Considering a motorhome to also regularly work in for a couple

[v23509l]

Agreed, I would rather not be one of the generator guys :)

 

Agreed, office config and autonomy are the two questions, and first is more important. I can see two options really:

1. Something really clever with the cab area, the table and passenger seats. Any ideas what?

2. If, like in Adria, the bed can be raised, maybe underneath there could be place for two office chairs and a table? A table could be as such that it can be lowered to lie flat on the floor, while the office chairs would be on the sides. This could allow some garage space for a few foldable bikes to be placed on the lied down table. What do you think?

[vindiboy]

My van also has an 800 watt inverter fitted , it is good for charging lap tops , hair cutting machine etc and also our domestic spin drier which we take with us on long wild camping trips, it is only 450 watts and clothes come out of it almost dry after a spin, remember we are way off grid when using it ,hee hee.

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-07-10 8:12 AM

A ‘gas free’ motorhome is a practical proposition nowadays using a compressor fridge, a diesel-fuelled hob and diesel-fuelled heating.

However, a major difficulty (as Spirou has highlighted) is that - if you chose a compact-size off-the-peg new motorhome within your €65K budget - and then had it modified to cope with your electricity demands, the exercise would be challenging and expensive. And if you opted for the ‘bespoke design’ route - where you could choose the interior layout to optimise the living/sleeping/working combination - the cost would be even higher.

You said in your initial enquiry “We don’t need anything huge”, but to successfully (and comfortably) work and live full-time for 3-5 months per year I believe you’ll need a motohome significantly longer than 6.5m. That may well translate to a weight above 3500kg which (given the late-30s age of you and you wife) could have driving-licence implications.

I agree, particularly on payload. Almost everything you want is adding weight to the vehicle. The autonomy you are seeking suggests a largish fresh water tank, say 100L (= 100kg) - you'll still want to wash and shower, even off grid! Then the electrical equipment you want to power suggests a large battery bank, even with lithium. You then need to be realistic over what battery capacity you will actually need. If you work the batteries hard (even lithium) you will shorten their service lives. You can be kinder to the batteries by increasing the size of the battery bank, but this will add weight and complexity in terms of charging from the alternator, which will have a limited available output. Also, bear in mind that batteries do not like to be discharged fully, as they then suffer damage, they need to be charged at a suitably controlled rate, and many will advise that, perhaps especially with lithium, they should ideally not be charged beyond 80% of max capacity, as they tend to suffer with heating on the last 20%, which can damage their chemistry.

 

In short, you are trying to get a quart into a pint pot, and I think the first thing that will suffer on a 3.5 tonne van will be the payload - to the extent that you will be liable to find what is left after the above deductions has become unworkable in practical terms - especially for extended stays off grid, but even if staying on camp sites and using 230V electricity.

 

My first reaction is that you should proceed slowly. You say you will hire before you buy, and that is an excellent decision, and I think it would be worth hiring more than once, preferably different vans. If your working space is to be your dining space, look very closely at the table sizes in the vans as many are, when you sit opposite each other, too narrow to get two normal sized dining plates opposite.

 

Yes, do go to the Dusseldorf show to look at what is available. You will need several days, as after looking at the range available, and even with the aid of photographs, it becomes very difficult to remember which van had that extra advantage that you remember, but can't recall which van it was.

 

I would advise that whatever you get you get it on a heavier than 3.5 tonne chassis that is plated down to 3.5 tonnes. Not so that you can load it beyond 3.5 tonnes, but so that you benefit from its higher accompanying axle loads. In most cases vans begin to exceed the permissible load on one, or other, axle before they are loaded to their maximum overall permissible weight.

 

The Adria Twin layout is very popular on Fiat, Citroen, Peugeot van conversions, and comes with many minor variations from almost every motorhome converter in Europe, most of whom are liable to be exhibiting at Dusseldorf! Our van being a case in point.

 

It is on the "heavy" Fiat chassis, but plated at 3,500kg, and is 6.0 metres long. The axle limits are 2,100 kg front, and 2,400kg rear (compared to the "light" chassis at 1850kg front and 2,000kg rear.

 

We have tended (pre Brexit and Covid) to travel for 10 or so weeks in spring, and 7 weeks or so in autumn - so we are either going from spring into summer, or from early to late autumn. This means having sufficient clothing and bedding for comfort in relative cold and heat and, of course wet weather clothing. We stay, more or less exclusively at campsites, and use their facilities.

 

Our van runs at about 3,470kg fully laden (1750kg front, 1,720 kg rear), and we do not have anything more than a full 100L fresh water tank, two gas cylinders (one 13kg, the other 6kg) and one 80Ah habitation battery. No solar panels, no added electrical installation, no bikes, and only a wind-out Thule awning.

 

The load is made of food, liquids, clothing, bedding, footwear, cooking utensils, outside table and chairs, and bathing and cleaning materials. Our total on the road added load (including the two of us) is just over 560kg.

 

Longer vans inevitably weigh more than shorter vans, so you will see why Derek and I are suggesting that you will find keeping within a 3.5 tonne limit, in a longer van, with your added batteries, solar panels, bites etc, challenging! I wouldn't say it can't be achieved, but you need the confidence, at the point when you hand over your money, that it will work - or else what? :-S

[curdle]

Brian Kirby - 2021-07-11 2:20 AM

 

In short, you are trying to get a quart into a pint pot, and I think the first thing that will suffer on a 3.5 tonne van will be the payload - to the extent that you will be liable to find what is left after the above deductions has become unworkable in practical terms - especially for extended stays off grid, but even if staying on camp sites and using 230V electricity.

I agree. I think having gone through the specs you suggest versus what I tried to achieve with a custom ordered vehicle, your 3500 kg weight limit is impossible. My opinion is that European motorhome manufacturers are universal dissemblers, when it comes to stating actual available payload. Yes at a formal campsite you can refill with water before showering but off-grid for 10 days? Not feasible at your restricted weight limit. I think your aspirations are not possible if in compliance with the law.

[spirou]

Forget gas for anything but cooking (if at all). If the plan is to travel around then you really don't want the hassle of finding a place that will refill your tank and nearly every country has a different gas bottle attachment. Yes, there are ways around this but diesel heating and compressor fridge make so much more sense if you want to be mobile.

 

We have a standard size gas tank used for cooking only and it lasts forever.

[v23509l]

Thank you all.

 

3,5t is a hard limit due to licence.

6,5m, just maybe 7m or so, is the upper length limit.

 

If the weight could be too big to prohibit a very large autonomy, then autonomy will be smaller, there is nothing else to it. It's not the end of the world. But we do need to able to work - if it will be a 5 day camping/working followed by 2 day wild camping during weekend rhythm, so be it, it's not bad.

 

I think I know much much more with your help. I would say only two things are left:

1. To visit Dusseldorf, and I will come back to you afterwards

2. If you have ideas for alternative physical work arrangements for an up to 7m vehicle, besides using the dinette space, and that preserves the full size bed, thanks in advance.

[Derek Uzzell]

In principle, a compact A-class design with a rear U-lounge should allow you to combine working and living in the lounge area, while the bed remains out of the way in the cab roof until it’s needed. For example the Eura Mobil Integra 650HS

 

https://www.euramobil.de/en/motorhomes/integra-line/il-650-hs/

 

This model is 6.5m long and marketed with a 3500kg maximum weight. It’s significant, though, that weights of 4250kg or 4400kg are also offered - which is usually a give-away that payload at 3500kg will be tight. The quoted price new is 77.740 € but that could rise dramatically if the vehicle were modified to provide the electrical autonomy you are seeking.

 

[v23509l]

Thank you. What I am not certain with the lounge, is whether it is really going to be more ergonomical than using the dinette area. I guess we will simply need to see in person.

[Brian Kirby]

spirou - 2021-07-10 8:56 PM

Forget gas for anything but cooking (if at all). If the plan is to travel around then you really don't want the hassle of finding a place that will refill your tank and nearly every country has a different gas bottle attachment. Yes, there are ways around this but diesel heating and compressor fridge make so much more sense if you want to be mobile.

We have a standard size gas tank used for cooking only and it lasts forever.

But, both place higher demands on battery power, especially, as I understand it, for ignition on diesel heaters where heat is required initially to vaporise the diesel, requiring a well charged battery. That, again, raises the requirement for a large battery bank and probably solar panels, again raising the question of weight and payload.

 

One possible solution for battery charging that hasn't been mentioned is a fuel cell. Very quiet, non hydro-carbon, various makes, various outputs, various fuel sources. Possibly EFOY, which seem readily enough available, run on methanol, and are reasonably light at around 7 - 8kg. However, not cheap, and you then need to carry methanol. You'll then have to balance less battery capacity against more fuel cell output, which is a matter of how hard the batteries will be worked (= battery life), how quickly a fuel cell can replenish the batteries vs how quickly use will drain them, weights, and cost.

 

To gain the greatest advantage from whatever combination appeals, I think the best starting point might be to look at van construction, concentrating especially on weight. Some build lighter than others, by using lighter, albeit often more expensive, materials. A good starting place would be to compare similar vans on the basis of claimed payloads, and then very carefully explore and adjust the payloads to strip away the various manufacturers marketing ploys. Just for example, what options are included/excluded within the specification of the model upon which the claimed payload is based. Then look at their statements as to the volume of fresh water included in the calculation (most specify only a few litres whatever size of tank is fitted), ditto diesel fuel, ditto the number, capacity, and construction (some quote steel, some aluminium) of gas cylinders included (and the amount of gas actually included). Tedious and frustrating, but ultimately a lot cheaper than finding that what you have just bought is heavier than you had expected, because of highly selective brochure claims. But, even after all that, and having chosen the lightest achievable starting weight, I still think you'll struggle at 3.5 tonnes max weight coupled with sort of extended, off grid, travel you wish to undertake.

 

On your fridge requirement, and that for an oven, two things. In van conversions, where the sides of the van bodyshell are almost invariably convex, the depth available for fridges is limited by the curvature of the side walls. For a tall fridge or fridge/freezer, a slab sided coachbuilt will give greater depth over the whole height of the fridge than can be achieved within a standard van bodyshell, so either potentially higher fridge capacity, or greater space between fridge and whatever is opposite. On the oven, remember it is only of use for certain kinds of cooking, and merely takes up otherwise valuable storage space the rest of the time. There is little that can be cooked in an oven, that cannot be satisfactorily cooked on a hob.

[Brian Kirby]

v23509l - 2021-07-10 11:31 PM....................

3,5t is a hard limit due to licence.

6,5m, just maybe 7m or so, is the upper length limit........................

But do keep in mind that, all other things being equal, greater length invariably brings greater vehicle self-weight, so to maximise the available payload you need to minimise vehicle length.

 

Using campsites during your working phases would allow greater scope for off grid weekends by reducing the amount of battery capacity, solar or whatever battery charging, food storage, water storage, and waste (all kinds including toilet) storage required over those two days. I would also suggest you'll get more out of your working days by using campsite facilities rather then your on-board facilities (which then have to be dried and cleaned).

[mikefitz]

I suggest if you are prepared to upgrade the electrical system and make minor additions to support the computer displays ,then the concept of living and working in a sub 6.4 meter 3500 kg van conversion is viable. Some care will be needed in selecting the model and there will be a need for you, the dealer or a specialist, to add and install the additional electrical items to support the off grid working.

 

The model you identified as suitable, the Adria twin sports, in my view, will have negative issues. The additional light panels in the roof will allow the van to heat up in summer , the pop top adds weight and gives a reduced roof area for solar panels.. There are other models in the Adria range that would be more suitable.

 

Air conditioning in particular requires considerable power that the basic battery system cannot provide. Running significant electrical systems without an AC connection to a power point such as provided by camp sites, requires a very different system than that provided by the manufacturer on all small motor homes.

 

Most motor home electrical systems are intended to be connected to 'shore power' and can only be 'self sufficient' for a day or so. Solar panels can help, but need to have greater power output than the 120 watts used as an example. This level of solar power will just about provide enough for a compressor fridge and a few LED lights, for a day.

 

The typical power consumed by the motor home systems ( assuming a compressor 12v fridge) will be to power the fridge, LED lights, water pump, heater control and distribution electrics ( assuming the heat is by LPG or diesel), phone chargers and entertainment systems. Typically in the region of 800 watts per day.

 

You need to carry out a power audit of your computer and monitors under your normal working conditions to establish the power needed per day, electrical power is measures in watts. For example my laptop uses 70 watts and a medium sized monitor 30 watts. If the total watts requires were 200 and used for 8 hours, that's 1600 watts per day ( this is worst case , in practice power use could be less)

 

A motor home specific air conditioning medium sized system will consume 1000 watts when cooling. If cooling for 8 hours, that's 8000 watts per day.

 

Where does the power come from.? At first one may say the batteries, but they should be regarded as a temporary store. Whilst connected to AC power in a camp site or camper stop, the power may range from 1000 watts to 3000 watts at 220 volts ac. That's not too bad, even at the lower value that's around 24000 watts per day. More that enough for camper loads, computing power and running the air conditioning for part of the day,

 

When not on 220ac power the electrical power is either from the engine or from solar panels. This will be used to charge up the batteries and power additional loads that exist during the day.

 

A 100 watts of solar panel with a quality solar controller will deliver 100 watts under ideal conditions. Because in practice the panel wont be at the ideal angle to the sun and the fact that the sun moves a bit during the day, you may get in the summer, 400 watts per day.

 

Engine installed charging systems will typically push 300 per hour into the van systems, but this could be ungraded with suitable chargers and batteries to approaching 1000 watts per hour.

 

Its most likely the van you select will have a compressor fridge, This is by far the best option for a small vehicle. Bottled gas or for cooking, the refillable bottles available from Alugas could be considered.

https://www.alugas.de/produkte/wohnmobil.html

 

Diesel powered space heating (and water heating if available) would reduce gas consumption.

 

The van drivers and passenger seats once swivelled are quite comfortable and will be adequate. Whilst the table will provide a useful space for the drivers or dinette seating, the passenger seat really needs additional work area. Options are to have a adjustable height 'camping' table (that could also be used outside , or a laptop table,

https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/cat/laptop-tables-24830/

 

Working off grid.

 

Summary. There will be a need for a specialist battery and charging system to enhance the standard installation.

 

Consider the accommodation air conditioning ( say 5000 euro for the 12v unit with install).

This is an expensive and power hungry item that is only viable when connected to shore supply. Working from the van battery system (even when upgraded) would only be possible for a very short time.

 

Based on the power values considered, the van 'camper' items together with the computer requirements add up to 2400 watts per day.

If this was taken from batteries that would need a battery capable of supplying 2.4kW, for a 12v battery full to empty that would need a 200Ah battery. (this is an 'ideal' battery).

 

Solar, using the fact that 100 watts of solar panel will produce 400 watts per day, there would be a need for 6 off 100 watt panels to meet the demand. 600 watts of panel area is just about possible on a 6 meter van but may/will need changes to the standard roof light layout. Portable solar panels whilst useful, need storage space when not in use, and become a deployment chore and may be a security problem. Beware the low cost flexible solar panels on the market, they are poor quality and rarely last more that a year.

 

Engine charging. Its possible to take a maximum of around 60 amps from the engine charging system without affecting reliability. The power is converted with a so called Battery to Battery charger that charges the leisure batteries.

https://www.votronic.de/index.php/en/products2/series-vcc/standard-version/vcc-1212-50-new

 

With suitable batteries the power put into the batteries will be around 700 watts per hour. So that's 3 to 4 hours driving to cover one days power use.

 

Batteries needed. There is a need for batteries with a usable capacity of at least 200 Ah, with fast efficient charging. The only battery that should be considered is a lithium battery system with 300 to 400 Ah capacity ( single or multiple batteries to meet the required capacity).

 

The electrics needs to be considered as a complete system and installing and successfully integrating into the standard electronics needs a dealer or specialist competent is this area.

 

Mike

[v23509l]

You guys are truly awesome. I couldn't have hoped for such help.

 

What do you mean with additional light panels that could heat the van?

 

That Adria is just a reference, not something that ticks all the boxes.

 

So, to sum it all up, is this correct:

Almost impossible to have a 5 day autonomy for a van up to 3,5t with our energy requirements. However, in a camp, during a working week, we can easily work, have the fridge, use the oven, and have air con? And then, for the weekend, when we will not be working at all, we can manage our electricity needs for a couple of days.

[colin]

I've just remembered another van you might consider La Strada Regent L.

A van conversion with a extra high top. The bed is a pull down like a A class, this leaves the full floor space for a lounge, galley and washroom.

I've not seen the latest models, but one we saw about 10 years ago would make make a great base for working, with plenty of room in the lounge.

[v23509l]

La Strada is interesting. But there is no garage space at all?

 

Btw., what are the downsides with such high vans? Where are the constraints really visible?

[Derek Uzzell]

Reviews of La Strada "Regent" models can be found here

 

https://tinyurl.com/46aermza

 

The vehicle's extra height will result in increased frontal area and side winds will have potentially more effect - but that will equally be true for 'tall' coachbuilt motorhomes.

 

(Obviously any roof bed that cannot be lowered well down will require a ladder to use. It's not something I'd find acceptable, but no worse really than an 'alkoven' bed.)

[colin]

v23509l - 2021-07-12 12:45 PM

 

La Strada is interesting. But there is no garage space at all?

 

Btw., what are the downsides with such high vans? Where are the constraints really visible?

 

Depends what you want to store, the galley area has more cupboards than something like the Adria, also the rear floor area of van is raised which gives a storage area for relatively flat items, something like bikes will need to go on a rear rack, but then even with our large garage space we still have to store bikes on a rack. When you see something like the Adria having bikes inside, well it can be done, but I doubt many people do that, most will have a rear rack.

I must say we turned down getting one due to gf's claustrophobia kicking in due to having to climb into bed, but many people are very happy with A class type pull down beds.

[fripp]

v23509l - 2021-07-11 3:30 PM

 

You guys are truly awesome. I couldn't have hoped for such help.

 

What do you mean with additional light panels that could heat the van?

 

That Adria is just a reference, not something that ticks all the boxes.

 

So, to sum it all up, is this correct:

Almost impossible to have a 5 day autonomy for a van up to 3,5t with our energy requirements. However, in a camp, during a working week, we can easily work, have the fridge, use the oven, and have air con? And then, for the weekend, when we will not be working at all, we can manage our electricity needs for a couple of days.

 

Everything is a compromise in motorhoming. I would review your 240 VAC power requirements and see if you can make do with low power alternatives. If you can this will give you benefits in space, weight, and power. Laptops can be very powerful machines these days and for not much power consumption could give you what is 'good enough'. Look for car charge options as opposed the the standard 240 VAC adapter for these as these will eek your battery out much further than a 240VAC inverter. Similarly a compressor only fridge will unlikely last long in the heat of the summer. A three way fridge is the way to go to off grid.

[v23509l]

colin - 2021-07-12 2:04 PM

 

v23509l - 2021-07-12 12:45 PM

 

La Strada is interesting. But there is no garage space at all?

 

Btw., what are the downsides with such high vans? Where are the constraints really visible?

Depends what you want to store, the galley area has more cupboards than something like the Adria, also the rear floor area of van is raised which gives a storage area for relatively flat items, something like bikes will need to go on a rear rack, but then even with our large garage space we still have to store bikes on a rack. When you see something like the Adria having bikes inside, well it can be done, but I doubt many people do that, most will have a rear rack.

I must say we turned down getting one due to gf's claustrophobia kicking in due to having to climb into bed, but many people are very happy with A class type pull down beds.

You think that foldable ebikes cannot fit into something like Adria?

 

For claustrophobia, no issues there, but we will simply need to see in person.

 

What about driving with such a high van? Any effect on road rules applicable to us?

[v23509l]

v23509l - 2021-07-11 3:30 PM

So, to sum it all up, is this correct:

Almost impossible to have a 5 day autonomy for a van up to 3,5t with our energy requirements. However, in a camp, during a working week, we can easily work, have the fridge, use the oven, and have air con? And then, for the weekend, when we will not be working at all, we can manage our electricity needs for a couple of days.

So, this is mostly true?

[fripp]

Mostly. You may run out of power over the weekend as the compressor only fridge in high 30 degree heat will be running most of the time.

[v23509l]

Btw. what is it with weight requirements? The legal limit is 3,5t, but I now read that many many people go over this limit. Not by much, but some. What could happen if you're driving with 3,7t? Theoretically, it could be checked, but who is going to bother, seeing 2 people in a relatively small van?

[colin]

v23509l - 2021-07-12 3:35 PM

 

colin - 2021-07-12 2:04 PM

 

v23509l - 2021-07-12 12:45 PM

 

La Strada is interesting. But there is no garage space at all?

 

Btw., what are the downsides with such high vans? Where are the constraints really visible?

Depends what you want to store, the galley area has more cupboards than something like the Adria, also the rear floor area of van is raised which gives a storage area for relatively flat items, something like bikes will need to go on a rear rack, but then even with our large garage space we still have to store bikes on a rack. When you see something like the Adria having bikes inside, well it can be done, but I doubt many people do that, most will have a rear rack.

I must say we turned down getting one due to gf's claustrophobia kicking in due to having to climb into bed, but many people are very happy with A class type pull down beds.

You think that foldable ebikes cannot fit into something like Adria?

 

For claustrophobia, no issues there, but we will simply need to see in person.

 

What about driving with such a high van? Any effect on road rules applicable to us?

A couple of folding ebikes should fit in the Adria, but my point was very few would put full size bikes in as shown on the website as you have to either take them out or have bed raised when going to sleep.

I'm not sure if you can fit folding bikes in the La Strada, I'd guess not, but you would need to look at one to see.

[v23509l]

Agreed. Full-size bikes in Adria seems stupid, I would never do it, you literally need to squeeze into your bed. Foldable, yes.

[BruceM]

v23509l - 2021-07-12 3:35 PM

 

v23509l - 2021-07-11 3:30 PM

So, to sum it all up, is this correct:

Almost impossible to have a 5 day autonomy for a van up to 3,5t with our energy requirements. However, in a camp, during a working week, we can easily work, have the fridge, use the oven, and have air con? And then, for the weekend, when we will not be working at all, we can manage our electricity needs for a couple of days.

So, this is mostly true?

I think my one concern with the statement is that a continental campsite may not supply sufficient EHU power for a compressor fridge, an aircon system and all the computer equipment operating at the same time. It was my understanding that many continental EHU supplies are no more than 6 amps. I'm assuming that by 'use the oven' it would be on gas.

 

This may provide some perspective https://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/travelabroad/camping-in-europe/european-campsites/electricity/

[v23509l]

Well, that sounds like a joke. Come on - we will move to another campsite if we cannot run a small fridge, air con, 2 laptops and monitors in such a small van. What about people with 8+ meter motorhomes if ours can be such a problem?

 

Oven is less important, I think we will come back to this/microwave at a later stage.

 

Btw -where do you buy gas canisters, and can you buy them in any country easily?