Considering a motorhome to also regularly work in for a couple

[Keithl]

v23509l - 2021-07-28 12:53 PM

 

I checked the charger label. Of the relevant information, it says:

Max 65 W

Input: 100-240 V - 1,8 A

Output: 20V ~ 3,25A 65W/15V ~ 3A

9V ~ 2A/5V ~ 2A 10W

The ~ sign represents two short lines one above the other, the lower one dotted.

The solid line above a dotted line indicates DC (Direct Current) (as opposed to AC, a wavy line).

 

v23509l - 2021-07-28 12:53 PM

 

A question. Everyone is talking about charging a laptop from a lighter socket. This means that laptops cannot be charged from USB sockets normally found next to the bed due to a too low voltage? If this is true, how would you charge a laptop while watching something on the bed if you don't have an appropriate DC socket or an AC inverter socket nearby?

You would need a long 12 volt DC lead of suitable wire size to reduce voltage drop.

 

Keith.

[v23509l]

Nice, I didn't know about the lines marking current types.

 

For the latter, is it possible to have a lighter socket or similar installed next to the bed? How much voltage is a lighter socket usually? I assume more than 20V, the requirement of my Lenovo.

[Keithl]

A lighter socket will have to be connected to the leisure battery so will be 12 volts. You will then have to get an adaptor to power your laptop from this 12 volt socket, as suggested above.

 

Keith.

[v23509l]

Understood. And the standard USB sockets provide 5V? So, in theory, they could also be used to provide 20V with a proper adapter?

[colin]

v23509l - 2021-07-28 3:31 PM

 

Understood. And the standard USB sockets provide 5V? So, in theory, they could also be used to provide 20V with a proper adapter?

A USB socket will have been stepped down from 12v, you will then be stepping it up again to 20v, not very efficient.

It is better to have a 12v socket then use a 12v charger, I do this with my Dell.

[v23509l]

Understood. And in motorhomes, what types of 12V sockets normally exist, aside from a lighter socket?

 

When you say a 12V charger, you mean an adapter from 12V to whichever DC voltage your Dell uses?

[v23509l]

With Dusseldorf approaching, and I still need to fit a rent before if possible, any tips? Can the price in fairs in general, and Dusseldorf, be negotiated? Is it normally cheaper to buy in Dusseldorf, end of August, or in November, when people say prices could be lowest?

 

Dusseldorf itself is massive, with over 2000! vehicles. Trailers I will skip, large motorhomes also. Interestingly, only 2 pavilions out of 15 or so are dedicated to van conversions.

[Derek Uzzell]

v23509l - 2021-07-28 5:07 PM

 

Understood. And in motorhomes, what types of 12V sockets normally exist, aside from a lighter socket?...

The 12V sockets normally fitted to motorhomes will be the DIN type shown in these adverts

 

https://tinyurl.com/rx7v23xv

 

https://www.roadpro.co.uk/catalogue/02g04-procar-din-type-sockets

 

and there are examples of plugs here

 

https://www.roadpro.co.uk/catalogue/02g03-procar-universal-plugs

 

There’s plenty of online advice on buying/ordering a motorhome from a Show (a couple of examples here)

 

https://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/how-to-buy-a-motorhome-at-a-show

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/magazine/buying-a-van-at-a-motorhome-show/

 

The motorhome’s price can be negotiated (though that’s just as true when visiting a motorhome dealership’s premises) but you need to be sure you know where the vendor is located geographically to avoid finding out subsequently that you’ll have a 500km round-trip to have any problems addressed. It’s also worth saying that a long lead-time (eg. well over 6 months) between ordering a new motorhome and handover to the buyer is commonplace.

 

The number of companies that only produce panel-van conversions (PVCs) will be relatively small (Globecar, Roadcar, Westfalia, CS-Reismobile are German examples I can think of) but most manufacturers of coachbuilt motorhomes also build PVCs.

 

Regarding hiring, as you’ll be doing this in Germany a GOOGLE-search should be the best way to obtain information. It would make sense to choose a vehicle similar to what you plan to end up with (a PVC) and a hire company reasonably close to where you live.

[Brian Kirby]

v23509l - 2021-07-29 12:41 AM

1 a) Can the price in fairs in general, and Dusseldorf, be negotiated? b) Is it normally cheaper to buy in Dusseldorf, end of August, or in November, when people say prices could be lowest?

2 Dusseldorf itself is massive, with over 2000! vehicles. Trailers I will skip, large motorhomes also. Interestingly, only 2 pavilions out of 15 or so are dedicated to van conversions.

1 a) Can't say for Dusseldorf specifically, but generally, yes. b) Difficult. You may find special "show" prices at Dusseldorf as dealers try to maximise their orders to gain maximum volume discounts from manufacturers. The lower prices in Autumn generally relate to unsold vans that dealers already have in stock and want to sell before Winter, when the number of buyers reduces. The peak season for selling begins in Spring, which is also when the manufacturers begin shipping out the new season's vans. Those caught with large stocks of unsold vans in Spring can then have difficulty accommodating the new deliveries. Motorhome sales are very seasonal. However, because of your specific requirements, your van seems unlikely to be found sitting on a dealer's forecourt just waiting for you to arrive and take it away! You might get lucky, but it seems that you will require a number of manufacturer's options to be included, so finding the correct combination for your particular needs among existing stock seems improbable. I think you will have to place a specific order, and will probably then have to wait some time while it is produced.

 

Two things to bear in mind. First it is generally better to buy from a dealer who is within easy reach of where you live. At the shows, it is not always clear where the dealer who is offering the lowest price is, actually, based. Many (most?) new vans arrive with teething problems, so it is quite probable that you will need to take your new van back to the dealer who sold it for these to be fixed. Although manufacturers' warranties may say or imply (and usually do!) that warranty work can be undertaken by any franchised dealer, UK experience is that dealers who did not take the profit from the initial sale are reluctant to handle issues on vehicles they did not sell. (The usual justification is that the manufacturers' hourly rate for warranty work is below local rates, so warranty work is uneconomical for them without the profit from the initial sale to cushion the difference.) This aspect of motorhome manufacturers' warranties does not work with vans as it does with cars! 8-) You may not find outright refusal, but you may find workshops are suddenly very heavily booked etc. and that the work cannot be undertaken promptly. Not good if the dealer who supplied your van is 200 miles away! So probably better to buy as locally as you can. Second, it can be instructive to visit dealers premises before buying to gauge the sort of business you will be dealing with. What does their establishment look, and feel, like? How do they welcome you? Are they merely pushing for a sale, or will they give you time? Do they have adequate workshop staff, or just a harassed workshop manager with a couple of apprentices? You can't get this feel for the dealer at a show when they're all in their Sunday best and competing with the next guy for you custom!

 

Yes, the Dusseldorf Messe is huge! You will see a huge range of vehicles, and it will become very difficult to remember - even at the end of a single day - which were the ones that came closest to your ideal. Take a lot of pictures, and remember to include a picture of the manufacturer's information board of any that interest you, so that you have a record of make, model, and price as a reference for any pictures you take inside the van. Do look at things like cooker, fridge (especially whether it has automatic or manual energy selection), size and shape of storage lockers. Do go into wash/shower rooms and try out the layouts for practicality, including any shower screens/curtains, toilet locations, whether tip-up washbasins seem practical, and above all try to lie on the beds and sit at the dining tables to see if they are, actually, adequate in size. Collect brochures, and especially the technical brochures that list (generally) all the available options along with their cost and (with eventual payload in mind) weights. Annotate the brochures as you go.

 

These vehicles are an endless succession of compromises between utility and available space, so any van that looks unusually spacious for its size may be unusually clever in its design, or it may simply have left something/s out! Check the sizes of gas lockers, for instance. Some will take 2 x 11kg (or even 13kg) cylinders, whereas another may take only 5/6 kg cylinder. Ditto fresh water tanks. Ditto hob/cooker arrangements. Is the added space gained from the reduced gas/water/cooker size worth the reduced utility?

 

It may be helpful if you can arrange your hire (McRent? :-)) so that it ends shortly before you visit Dusseldorf, as you will then have your experience of the hire van fresh in your minds when looking at other vans. Above all, take you time - you will have a lot to absorb and will almost certainly need to go back to check things you missed on your first sweep. 2 - 3 days? Good lick!

[v23509l]

Thank you, I will come well prepared. A few things.

What are automatic/manual energy selection fridges? I learned of types, such as compressor.

For showering in small spaces, how do you actually dress up? Do you need to leave the shower to dress due to lack of space?

[colin]

v23509l - 2021-07-29 11:43 AM

For showering in small spaces, how do you actually dress up? Do you need to leave the shower to dress due to lack of space?

This is one of the reasons we love our Globecar Campscout, and are looking at a Cathago 143, in the case of the Campscout we can use the entire rear or front as a dressing area after showering, for the 143 the entire rear can be use for dressing, as the shower 'door' divides the van.

[Brian Kirby]

v23509l - 2021-07-29 11:43 AM

Thank you, I will come well prepared. A few things.

What are automatic/manual energy selection fridges? I learned of types, such as compressor........................................

There are still three versions of the so called 3-way fridge (that is to say fridges that run on gas, 12V power when travelling, and 230V power when available).

 

Manual, can be via a single cell battery requiring the user to press in an igniter button on the fridge front panel to generate a spark to ignite the gas or, if designated MES, is more sophisticated with the 12V spark ignition provided from the habitation battery. In the former case once cooling on gas the flame will remain lit until the fridge is turned off (or an alternative energy source is selected by the user), and in the latter case the gas will cycle on/off as required to maintain cooling, but the energy selection knob has first to be set manually to gas, whereafter the ignition sequence will initiate without further intervention.

 

Those fridges designated AES will seek an energy source in the order 230V (default), 12V and finally gas, so if 230V is not present but gas is it will automatically select and ignite the gas, and if neither is present it will select 12V. So apart from turning on the fridge, and remembering to also turn on the gas at the cylinder, the user can leave the fridge to its own selection, switching between 12V when the engine is running, to gas when the engine is stopped, and to 230V when that is connected. The main advantage is that as few fridges are installed within reach of the front driver's and passenger's seats, there is no need to leave those seats to manually change the energy source. Cherry on the cake, the switch to gas from 12V is time delayed to prevent gas ignition if the vehicle mas merely stopped at a filling station.

 

The above is Dometic terminology, but Thetford fridges offer a similar range of automation.

 

The manual fridge with battery ignition is relatively shallow, so is quite popular with van converters, but it is somewhat of a fag in practise, so if there is an option (at additional cost) to opt for an AES type fridge it would be well worth selecting, IMO. Hope this helps.

 

12V compressor fridges always run from the habitation battery and for that reason additional battery capacity is required to meet its demands if the van is to be used off grid for more than a day or so, especially in hot weather.

[v23509l]

colin - 2021-07-29 12:16 PM

 

v23509l - 2021-07-29 11:43 AM

For showering in small spaces, how do you actually dress up? Do you need to leave the shower to dress due to lack of space?

This is one of the reasons we love our Globecar Campscout, and are looking at a Cathago 143, in the case of the Campscout we can use the entire rear or front as a dressing area after showering, for the 143 the entire rear can be use for dressing, as the shower 'door' divides the van.

I will keep an eye on this. I think some degree of privacy there could be welcome.

[v23509l]

Brian Kirby - 2021-07-29 1:24 PM

 

v23509l - 2021-07-29 11:43 AM

Thank you, I will come well prepared. A few things.

What are automatic/manual energy selection fridges? I learned of types, such as compressor........................................

There are still three versions of the so called 3-way fridge (that is to say fridges that run on gas, 12V power when travelling, and 230V power when available).

 

Manual, can be via a single cell battery requiring the user to press in an igniter button on the fridge front panel to generate a spark to ignite the gas or, if designated MES, is more sophisticated with the 12V spark ignition provided from the habitation battery. In the former case once cooling on gas the flame will remain lit until the fridge is turned off (or an alternative energy source is selected by the user), and in the latter case the gas will cycle on/off as required to maintain cooling, but the energy selection knob has first to be set manually to gas, whereafter the ignition sequence will initiate without further intervention.

 

Those fridges designated AES will seek an energy source in the order 230V (default), 12V and finally gas, so if 230V is not present but gas is it will automatically select and ignite the gas, and if neither is present it will select 12V. So apart from turning on the fridge, and remembering to also turn on the gas at the cylinder, the user can leave the fridge to its own selection, switching between 12V when the engine is running, to gas when the engine is stopped, and to 230V when that is connected. The main advantage is that as few fridges and installed within reach of the front driver's and passenger's seats, there is no need to leave those seats to manually change the energy source. Cherry on the cake, the switch to gas from 12V is time delayed to prevent gas ignition if the vehicle mas merely stopped at a filling station.

 

The above is Dometic terminology, but Thetford fridges offer a similar range of automation.

 

The manual fridge with battery ignition is relatively shallow, so is quite popular with van converters, but it is somewhat of a fag in practise, so if there is an option (at additional cost) to opt for an AES type fridge it would be well worth selecting, IMO. Hope this helps.

 

12V compressor fridges always run from the habitation battery and for that reason additional battery capacity is required to meet its demands if the van is to be used off grid for more than a day or so, especially in hot weather.

It helps, thanks. I haven't seen 3-way fridges in new vans often, mostly compressors, i.e. 12V only. But to be seen in Dusseldorf.

[Brian Kirby]

If you look at the options lists you should find that some offer a three way fridge alternative as an option. Most of the coachbuilt motorhomes have the three way fridge as standard, with a few offering a compressor fridge as an option.

 

I see three disadvantages to compressor fridges in motorhomes. First, the need for greater battery and charging capacity, with its attendant weight penalty, to meet the demands of the fridge when not driving or connected to 230V. Second (particularly if the fridge is close to the head end of the bed), noise from the compressor (they are very quiet - but so (usually) is the dead of night!). Third, in hot weather the fridge will work hard and few, if any, of them make provision for the waste condenser heat to be dumped externally, so adding to the internal temperature of the van. It may not be much, but on a hot, sultry, airless, night, who wants that bit of extra heat?

 

OTOH, the three way absorption fridge is virtually silent as it has no moving parts, places minimal demand on battery capacity, and dumps its condenser heat outside the van. Against this it will consume gas while off grid - although relative to other consumers such as apace/water heating and cooking, its consumption is low. Whether running on 230V or 12V, the energy costs for both absorption and compressor fridges of similar size are broadly similar.

[v23509l]

Good to know, Brian, thank you. What I've read sums up into this: some people swear in compressor fridges and some in 3-way fridges. It's quite difficult to figure it out. 3-way seems more versatile as it isn't reliant on 12V only when off-grid, but it is more difficult to repair for instance.

 

To continue: I see that many offers include additional packages with an awning option. How necessary is an awning at the start, can it be bought later? As I understand it (my knowledge here is still quite weak), there are many types of awnings. Some swear in their usefulness, others rarely use them.

[v23509l]

Too add to awnings. Reading this: https://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/motorhomes/articles/practical-advice/a-guide-to-awnings-for-motorhomes-and-campervans

 

...we should have a wind-out awning by default. I don't understand what is the meaning then of an awning offered as part of an additional package when buying a motorhome. Is it normally composed of supporting walls for the wind-out, is it a completely independent awning? In general, I like the idea of being able to get additional walls to the wind-out, if it is normally a good option compared to having a full, independent awning.

[Brian Kirby]

On fridge type, as with many things on motorhomes, people inevitably have their likes and dislikes. :-)

 

This for background. None of my comments should be taken as being any more than my opinions, which have developed over the 15 or so years we've had motorhomes. They merely reflect what has worked for us as we've happily wandered Europe, spring and autumn, spending between five and twelve weeks on each trip. During the trips we have inevitably traversed seasons, latitude, and altitude, so we've always had in mind that we move around quite a lot, seldom spending more than a week in any one location. We don't set a single objective, but having established an end point for a trip, we add other places of interest to visit as we travel, even including, when practical, lunch breaks. We seldom travel more than 250 miles in a day, often considerably less. We use the site sanitary facilities, so our on board facilities are very lightly used. In these respects, my impression is that we are not typical!

 

So, on fridges, we have found the three way option has worked very well. We almost invariably stay on campsites, whether for overnight stops or for longer, and invariably opt to have 230V power. So, we always (subject to availability) have the fridge on 230V when stopped, on 12V while travelling, and on gas when we stop for meal or comfort breaks. We have had two fridges with manual energy selection, one with automatic energy selection, and the present one, which is manual energy selection with battery gas ignition. Based on this experience, I cannot understand why every motorhome, of whatever size, is not equipped, as standard, with an AES fridge (of whatever size)! :-D The absorption fridges are extraordinarily reliable and last for years. Having said that, like any mechanical device, they can go wrong, but unless the actual refrigerant is lost they are relatively easily repaired, albeit the parts are not particularly cheap. Replacement fridges, OTOH are, compared to the cost of domestic fridges, very costly. As a general, but not incontrovertible, rule these things fail relatively early, or last almost indefinitely. All the manual fridges are a relative pain, as one has to remember to switch energy at every break. I don't know why, but of one forgets, one invariably remembers on a stretch of road where there and no convenient stopping places. But, we have never had a compressor fridge, and on the present van, opted for the absorption alternative in lieu of the standard compressor item.

 

I will answer you awning questions, on the above personal experience basis, later, possibly tomorrow, as I'm being told I must now go to eat! :-D

[Derek Uzzell]

v23509l - 2021-07-29 4:53 PM

 

...we should have a wind-out awning by default...

Not sure what you mean by that statement.

 

Some motorhomes have an awning as part of the standard specification and some motorhomes can be ordered with a factory-fitted awning. Alternatively an awning can be retrofitted professionally or as a DIY task.

 

This link might help

 

https://www.dometic.com/en-gb/outdoor/uk/products/climate/awnings/awning-buying-guide

[Keithl]

Still on the subject of fridges, you have already said you will be very heavy users of any available electrical power, be it 12 volts or 230 volts so by opting for a 3-way fridge this can be run very economically on gas and will help preserve your battery power when not on EHU.

 

And on to awnings... the fitment of a wind out awning will not normally be 'inclusive' in a van conversions specification so check carefully. And as to 'Safari rooms' which is the generic term for all the attachable sides. Opinions vary and they are best classed as a Marmite addition. They can be very heavy and you will already be struggling for payload so consider carefully before buying one. And don't forget a wind out awning will also eat substantially into your payload. A 3 metre long awning weighs well over 20 kg.

 

Keith.

[v23509l]

Thank you!

 

For fridge, I will definitely be looking for AES and I will research the types more.

 

For awnings, I definitely want an awning like in Adria, which is I assume a wind out. For Adria, I thought this was standard but I might be wrong. I always thought that wind out is a given, and that an optional awning includes a more robust structure. I am trying to find the exact info for Adria, unsuccessfully so far.

[Derek Uzzell]

In your original posting you mentioned the Adria Twin Sports mode. This is described here

 

https://www.adria.co.uk/vans/twin-sports#

 

and the “Accessories” statement is as follows:

 

ACCESSORIES

Ready to go accessories, include the following options, which can be ordered at your Adria dealer:

 

Awning

Air Conditioning

Solar Panels

Mini Heki

Electrical power-sliding door

 

It should be plain from this that an awning is a factory-fitted option for that model and not part of the standard specification.

 

I can’t find online a 2021 Adria UK price-list, but the final “Options” page of this 2019 list

 

https://www.adria-motorhomes.co.uk/sites/default/files/products/brochure/van_brochure_pricelist.pdf

 

listed the price of an awning as £680 and its weight as 10kg (which sounds remarkably light!)

 

Keithl has warned that the weight of an awning will eat into a motorhome’s available payload, but at least a ‘fixed’ roof-mounted wind-out awning won’t eat into storage space. If you wanted to add ‘walls’ to the awning (to convert it into a Safari Room) you’d need to consider where in the motorhome you’d store the walls - that will be bulky when folded up (and possibly wet!) - while travelling or when the walls were not attached to the awning.

 

On Page 3 of this discussion Jeremy (laimeduck) said "you could always consider fixing a towbar and buying a trailer to help payload”, but for long-term living/working in a small motorhome shortage of onboard storage space may prove much more restrictive than available payload. Although adding a tow-bar and its electics would reduce payload by (say) 35kg and not be cheap (say £1200) and there’s be the cost of the trailer too, you'd then be able to offload on to the trailer bulky/heavy items (bikes, awning walls, gas BBQ, etc.) and free up storage space inside the vehicle.

 

[v23509l]

Yes, that kind of a wind out awning is a must. Can the walls always be added to it at a later stage? I assume all such awnings are similar and that walls should work for all or nearly all, but correct me if I am wrong.

[v23509l]

And regarding the Adria brochure:

 

What is the point of alko air suspension, why would you need it?

I know see that aircon is split in two, cab and habitation. Is this common?

Why is towbar so expensive?

Is metallic point really needed? I would try to aim for inconspicuousness, something not screaming out. I assume white is the best to handle the heat?

What is the use of alde heat exchanger? In particular if you already got heating e.g. via diesel?

What is this isofix double installation only under 2 dinette seats?

MTPLM to 3800 means a chassis is strengthened for up to 3800kg? How come this comes at no cost and carries no weight?

[Brian Kirby]

v23509l - 2021-07-30 8:14 AM

Yes, that kind of a wind out awning is a must. Can the walls always be added to it at a later stage? I assume all such awnings are similar and that walls should work for all or nearly all, but correct me if I am wrong.

So, on awnings, Derek and Keith have already answered your question regarding whether a wind-out awning is a standard fitment, and whether it can be added later.

 

Broadly, there are three types of awning:

1, the simple wind out variety, which is permanently attached to the van.

2, a) a removable awning that attaches to the van via a purpose made channel in much the same way as a normal caravan awning, or b) the so called Safari-Room, which comprises three panels and two additional rafter poles, which together allow the wind-out to be converted into a fully enclosed "room" - the fourth wall of which is, of course, the side wall of the van.

3, a free standing awning which is, in effect, a gazebo with walls, some of which have a linking flysheet that can be attached to a channel attached to the van as for the type 2) a) above, to give shelter to the space between van and awning.

 

In the case of types 2) a) and 3), especially with relatively compact vans, the main immediate disadvantage (IMO) is the added bulk and weight that has to be transported - but where? :-D In the case of type 2) b), the panels and additional rafter poles still have to be transported so, although lower in bulk and weight, they still share these (IMO) disadvantages of types 2) a) and 3), albeit to a lesser extent. The further disadvantage of all type 2 and 3 awnings is that if you have to take them down wet and transfer the wet "canvas" (often in fact a reasonably unshrinkable synthetic) into the van, you will need good waterproof storage bags (storage bags will normally come with them - but I don't know about the "waterproof" bit!). However, if packed wet, they must be dried as soon as possible or mildew will develop on the wet fabric. So, if unavoidably packed wet on the last night of a trip, you'll need to consider whether you have access to a suitable space to dry them once back home.

 

This leaves type 1), the simple wind out awning. They are made from a plasticised fabric which is waterproof and washable, so are less prone to problems if wound in wet. They are attached to the van externally, so apart from their added weight (which should not be overlooked when calculating payload), they take no space inside. They can be used as a rain shelter above the door if partially extended, and provide agreeable shade when fully extended. But, never leave a wind out awning extended with its open end horizontal. You would be amazed how large a lake of rainwater can develop on the fabric after a shower! Always tilt the outer end down to one side or the other so that water is shed at the corner.

 

Their Achilles heel is that, being in essence a large sail extending horizontally from the side of the van at roof level, they are extremely susceptible to wind. This should not be underestimated as, given the area of this sail, if left extended during strong, gusty, winds, they can be lifted at the open end and wrapped over the van roof with considerable damage to both awning and van roof. They also flap and rattle in relatively light winds, and bang around ominously in stronger winds. They can be tied town at the open end, and the normal recommendation of manufacturers is to insert two (usually supplied) pegs through the bases of their lags whenever they are extended. But, whatever is done in this way, once the wind reaches a certain strength the only safe remedy is to wind them in, either completely (especially at night), or partially until the sail area is sufficiently reduced for the banging and clattering to be negligible.

 

Personally, I have arrived at the solution of attaching two (again usually supplied) locking plates to the side of the van into which the bottoms of the legs are locked, so triangulating the awning supports from point A (their origin at the awning case), out to point B (the ends of awning rafters), down the awning legs to to point C (the side of the van), and back up via the side back to point A. A B C triangle all supported by the van, so that if the van rocks, the awning rocks with it. To this I add an intermediate rafter pole (standard accessory) mid way between the two folding end rafters, which braces the lead rail back to the awning casing, which then prevents the fabric billowing up in wind by flexing the two (articulating) end ratters. As the intermediate rafter pole is in two parts with one part telescopic over roughly 50% of its length this allows the awning to be would in to that extent to reduce its sail area. I have added a couple of adaptations to this intermediate rafter pole that allow just the telescopic end to be installed on its own, so that the awning can still be braced back to the awning case when reduced to 25% of its normal extension. This works well even in even fairly strong winds, but it still has its limits, which, once reached, mean it has to be wound fully back! Why bother? See below - re the large sliding van door and rain. :-)

 

This leads to two further considerations.

 

First, however the awning is tied down or braced, once the wind passes the safe point and the awning has to be wound in, two people are necessary, because the awning cannot physically be wound in while the outer end is attached - whether to the ground or the side of the van! One works the winder, the other hangs on the the free end of the awning to stop the wind sending it skywards! No ifs, no buts! :-D

 

Second, with van conversions, and that large sliding door, the van interior is left very open to whatever is happening outside when the door is open. So if the wind is accompanied by rain (it often seems to be!) the interior gets wet! Pitch the van with the door away from the wind, you say. Well yes, but you then need to know when parking which way the wind will be blowing in however many days time, and whether it will also bring rain. Don't open the van door fully, you say. Well yes, but you then need to pitch the van dead level, or gravity will open it fully for you wherever you stop it, because there is no intermediate stop position - at least there isn't on our van! The problem is that weather changes over time, even over a few hours or days, so whatever seemed appropriate when you arrived, is no longer appropriate later on! It just happens.

 

Despite all of the above I consider the wind out awning the best overall compromise - providing it is used with the legs triangulated back to the side of the van, and is fitted with that intermediate rafter pole! :-D However, if you want guaranteed undisturbed sleep, never leave the wind out extended over-night, unless you have high confidence that the weather is settled and calm, or you have a well sheltered pitch, and even then...................................!! :-D Trying to wind in a rattling, banging, awning at 3am in pyjamas, while not waking the neighbours, is not to be repeated two frequently. I speak from experience! :-D :-D