Hymer Warranty - not happy!!

[Derek Uzzell]

Hans - 2021-12-08 12:41 PM

 

... IS CRA 2015 still in force? ...

 

This webpage refers

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9126/

 

and this quote is relevant to your question

 

"An obvious consequence of Brexit is that the UK no longer has any significant influence over the future direction of consumer protection law in the EU and vice versa. In the short term, it is thought unlikely that the Government will make material changes to UK consumer protection law. The Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA 2015) only came into force comparatively recently, alongside key changes to the UK’s regime of consumer bodies, making further wholesale reform improbable.

 

There are 10 references to "CRA 2015" in the Briefing Paper

 

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9126/CBP-9126.pdf

 

but I dread to think what the result would be if you used translation software on it.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Paul F - 2021-12-08 2:00 PM

A formal complaint is now lodged with the dealer and I am at least getting meaningful communication - although no full resolution yet.

I am wholly relying on CRA 2015, but out of interest I contacted Hymer to see what they would say.

My message on the hymer.com website was dealt with very efficiently within one working day. They double checked the VIN number and confirmed that no warranty claim has been received by them for my vehicle - despite the dealer telling me for 7 weeks that Hymer are ignoring the claim!!

Further evidence that the problem here is very much the dealer.

Apologies if this seems a bit obvious, Paul, but make sure to keep copies of your exchange with Hymer! As you now have the dealer's attention, I wonder if it might help them to help you if you were to inform them of your exchange with Hymer, and of Hymer's reply confirming that no no claim had been received from the dealer. I suspect Hymer (and any legal hearing that is initiated) will take a dim view of the dealer's misrepresentation of their responses, so that knowledge just might apply sufficient voltage to the right part of someone's anatomy! Sounds like a little progress - but what a bunch of twits to push it to this point!

[Hans]

Paul the uk is a big market for Hymer. like Burstner. But after the sale it is up their dealers contractual ones to deal whit. The vin number is crucial during their life time. By the way if you drill a hole in it . Then it should be on paper whit Vin. Like a Awning.All the best to claim your windsreen damage. Hans agility dog advisor vans - motorhomes,

[Hans]

That Bunch of twits came to The conclusion That the Insurance of he motorhome damage has to pay , if any. The other i do not believe in.

[Paul F]

Useful advice Brian, but rest assured, the email from Hymer was forwarded to their own dealer within 10 minutes of landing in my inbox!!

 

I am very keen to see the formal response and the tone it adopts over the next few days,

[Surreyboy]

Brian Kirby - 2021-12-05 5:23 PM

 

The dealers concerned, who had made no profit on the sale of the vans, were Southdowns of Portsmouth (Hobby and Kanus - though no longer in both cases), and Premier Motorhomes (Hymer) of Birdham, nr. Chichester. Both were were constructive and pro-active in dealing with all issues. So take heart - there are good UK dealers who provide good service! :-)

 

I've purchased from both those dealers multiple times and I had similar positive experiences. Those that stand out should be recognised.

[Hans]

What said your insurance of the MH?. About this.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Hans, this is not an insurance matter.

 

All the items that have failed on Paul's (new in November 2020, so now only 13 months old) van, failed, and were notified to the dealer, before October 2021 - so within 12 months from purchase. All the failed items were supplied and fitted by Hymer, as parts of various options packs. The dealer has been refusing to submit a warranty claim to Hymer on Paul's behalf, or to rectify the defects himself. Insurance doesn't come into it, these are all defects in a new motorhome, not items that have been damaged in use.

 

The windscreen damage arose because when Paul first drove the van in rain the windscreen wiper blades partially disintegrated, bringing the metal blade carrier into contact with the windscreen, and scratching it. That damage was due to faulty windscreen wipers supplied by Hymer.

 

I think you need to read back to Paul's first post (3 December 2021 5:32 PM) to get the full story.

[Hans]

Hopefully well proved by photos taken. I still stands For the insurance way of glass damage. The Dealer is unable to replace the Screen. So What Then? Hopefully Paul had a new one before Christmas.

[Brian Kirby]

Hans - 2021-12-13 2:17 PM

Hopefully well proved by photos taken. I still stands For the insurance way of glass damage. The Dealer is unable to replace the Screen. So What Then? Hopefully Paul had a new one before Christmas.

So what happens then, Hans, is that the dealer engages the services of a windscreen specialist, and seeks to recover his costs from Hymer.

[Hans]

In A - Class The front screen has two layers whit a folia in between glued together. Called safety glass. And most heated by a cable. Normally your CASCO insurance will pay. Even windscreen specialist from Germany will came over To the UK for repair of Motorhomes. They live from it.

[Derek Uzzell]

This link is to a long 2018 MHFun forum thread that discussed replacement of damaged windscreens of Hymer A-class motorhomes

 

https://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/forum/threads/hymer-a-class-windscreen-replacement-by-autoglass.186981/

 

If Paul chose to have his UK insurer pay for replacement of his Hymer's scratched windscreen, even if Paul's insurance policy had no financial maximum figure for that task, it's probable that there would be an 'excess' (a £75 charge is commonly imposed) that Paul would need to pay. And - as Paul fears - his insurance renewal premium might well increase as a consequence.

 

As the blame for the scratched windscreen lies with Hymer for building the motorhome with defective wipers, Paul should not need to involve his insurer and should not need to contribute any payment towards the windscreen being repaired or replaced.

[Paul F]

A further update for those that may be interested, and an opportunity for me to vent my ongoing frustration somewhere!!!

 

So the formal complaint is now being dealt with by the dealers 'After Sales Director' who has written back to me explaining how long winded the Hymer warranty process is at the moment largely 'because of Covid'. He fails to even acknowledge my confirmation from Hymer that a warranty claim hasnt even been submitted, and also fails to respond to my specific request that his company adheres to its responsibilities under the CRA 2015.

 

He has finally accepted responsibility for one issue out of four, and ordered a replacement TV lifter mechanism - who knows if this is via the warranty or not, and I don't really care, as long as I get a new one. He also said that he needs to understand why the wipers failed before he can comment further and has asked the factory for advice. What is there to understand ???? - the wipers were fitted poorly, or they are defective. From my perspective it doesnt matter, they have caused damage and I want the damage rectified.

 

I wrote yet again pointing out the above, and also asked what is happening with the other two electrical issues that havent even been acknowledged after the workshop visit in October.

 

The response to all of this extensive communication? - you are going to love this two part request !

 

Part One - The dealer is now asking that I take better pictures of the outside of the glass, as when they had the van for a week they only took pictures internally. Have you ever tried to take a picture of a piece of scratched glass - it is nigh on impossible. By design, the camera focuses on what it can see through the glass, not the glass itself!

 

Part Two - the dealer asks that I return the defective wiper arm to them (not the blade, the arm!), as they want to take a closer look. They are happy to remove it themselves if I drive 2 hours to the dealership - and presumably come back hoping it will not rain!

 

I am actually in shock at this request, and am forcing myself to laugh so that my blood pressure does not go through the roof!

 

We are not talking about a small organisation here - this was a £50m+ dealership before the pandemic, and this director has many years experience in the MH world.

 

Maybe I should just book the van in somewhere else, get the work done, and issue court proceedings to get my money back.

 

I said it earlier in the thread, but I will say it again - IT SHOULD NOT BE LIKE THIS.

 

I have held back from naming and shaming the dealership, but if this does not conclude the way it should, with a resolution that is fair, then I will do my utmost to publicise the facts on every social media outlet and review channel I can find. I will also write to all the leading MH orientated publications as potential customers need to be warned. I will at least draw some satisfaction from doing that!

 

Do dealers read this forum I am wondering - if this one does, and they will know who they are if they read it - then they should be ashamed of themselves.

 

Fed up and I have had enough!

[Keithl]

Paul F - 2021-1

 

I have held back from naming and shaming the dealership, but if this does not conclude the way it should, with a resolution that is fair, then I will do my utmost to publicise the facts on every social media outlet and review channel I can find.

Paul,

 

Please do not name the dealer on this forum as it is against Warners T&C and will almost certainly lead to either moderation or removal of the entire thread.

 

I feel for your frustration but naming them on here can leave Warners open to legal action as they are responsible for anything posted within their control.

 

Keith.

[Paul F]

Understood Keith. I will keep the name to myself and just pass it to my solicitors!!

[crocs]

Keithl - 2021-12-14 5:40 PM

 

Paul F - 2021-1

 

I have held back from naming and shaming the dealership, but if this does not conclude the way it should, with a resolution that is fair, then I will do my utmost to publicise the facts on every social media outlet and review channel I can find.

Paul,

 

Please do not name the dealer on this forum as it is against Warners T&C and will almost certainly lead to either moderation or removal of the entire thread.

 

I feel for your frustration but naming them on here can leave Warners open to legal action as they are responsible for anything posted within their control.

 

Keith.

 

Interesting advice.

 

I would advise not naming dealership at the moment but for the reason that it could be counter productive in reaching a solution.

 

I’d be interested to know what specific term or condition naming would breach, unless you rely on 15.4.1 which would be a very blunt instrument. As long as the thread is limited to facts, there should be no danger and, to do otherwise, could be considered a restriction of free speech. After all, one of the benefits of this forum is to spread information on people’s experiences. To allow good news but not bad would rather skew it’s usefulness.

[Ocsid]

Paul F - 2021-12-14 5:34 PM

 

and also fails to respond to my specific request that his company adheres to its responsibilities under the CRA 2015.

 

 

Discuss with your solicitor for precise confirmation, but advice I received left me believing dealers deliberately failing to recognise their obligations under, and in anyway trying to mislead you about the CRA 2015, moves things very significantly from a "civil" issue into a "criminal" issue.

I took this as having a kernel of truth, so is well worth getting clued up on, as they could well see things moving into more serious territory, if that is the case, requires positive constructive action.

[Brian Kirby]

Paul F - 2021-12-14 5:47 PM

..........................I will keep the name to myself and just pass it to my solicitors!!

From what you have said, I think that is the best response. Were you to begin conducting a public campaign against the dealership, apart from the Warners issue, it could work against your interests if the matter gets to court - as the dealer could then present you as an aggressive and vexatious individual acting with malicious intent to damage the company - or similar. You must act reasonably, however difficult, and however unreasonable the dealership's responses. It's that old adage - "two wrongs don't make a right"!

 

I think that the dealer's responses leave you little choice other than to pursue your rights under the Consumer Rights Act and forget the warranty. But, as ever, if you have appointed a solicitor, take his advice while ensuring that he has access to all relevant documents (letters, e-mails, etc, plus any notes you have of meetings with the dealer, with whom, when, and what was said, even if those ewer not confirmed to the dealer). However, I can see two pitfalls with this. First, if you proceed against the supplying dealer, the repair will be carried out under legal duress, which is not the best guaranty for customer service or quality of workmanship! Second, to have the repairs carried out by anyone else, I'm pretty sure it will have to be by an alternative Hymer dealer, or the work/equipment will not be warranted by Hymer - but please check your warranty documents on this.

 

From memory (so treat accordingly! :-)) under the Act you are entitled to claim all your costs from the dealer, including your legal costs, travel costs and expenses, and can also declare that you have now lost all confidence in them as the means to rectify the defects, at which point you are entitled to place the repairs in the hands of a different dealer and sue to recover your costs. Your solicitor will be able to advise the best way forward.

 

Just one last thought. Have you considered side-stepping the legal process and trying a different Hymer dealership, asking if they would be prepared to pursue the warranty issues with Hymer on your behalf? It is an expensive van, so they may take on the task, perhaps on the understanding that you would smile favourably on them should they do so. :-)

 

However, I think it might be wise not to name the supplying dealer initially, or to reveal the registration number, or Hymer build number, of your van, before they indicate whether or not they would do this. (I'm pretty sure the dealers can all access Hymer's vehicle database, which would almost certainly reveal that information.) Perhaps a personal visit by car, possibly following a 'phone call to arrange to meet the relevant director? But, if that were possible, it would get your van repaired with minimal added stress, and probably quicker, and cheaper, than the legal route. Apologies if all the above are obvious and you've already considered/discussed them.

[kevina]

Try holding a sheet of black card against the inside of the screen for the photos of the scratch.

[Hans]

The attack angle was wrong. from the beginning. As i said before many times.. Only about The wiper blade. Yes you can not take a good foto in a windscreen whit a flash..Proven before on two windscreens replaced before on my campers. it is from my point of view Ridiculous to say that hymer has put on Wrong wipers L or R Or one Only? Yes The Arm is proof in some way. not the rubber See my former post. So the best way as i did Carglass. Near by And now problems. Clean your window before drive and check your rubber wipers. Maybe their is a bone in between.

[Paul F]

Hans - 2021-12-14 8:17 PM

 

The attack angle was wrong. from the beginning. As i said before many times.. Only about The wiper blade. Yes you can not take a good foto in a windscreen whit a flash..Proven before on two windscreens replaced before on my campers. it is from my point of view Ridiculous to say that hymer has put on Wrong wipers L or R Or one Only? Yes The Arm is proof in some way. not the rubber See my former post. So the best way as i did Carglass. Near by And now problems. Clean your window before drive and check your rubber wipers. Maybe their is a bone in between.

 

I am sorry Hans but I have to completely disagree with you. In 36 years of driving, and in 25 years of managing a commercial fleet of up to 80 vehicles, I have never, ever, ever, ever experienced a bone caught between my wiper blade and my windscreen - neither do I know anybody else that has!! The brand new motorhome sat on my driveway being cleaned and polished for virtually 5 months during lockdown, and was then driven in the rain, wipers switched on and the scratch appears before my eyes with the rubber hanging out of the blade. No bones in the vicinity.

 

The reason for the damage is obvious to anybody looking at it. I practically watched it happen. Yes, I could claim on my insurance, yes I could pay to have it repaired. This is a point of principle now as much as anything else, and the dealer should meet his legal obligations, not shy away from them making feeble excuses and showing little or no after sales care whatsoever.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

crocs - 2021-12-14 6:32 PM

 

I’d be interested to know what specific term or condition naming would breach, unless you rely on 15.4.1 which would be a very blunt instrument. As long as the thread is limited to facts, there should be no danger and, to do otherwise, could be considered a restriction of free speech. After all, one of the benefits of this forum is to spread information on people’s experiences. To allow good news but not bad would rather skew it’s usefulness.

 

This link is to earlier Out&AboutLive threads where 'naming and shaming' was discussed.

 

https://tinyurl.com/4t2d2uu4

 

This website has a "Warners Group Publications plc Terms of Website Use" statement that can be interpreted as banning 'naming and shaming'. There used to be concern that the practice (factual or not) might have legal consequences for Warners, but there's little doubt that (say), if a motorhome dealership that advertised in Warners magazines were slagged off (justifiably or otherwise) in the forums, it would not go down well with the dealership's owners and the advertising revenue might be lost to Warners.

 

The O&AL forums are free to join and participate in, but they are owned by Warners and not the participants. When naming and shaming has occurred in the past forum threads have been removed in their entirety, and the forum moderators are given to understand that Warners will support that action.

[Hans]

Paul your Ammunition TO fire back is good picture. Of the damage and how deep it is. And have expertise if it save to drive. I understand your frustration. We are all together here as friends to bring them together and explore their experiences. in the RV world.. To help You. As Much as we can. OAL.Put your dealer under pressure whatever. Avoid to run in a long winding Road. If you are satisfied whit your dealer tell it to others. If not tell it to them.

[crocs]

Derek Uzzell - 2021-12-15 7:44 AM

 

crocs - 2021-12-14 6:32 PM

 

I’d be interested to know what specific term or condition naming would breach, unless you rely on 15.4.1 which would be a very blunt instrument. As long as the thread is limited to facts, there should be no danger and, to do otherwise, could be considered a restriction of free speech. After all, one of the benefits of this forum is to spread information on people’s experiences. To allow good news but not bad would rather skew it’s usefulness.

 

This link is to earlier Out&AboutLive threads where 'naming and shaming' was discussed.

 

https://tinyurl.com/4t2d2uu4

 

This website has a "Warners Group Publications plc Terms of Website Use" statement that can be interpreted as banning 'naming and shaming'. There used to be concern that the practice (factual or not) might have legal consequences for Warners, but there's little doubt that (say), if a motorhome dealership that advertised in Warners magazines were slagged off (justifiably or otherwise) in the forums, it would not go down well with the dealership's owners and the advertising revenue might be lost to Warners.

 

The O&AL forums are free to join and participate in, but they are owned by Warners and not the participants. When naming and shaming has occurred in the past forum threads have been removed in their entirety, and the forum moderators are given to understand that Warners will support that action.

 

I get all that, Derek, I really do. But there are an awful lot of ‘mights’ in there. The economic argument is disappointing as it tends to apply also to MH reviews, leaving some to doubt their objectivity. But that’s another argument.

 

What I was looking for is the Ts&Cs clause that is being relied upon to make these censorship suggestions.

[Derek Uzzell]

The Warners terms of website acceptable use can be read here

 

http://www.warnersgroup.co.uk/about-warners-group/terms-conditions/

 

These terms have been virtually unchanged since the O&AL forums were born in 2006.

 

Over the years I've argued with the Management that the Terms won't be read by O&AL participants and that the Terms' wording is far too 'legal'. I've suggested that simpler, more comprehensible, Terms that are readily visible to O&AL forum participants should be provided if these forums are to be properly moderated.

 

The Practical Caravan (PC) forums are the nearest thing to the O&AL forums conceptually (ie. they relate to commercial leisure magazines and are free to join and use). Their 'Official Community Rules" can be viewed here

 

https://forums.practicalcaravan.com/threads/practical-caravan-official-community-rules.61826/

 

and the 3rd 'rule' relates to naming/shaming.

 

I'm not going to claim that the PC Rules are perfect, but I believe they are a good deal better that the Warners Terms. (It will be noticed that PC moderators have much sharper teeth than O&AL moderators, which may or may not be a good thing!!)

 

There is a 'secret' O&AL forum named "Admin Quarantine" that is only visible to moderators/administrators. This currently contains about 700 threads that have been moved there for various reasons (spamming, blatant advertising, naming/shaming, abusive forum in-fighting, etc.) The Admin Quarantine forum is a Limbo where a thread can be put by a forum moderator awaiting a final decision from a forum administrator as to whether the thread might be moved back to the forum it came from (which rarely happens). For what it's worth, the most recent thread in Admin Quarantine was a 2019 discussion about lost motorhome keys that was resurrected a couple of months ago for advertising purposes. (Now I've noticed it, I'll edit that thread and return it to Motorhome Matters.)

 

What this really comes down to is whether the O&AL forum administrators (who are Warners staff members) are prepared to trust the volunteer moderators (I believe there are 4 forum members with moderator privileges, but I think only Keithl and I actually moderate) with wide-ranging powers that include personal interpretation of the Warners Terms, or for the administrators to do all the forum moderation themselves.

 

Keith advised Paul earlier

 

"Please do not name the dealer on this forum as it is against Warners T&C and will almost certainly lead to either moderation or removal of the entire thread."

 

and I would have advised similarly.

 

You might believe that Keith and my interpretation of the O&AL Terms regarding naming/shaming is incorrect, and that would be fine by me - but we are having to do the interpretation. You could ask Daniel Attwood to give you moderator powers (the more moderators, the merrier!) and then you could put your case about naming/shaming to the Warners staff.