Leisure battery problem again

[Makingtrax]

In 2019 our 2016 Knaus had a problem with the Banner Running Bull AGM battery overheating badly on hook up. I immediately replaced it with Varta Professional Dual Purpose LFD90 which has been on exactly 2 years. Now we have exactly the same problem. Noticed a drip under the van on hook up and a slight smell of hydrogen sulphide. The battery is mega hot and only showing 12.1volts on my multimeter. Because of COVID we’ve had perhaps 4 short trips over the last couple of years. The van has been mostly winterised, just moving the wheels every couple of weeks and putting the van on hook up periodically to keep the battery charged. Wondering if the charger is faulty and not switching phases. Any ideas what I can do to see what the cause is?

[EJB]

Check the voltages throughout the charging cycle...this will prove the battery or the charger.

[Makingtrax]

Think this battery is finished. Now it’s cooled the voltage is 10 volts. I’ve checked the charger and voltage is 14.4 volts, so I don’t think it’s over charging. I’ve ordered a new battery. When it comes I’ll check the charging phases. Not sure how a battery can be ruined in so short a time when the vans not been used that much, can only suspect the charger.

[EJB]

Do as you say and over 24/48 hours an answer could appear?

[spirou]

Since you weren't driving much, how was the battery maintained over the past year? Plugged in (or solar) constantly? Charged once a month or less? Any tiny drains?

[Ocsid]

Makingtrax - 2021-08-13 4:03 PM

 

Think this battery is finished. Now it’s cooled the voltage is 10 volts. I’ve checked the charger and voltage is 14.4 volts, so I don’t think it’s over charging. I’ve ordered a new battery. When it comes I’ll check the charging phases. Not sure how a battery can be ruined in so short a time when the vans not been used that much, can only suspect the charger.

 

The 10 Volts ties in nicely with that battery being now a 5 cell rather than its original 6 cell unit.

 

A very common failing, of one cell shorting out internally, and then with the chargers 14.4 volts now shared by 5 rather than 6 cell each "good" cell totally being overcharged. The shorting typically caused by paste dropping out and ultimately shorting out the bottom of the plates in that cell.

 

Physical bumping about, and or overly fast charging here can be issues; both brands being discussed are of good quality so poor build as a cause is most improbable.

 

If I am on the right track here the battery is shot and best replaced before it takes out the charger.

[keninpalamos]

Two batteries wrecked, Over charging. Built in charger, solar regulator or possible alternator regulator. Varta LDF 90 excellent unit but not as good as Yuasa L36 EFB

[Derek Uzzell]

Your last sentence - how do you know that?

[Keithl]

keninpalamos - 2021-08-14 10:58 AM

 

Two batteries wrecked, Over charging. Built in charger, solar regulator or possible alternator regulator. Varta LDF 90 excellent unit but not as good as Yuasa L36 EFB

Derek Uzzell - 2021-08-14 11:34 AM

 

Your last sentence - how do you know that?

I'm curios as well as I have just replaced my TEN year old LFD90 with another identical battery?

 

Keith.

[ageingandrew]

Makingtrax - 2021-08-13 11:40 AM

 

In 2019 our 2016 Knaus had a problem with the Banner Running Bull AGM battery overheating badly on hook up. I immediately replaced it with Varta Professional Dual Purpose LFD90 which has been on exactly 2 years. Now we have exactly the same problem.

Crikey. I'd check the battery chargers. Having 2 batteries cooked in less than 3 years sounds to me like the charging regime is not right. I doubt poor build quality of the batteries is the problem as they are both from good manufacturers and the chance of buying 2 faulty batteries one after the other must surely be remote.

 

Andrew

[keninpalamos]

I took the information from this piece by Allen before he passed away and it stuck in my mind. I’m sure you have read it at some point Derek and just forgotten about it perhaps. Just to add I have used the Varta battery for many years and have two in my Montana, one as a leisure and one as a starter battery. I was using Trojan traction batteries in my larger touring Motorhome for 15 years which are a bit OTT and now have the Yuasa installed.

http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

[Makingtrax]

Think you’re right. I’ve put the new battery in today. Reading was 12.7 volts. Turned on the charger (with 5 phases) on hook up. First reading was 13.9v with flashing amber light (Phase 1). One hour later 14.2V with amber light on constant (Phase 3). After two hours still on phase 3 at 14.3v.

 

Not really sure how long it should take to go to Phase 4 and 5. But I’ll keep my eye on it.

[Makingtrax]

Had it on hook up for a couple of days a week with the battery in situ with everything switched off over the winter. There’s no solar panel. It does drain but probably due to the alarm etc. 2 batteries in 5 years seems like something’s wrong.

[Makingtrax]

After 3 hours the charger is flashing green, phase 5, 13.8 V. To me the charger looks fine. Which means there must be another cause of the batteries having such a short life.

[Keithl]

Makingtrax - 2021-08-16 6:48 PM

 

Had it on hook up for a couple of days a week with the battery in situ with everything switched off over the winter.

I think that may be your problem. Every time the charger is turned on it will go through it's cycle of charging voltages/currents and will possibly be over-charging the battery. I only charge my MH's batteries maybe once a month and then only when the voltage is starting to fall.

 

Keith.

 

PS And Ken, I had read Allan's article some time in the past but forgotten about it the other day when I ordered a new Varta LFD90. However in my defence the Yuasa is 30% more expensive than the Varta (£110 v £84 at Tayna) and I personally do not see the benefits as worth the extra money. Even now having re-read Allan's article I would still buy the Varta.

[Derek Uzzell]

Allan Evans used to suggest 3 possibilities for motorhome replacement ‘conventional’ lead-acid batteries. These were the Varta LFD90, the Yuasa L36-EFB (aka Halfords HLB700) and the Exide ET650.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/semi-traction/51050/

 

The prices Allan quoted in the 2019 O&AL forum thread may no longer apply, but (as Keith has said) a Varta LFD90 should still be significantly the least expensive. (It’s the primary reason I chose a LFD90 to replace my Rapido’s original Banner ”Energy Bull” leisure battery rather than a Yuasa/Halfords or Exide alternative.)

 

Varta’s LFD range is evidently on the the way out. This was mentioned here last month

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Loss-of-habitation-power-are-my-batteries-dead-/58480/

 

Steve’s Knaus was originally fitted with a Banner AGM battery that overheated. The Banner battery was replaced with a Varta LFD90 that is ‘conventional’ wet-acid type. It would be worth Steve confirming what charging regimen the Knaus’s battery-charger is set to, as - if the regimen had been manually matched to the AGM battery - it should have been altered to ‘wet acid’ when the Varta battery was installed.

[Makingtrax]

Keithl - 2021-08-16 8:57 PM

 

Makingtrax - 2021-08-16 6:48 PM

 

Had it on hook up for a couple of days a week with the battery in situ with everything switched off over the winter.

I think that may be your problem. Every time the charger is turned on it will go through it's cycle of charging voltages/currents and will possibly be over-charging the battery. I only charge my MH's batteries maybe once a month and then only when the voltage is starting to fall.

 

Keith.

I was thinking a few hours to get to phase 5 and the rest of the 2 days it would be on trickle charge. Maybe I should leave it on hook up continuously.

[Makingtrax]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-08-17 7:57 AM

 

Allan Evans used to suggest 3 possibilities for motorhome replacement ‘conventional’ lead-acid batteries. These were the Varta LFD90, the Yuasa L36-EFB (aka Halfords HLB700) and the Exide ET650.

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/semi-traction/51050/

 

The prices Allan quoted in the 2019 O&AL forum thread may no longer apply, but (as Keith has said) a Varta LFD90 should still be significantly the least expensive. (It’s the primary reason I chose a LFD90 to replace my Rapido’s original Banner ”Energy Bull” leisure battery rather than a Yuasa/Halfords or Exide alternative.)

 

Varta’s LFD range is evidently on the the way out. This was mentioned here last month

 

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Loss-of-habitation-power-are-my-batteries-dead-/58480/

 

Steve’s Knaus was originally fitted with a Banner AGM battery that overheated. The Banner battery was replaced with a Varta LFD90 that is ‘conventional’ wet-acid type. It would be worth Steve confirming what charging regimen the Knaus’s battery-charger is set to, as - if the regimen had been manually matched to the AGM battery - it should have been altered to ‘wet acid’ when the Varta battery was installed.

I haven't changed the dip switches on the charger since the Running Bull was intsalled, I'll look into that.

[Keithl]

Makingtrax - 2021-08-17 8:29 AM

 

Keithl - 2021-08-16 8:57 PM

 

Makingtrax - 2021-08-16 6:48 PM

 

Had it on hook up for a couple of days a week with the battery in situ with everything switched off over the winter.

I think that may be your problem. Every time the charger is turned on it will go through it's cycle of charging voltages/currents...

I was thinking a few hours to get to phase 5 and the rest of the 2 days it would be on trickle charge. Maybe I should leave it on hook up continuously.

What make/model of charger are you using and is it a 'true' smart charger designed to be left connected indefinitely? eg CTEK chargers state "Our chargers don´t need any specialist knowledge and they can be safely left connected for long periods of time – even months – as they keep your battery maintained."

 

I think the frequency of charging, ie every week, is the issue rather than the duration. As I said above I only charge once a month at the most often.

 

Keith.

[Makingtrax]

Keithl - 2021-08-17 9:14 AM

 

Makingtrax - 2021-08-17 8:29 AM

 

Keithl - 2021-08-16 8:57 PM

 

Makingtrax - 2021-08-16 6:48 PM

 

Had it on hook up for a couple of days a week with the battery in situ with everything switched off over the winter.

I think that may be your problem. Every time the charger is turned on it will go through it's cycle of charging voltages/currents...

I was thinking a few hours to get to phase 5 and the rest of the 2 days it would be on trickle charge. Maybe I should leave it on hook up continuously.

What make/model of charger are you using and is it a 'true' smart charger designed to be left connected indefinitely? eg CTEK chargers state "Our chargers don´t need any specialist knowledge and they can be safely left connected for long periods of time – even months – as they keep your battery maintained."

 

I think the frequency of charging, ie every week, is the issue rather than the duration. As I said above I only charge once a month at the most often.

 

Keith.

Thanks. It’s a Waeco, Dometic Gp charger, with 5 phases. I assumed the final phase was just a trickle charge. After 12 days of phase 5 it switches back to phase 1 for 85 mins. The switch over voltage is 14.4v and the retention voltage is 13.8v. I can switch the retention voltage to 13.5 with a dip switch.

[Ocsid]

Is it something to do with having a phase one desulphation phase?

 

An issue could possibly be the intermittent use of the charger, results in each powering up occasion involving desulphation? Basically, it's not been used as intended, left on continuously?

 

Whereas if used on power continuously [possibly as designed] it only cycles to that desulphation phase typcially every 28 days.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I leave my Schaudt charger on the gel battery, plugged into the house EHU, year in year out, if not actually away using the van.

Plus, for quite a different application, I leave a wet leisure battery on a CTEK 24 x 365 hours.

In both cases I get over 10 years of good performance from these batteries.

 

I am not convinced intermittent use of smart chargers specifically designed to offer continuous use, is actually a sound use of them.

[Makingtrax]

Ocsid - 2021-08-17 11:04 AM

 

Is it something to do with having a phase one desulphation phase?

 

An issue could possibly be the intermittent use of the charger, results in each powering up occasion involving desulphation? Basically, it's not been used as intended, left on continuously?

 

Whereas if used on power continuously [possibly as designed] it only cycles to that desulphation phase typcially every 28 days.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I leave my Schaudt charger on the gel battery, plugged into the house EHU, year in year out, if not actually away using the van.

Plus, for quite a different application, I leave a wet leisure battery on a CTEK 24 x 365 hours.

In both cases I get over 10 years of good performance from these batteries.

 

I am not convinced intermittent use of smart chargers specifically designed to offer continuous use, is actually a sound use of them.

Maybe you’re right. I’m doing something wrong. The charger is also making sure the starter battery is charged and I’ve never had a problem with that.

[Derek Uzzell]

Makingtrax - 2021-08-17 9:26 AM

 

Thanks. It’s a Waeco, Dometic Gp charger, with 5 phases...

Could you say, please, EXACTLY which model of Dometic battery charger your Knaus has (eg. Dometic Perfectcharge MCA 1225)

 

Some motorcaravanners favour their out-of-use motorhomes being on 230V hook-up continuously, some use a timer, some charge when the battery's voltage has dropped to a certain level, some take an as-and-when approach.

 

I don't believe your once-a-week approach should result in any problems (though you should definitely ensure that the charger's charging regime is correctly matched to the battery type). I'd have no hesitation doing what you've been doing.

 

You'll have to replace the leisure-battery and if there's any suspicion that the Dometic charger might be the battery assassin, you'd be wise to replace the charger too. The trouble is that, if the charger tests out OK but once in a while spontaneously goes into 'supercharge', this problem will happen again.

[Makingtrax]

Ocsid - 2021-08-17 11:04 AM

 

Is it something to do with having a phase one desulphation phase?

 

An issue could possibly be the intermittent use of the charger, results in each powering up occasion involving desulphation? Basically, it's not been used as intended, left on continuously?

 

Whereas if used on power continuously [possibly as designed] it only cycles to that desulphation phase typcially every 28 days.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I leave my Schaudt charger on the gel battery, plugged into the house EHU, year in year out, if not actually away using the van.

Plus, for quite a different application, I leave a wet leisure battery on a CTEK 24 x 365 hours.

In both cases I get over 10 years of good performance from these batteries.

 

I am not convinced intermittent use of smart chargers specifically designed to offer continuous use, is actually a sound use of them.

Been reading up on internet and really the best advice seems to be to remove both the leisure and starter batteries when not in use for long periods and buy a dedicated trickle charger like CTEK rather than the motorhome charger. But the van is alarmed with Vanbitz Strikeback which is required to be on by the insurance company. Mind you it would be hard to take with batteries in. 8-)

[Makingtrax]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-08-17 1:56 PM

 

Makingtrax - 2021-08-17 9:26 AM

 

Thanks. It’s a Waeco, Dometic Gp charger, with 5 phases...

Could you say, please, EXACTLY which model of Dometic battery charger your Knaus has (eg. Dometic Perfectcharge MCA 1225)

 

Some motorcaravanners favour their out-of-use motorhomes being on 230V hook-up continuously, some use a timer, some charge when the battery's voltage has dropped to a certain level, some take an as-and-when approach.

 

I don't believe your once-a-week approach should result in any problems (though you should definitely ensure that the charger's charging regime is correctly matched to the battery type). I'd have no hesitation doing what you've been doing.

 

You'll have to replace the leisure-battery and if there's any suspicion that the Dometic charger might be the battery assassin, you'd be wise to replace the charger too. The trouble is that, if the charger tests out OK but once in a while spontaneously goes into 'supercharge', this problem will happen again.

Thanks. Yes, that’s the charger. I’m beginning to wonder now if something’s draining it. I’m going to keep a closer eye on it. I always keep the hab electrics switched off inside the cab, but the alarm is probably still wired to it. A timer sounds a good idea. How often do you think the timer should operate the charger?