted January 12, 2021 Interesting then that the BBC are carrying the same confiscation of sandwich story, I assume this puts the bbc who keep flaunting their ‘fact checking’ credentials on the same level as the Mail. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55622331 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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