Considering a motorhome to also regularly work in for a couple

[fripp]

v23509l - 2021-07-12 6:13 PM

 

Well, that sounds like a joke. Come on - we will move to another campsite if we cannot run a small fridge, air con, 2 laptops and monitors in such a small van. What about people with 8+ meter motorhomes if ours can be such a problem?

 

Oven is less important, I think we will come back to this/microwave at a later stage.

 

Btw -where do you buy gas canisters, and can you buy them in any country easily?

I would go with:

 

https://www.outdoorbits.com/gaslow-direct-fill-bottles-c-123_457.html

 

And refill as you go

[v23509l]

Thanks. And normal, pre-supplied gas bottles (I didn't know they are called bottles, it sounds so weird to me :)), are not refillable?

[Keithl]

v23509l - 2021-07-12 7:21 PM

 

Thanks. And normal, pre-supplied gas bottles (I didn't know they are called bottles, it sounds so weird to me :)), are not refillable?

there is some useful info on Calor and other refillable and none refillable cylinders in this recent thread along with links to other info on the subject... https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Calor-light/58258/

 

Keith.

[fripp]

v23509l - 2021-07-12 7:21 PM

 

Thanks. And normal, pre-supplied gas bottles (I didn't know they are called bottles, it sounds so weird to me :)), are not refillable?

 

Not refillable by you and bottles are country specific, so you can't hand in your empties when abroad to get a 'new' one. The self refillable ones can be refilled by you at service stations that support LPG. The cost per litre of self refillable ones is much cheaper than exchange bottles.

[v23509l]

For instance, if the Adria bottle is not-refillable, I can use it up and replace it with a refillable one? That sounds good. Are there any downsides to refillable bottles?

[fripp]

v23509l - 2021-07-12 8:22 PM

 

For instance, if the Adria bottle is not-refillable, I can use it up and replace it with a refillable one? That sounds good. Are there any downsides to refillable bottles?

 

Adria don't make bottles. If you are buying a new van it is unlikely to come with any gas bottles. The refillable bottles come in a range of sizes (essentially which match the exchangeable ones, although some tight spaces might force you to downsize), you need to choose the one/two that fits the cabinet space you have. Refillable have a higher cost to buy in the first place.

[Brian Kirby]

v23509l - 2021-07-12 3:50 PM

Btw. what is it with weight requirements? The legal limit is 3,5t, but I now read that many many people go over this limit. Not by much, but some. What could happen if you're driving with 3,7t? Theoretically, it could be checked, but who is going to bother, seeing 2 people in a relatively small van?

Dirty Harry - "Are you feeling lucky?" So, probably not, but it can happen, and people do get penalised although, depending on where, and by how much overloaded, it can result in a formal reprimand or a fine, and probably being told to unload until within the legal limit. It is then a case of what you can remove to reduce weight, and whether you are prepared to abandon the surplus at the roadside. At 3.7 tonnes the overload would be unlikely to be regarded as small, though 50kg probably would. You may be in a foreign country, and may have difficulty communicating with the official. On the whole, easier and safer to stay legal?

[Brian Kirby]

v23509l - 2021-07-12 6:13 PM

Well, that sounds like a joke. Come on - we will move to another campsite if we cannot run a small fridge, air con, 2 laptops and monitors in such a small van. What about people with 8+ meter motorhomes if ours can be such a problem?

Oven is less important, I think we will come back to this/microwave at a later stage.

Btw -where do you buy gas canisters, and can you buy them in any country easily?

Some sites, predominantly but not limited to, in Germany, meter you supply and charge accordingly. Others merely charge against the power provided in Amps. The lowest I have encountered, in Portugal (not typical of Portugal, just as an example, was 3A. 5A is fairly common, 6A more so, and very few outside the UK will allow in excess of 10A. It isn't the size of the van that counts, just how much power is available vs how much is required.

 

Gas? Cylinder gas is widely available at present in most counties. But, an empty cylinder bought in one country cannot be exchanged for a full one in another country, as the suppliers operate within national borders. It is also frequently the case that the cylinder connection will vary from country to country, unless you stick to Camping Gaz (butane) - the availability of which is distinctly variable.

[v23509l]

Brian Kirby - 2021-07-13 8:35 AM

 

v23509l - 2021-07-12 3:50 PM

Btw. what is it with weight requirements? The legal limit is 3,5t, but I now read that many many people go over this limit. Not by much, but some. What could happen if you're driving with 3,7t? Theoretically, it could be checked, but who is going to bother, seeing 2 people in a relatively small van?

Dirty Harry - "Are you feeling lucky?" So, probably not, but it can happen, and people do get penalised although, depending on where, and by how much overloaded, it can result in a formal reprimand or a fine, and probably being told to unload until within the legal limit. It is then a case of what you can remove to reduce weight, and whether you are prepared to abandon the surplus at the roadside. At 3.7 tonnes the overload would be unlikely to be regarded as small, though 50kg probably would. You may be in a foreign country, and may have difficulty communicating with the official. On the whole, easier and safer to stay legal?

Of course. It was interesting to read, though.

[v23509l]

Brian Kirby - 2021-07-13 8:47 AM

 

v23509l - 2021-07-12 6:13 PM

Well, that sounds like a joke. Come on - we will move to another campsite if we cannot run a small fridge, air con, 2 laptops and monitors in such a small van. What about people with 8+ meter motorhomes if ours can be such a problem?

Oven is less important, I think we will come back to this/microwave at a later stage.

Btw -where do you buy gas canisters, and can you buy them in any country easily?

Some sites, predominantly but not limited to, in Germany, meter you supply and charge accordingly. Others merely charge against the power provided in Amps. The lowest I have encountered, in Portugal (not typical of Portugal, just as an example, was 3A. 5A is fairly common, 6A more so, and very few outside the UK will allow in excess of 10A. It isn't the size of the van that counts, just how much power is available vs how much is required.

 

Gas? Cylinder gas is widely available at present in most counties. But, an empty cylinder bought in one country cannot be exchanged for a full one in another country, as the suppliers operate within national borders. It is also frequently the case that the cylinder connection will vary from country to country, unless you stick to Camping Gaz (butane) - the availability of which is distinctly variable.

Understood. I find it interesting, that the power supplied can be so low, in particular in warm countries where people might need fans or aircon.

[v23509l]

Good, thank you all! What makes most sense now, in my opinion, is to try and rent something, and go to Dusseldorf.

 

For the former, I was thinking to rent something for 6-7 days. I would spend them perhaps almost exclusively in a camping site or two, as it is a new experience for us, with maybe one day outside of camping. That being said, any tips and advice on camping sites and rental web sites? The region would be either SE Belgium, somewhere as far as Liege, or Germany, something west of Frankfurt and south from Bonn. I know it sounds very general, but I lack the experience how people find places when travelling, which apps they use, etc.

[Keithl]

v23509l - 2021-07-13 9:29 AM

 

Good, thank you all! What makes most sense now, in my opinion, is to try and rent something, and go to Dusseldorf.

 

For the former, I was thinking to rent something for 6-7 days. I would spend them perhaps almost exclusively in a camping site or two, as it is a new experience for us, with maybe one day outside of camping. That being said, any tips and advice on camping sites and rental web sites? The region would be either SE Belgium, somewhere as far as Liege, or Germany, something west of Frankfurt and south from Bonn. I know it sounds very general, but I lack the experience how people find places when travelling, which apps they use, etc.

A very good resource for European campsites is Archies Camping http://www.archiescampings.eu/

There are downloads for Sat Nav's as well which is really useful.

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

v23509l - 2021-07-13 9:23 AM..................................

Understood. I find it interesting, that the power supplied can be so low, in particular in warm countries where people might need fans or aircon.

I think it just reflects the country one is in, and the evolution of camping in that country. Most started as sites catering for people with tents, and have evolved. If an area is very popular, especially coastal areas, especially in southern Europe, the demand for spaces is high, so charges can be increased, and the sites are profitable, and installations regularly updated. OTOH, in more remote areas, away from coasts, further north, the dement is lower, and less family dominated. In the less wealthy countries this means the sites are marginally economical to run, so investments such as electric distribution become a major decision for the owners, as does upgrading those installations when they begin to show their age.

 

There is a type of electric plug, blue, with three, weatherproof, shielded, pins, usually identified as the "CEE plug". Any new electric cable will come with one.

 

But, there are still quite a few sites around that do not have connection pillars to suit those plugs, because they haven't upgraded. Most will lend a conversion cable to fit their older pillars, but it is still wise to travel with one in case the site's loan stock is exhausted. The common format is a plug that has two "male" pins for L and N, and a "female" socket for the earth. Others have the two male, but a side located earth connection. So, the best, and most common, conversion cable is a plug that carries the two male pins with both the female and side located earths so both types of earth connection can be made. The other end of the (short) cable will carry a CEE socket for connection to your CEE plug.

 

But, plug patterns vary according the the historic standards established in individual states (not all of which have come from a common, "central European" tradition), so old installations can present some very unfamiliar looking devices, for which a loan conversion cable is the only solution. You never quite know what you will find. It's all part of the fun! :-)

[Brian Kirby]

Keithl - 2021-07-13 9:39 AM

v23509l - 2021-07-13 9:29 AM

Good, thank you all! What makes most sense now, in my opinion, is to try and rent something, and go to Dusseldorf.

For the former, I was thinking to rent something for 6-7 days. I would spend them perhaps almost exclusively in a camping site or two, as it is a new experience for us, with maybe one day outside of camping. That being said, any tips and advice on camping sites and rental web sites? The region would be either SE Belgium, somewhere as far as Liege, or Germany, something west of Frankfurt and south from Bonn. I know it sounds very general, but I lack the experience how people find places when travelling, which apps they use, etc.

A very good resource for European campsites is Archies Camping http://www.archiescampings.eu/

There are downloads for Sat Nav's as well which is really useful.

Keith.

Another good one is this: https://tinyurl.com/2mc65j5k (ACSI Eurocampings).

 

In either case, treat quoted site GPS co-ordinates with caution, especially Archies. Many of the co-ordinates are input by someone sitting on their pitch, which may not give the best guide to the location of the site entrance! A pitch that is closer to a road that does not contain the site entrance can leave the humble sat-nav (and therefore you) totally confused as to where to go! It is a good idea to check the position of the quoted co-ordinates via Google Earth, and then correct to suit the actual site entrance location, before setting out for the site. It just makes life a whole lot easier! :-D

[v23509l]

Keithl - 2021-07-13 9:39 AM

 

v23509l - 2021-07-13 9:29 AM

 

Good, thank you all! What makes most sense now, in my opinion, is to try and rent something, and go to Dusseldorf.

 

For the former, I was thinking to rent something for 6-7 days. I would spend them perhaps almost exclusively in a camping site or two, as it is a new experience for us, with maybe one day outside of camping. That being said, any tips and advice on camping sites and rental web sites? The region would be either SE Belgium, somewhere as far as Liege, or Germany, something west of Frankfurt and south from Bonn. I know it sounds very general, but I lack the experience how people find places when travelling, which apps they use, etc.

A very good resource for European campsites is Archies Camping http://www.archiescampings.eu/

There are downloads for Sat Nav's as well which is really useful.

 

Keith.

Thanks. And general advice on how to organise our week to get to feel as much as possible camper life? We would, of course, be working to simulate the possible future properly.

[Keithl]

v23509l - 2021-07-13 11:45 AM

 

Thanks. And general advice on how to organise our week to get to feel as much as possible camper life? We would, of course, be working to simulate the possible future properly.

A suggestion to work out your computers power requirements. Get a plug in power meter such as the Energenie

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Energenie-429-856UK-Power-Meter/dp/B003ELLGDC

and connect all your equipment through it with a multi-gang extension lead. You may be surprised at how much power you actually need!

And possibly try connecting everything up and 'working' on your front drive before setting off for a campsite.

 

Keith.

[v23509l]

I have decided on the place. It needs to be a camping site on a direct public transportation line to Mainz and/or Wiesbaden, and not more than 30 min away from either. Any experience with that?

[Brian Kirby]

v23509l - 2021-07-13 6:49 PM

I have decided on the place. It needs to be a camping site on a direct public transportation line to Mainz and/or Wiesbaden, and not more than 30 min away from either. Any experience with that?

But, travelling from where?

[v23509l]

From Trier. We don't want to go to far, and we really want to see Mainz and Wiesbaden in more detail, and this seems like a good opportunity.

[curdle]

If in Wiesbaden you need to attend the glorious opera house. Subsidised EU tickets and excellent wine at intermission but white overalled ladies of Krebs type stature and demeanour prevent said drinks from returning to your seat. Anyway, that aside is not my main point.

 

Why not bite the bullet and apply for a C1 licence so all your payload fears evaporate? Honestly you are talking about a positive life changing mode of living and working and yet are constrained on all sides by payload limitations. There are a couple of training schools in the UK that allow the test to be taken in a "heavy van" (twin rear axle but otherwise no different in feel or performance from any other van) rather than a truck. I imagine that might be the case elsewhere in EU. Why hem yourself in at this stage?

[curdle]

And Mainz? Is your interest in progressive local government policy or post-war architecture? In both cases an interest in either or both is assisted with a local contact. Most of the glorious and intriguing art in Mainz lies inside local government buildings. They always apportion a chunk of budget to artworks that are astonishing and inspirational. I so wish this policy was emulated in Britain. Beautiful city centre but some buildings almost a pastiche of their post-war French architectural occupiers. Lovely anyway.

[v23509l]

Ha ha :) Thanks for Mainz/Wiesbaden tips.

 

And on nearby campsites?

 

It's not only about the licence. We both need to be able to drive the thing comfortably, and I don't think it would be comforting for my wife to drive such a large vehicle in the slightest. Besides, I am thinking, 3-5 months could be split in two or three for instance.

[curdle]

The actual reality? Taking a 3500kg vehicle same length on a drive, subsequently upgraded to 4200kg, I guarantee in a blind test you will never be able to discern the difference. You're talking about sneaking a few extra kgs hoping to avoid a weigh bridge. Crazy, just upgrade your licence.

 

In terms of campsites there over a dozen on the Rhine so just google which are available at the time you require. https://www.campingplatz-maaraue.de is the closest between Mainz and Wiesbaden but check reviews for dozens of others. This region is MH heaven.

[Brian Kirby]

curdle - 2021-07-13 9:22 PM

The actual reality? Taking a 3500kg vehicle same length on a drive, subsequently upgraded to 4200kg, I guarantee in a blind test you will never be able to discern the difference. ........................

As earlier, our Knaus is on the Ducato "heavy" chassis. The only differences between this and the standard "light" chassis are under the skin, in terms of spring and damper rates, wheel bearings and brake disc size, larger diameter wheels and so tyres, and lower final drive ratio. It can be plated at up to 4.2 tonnes, but in the case of ours was originally plated at 3.5 tonnes. The plate establishes the legal limit to which it may be loaded, the engineering establishes its safe operating parameters. So, on a like for like basis, from the viewpoint of the driver, it looks exactly the same as a van based on the "light" chassis (except for 16" in lieu of 15" wheels and tyres). But, where you would notice the difference between a van on the light chassis and a van on the heavy chassis, with both having the same bodyshell (wheelbase, height, and length), and both identically loaded to 3.5 tonnes, would be in the superior stability, ride, and handling of the latter. Not really surprising, as the former is being operated much closer to its engineering limits.

 

This is best illustrated by a comment from one of our (now occasional) contributors, Nick Fisher, who ran and largely maintained a hire fleet of Ducatos, and consequently had considerable knowledge of their construction and underlying engineering, who described the general handling of the laden light chassis compared to that of the heavy chassis, as resembling that of a shopping trolley!

 

I don't know the complexities of changing the plated weight limit of a vehicle in Germany, but in UK it is relatively straightforward (within limits). You may notice that as well as a maximum permissible weight, vehicles also have legal weight limits on each of their axles. You may also have noticed that whatever the maximum permissible weight, the sum of the limit on the two axles invariably exceeds this. This excess is to reflect the fact that the vehicles are primarily designed for load carrying, and the weight of the load will not, generally, distribute evenly between the axles, and that it distribution in normal use is unpredictable. So, by plating the overall weight to below the sum of the individual axles, a "fudge factor" is introduced that will generally allow the vehicle to be taken to its maximum weight without overloading either of its axles. This is important because it guards against the danger of overloaded tyres, or tyres that are underinflated for the load they are carrying, either of which in turn lead to overheating of, and eventual catastrophic failure of, the tyres. As stated earlier, the heavy chassis has axle limits of 2,100 kg front, and 2,400kg rear, whereas the "light" chassis limits are 1850kg front and 2,000kg rear, at total difference of 550 kg.

 

Much of the weight of a motorhome, compared to the weight of the van on which it is based, comes from the interior fitting out, which means that motorhomes, even when unladen, are always significantly heavier than the comparable van. However, the fit out load also "fixes" the distribution of its weight between the axles. So, suitably qualified automotive engineering consultants are able to certify the safety of allowing more of that "fudge factor" to be re-allocated back into the maximum permissible plated weight of the van. So, a van on the light chassis which left the factory plated at 3,500kg, can have its maximum permissible weight increased to 3,650kg, or even 3,850kg, as a "desk" exercise by such consultants, and then have the registration document altered accordingly (by DVLA) against their certification.

 

I mention this because, assuming a similar procedure is available in Germany (presumably via Technischer Überwachungsverein - TÜV - or similar), it may make sense to buy a van on the heavy chassis, but plated at 3,500kg (as ours was, supplied by a dealer in Ratzeburg), which is a standard option, and which, should you then find the weights don't work for you at 3,500kg, has comfortable scope to increase its plated weight to give you the extra you need - without having to change the vehicle. All you would then need is to upgrade your driving licences, in your own time, and once suitably licenced, have the van upgrade carried out. New licences, same van, only legally heavier! :-) I doubt you would be able to up-plate by the full 550kg (bringing it to 4,500kg), as retention of some of that "fudge factor" would still be desirable, but it should be reasonably possible to upgrade to the standard 4,005kg, or even the heavier 4,250kg (4.2T nominal), weights at which Fiat themselves supply vans on the "heavy" chassis.

[laimeduck]

My 7.3 metre Benimar was uprated from 3500 to 3850 by the previous owner to increase his payload because he had a motorbike and pushbikes in the garage. If you are going to live in your motorhome then you will need all the space and payload you can get. I would also say that a fixed bed is a must- you don't want to be moving cushions around to make a bed every night. There are two of us in our Benimar with a fixed bed above the garage. We are constantly getting in each others way. How on earth 4 could live in it I have no idea!

 

I agree with Brian - Start with a van you can uprate, if you can't get all that you need in the van, you could always consider fixing a towbar and buying a trailer to help payload.

 

Jeremy