Winter trip through France to Spain ...... the result

[laimeduck]

Just a brief report on our 7 week trip down through France and round Spain from January 9th to February 15th.
You may recall that we had not done a winter trip before, and I was concerned over heating our old Benimar as we are not set up for winter. Thus we decided on the hopefully warmer Med coast route but needed EHU through France. Plus we were not able to transit Rouen due to the new LEZ.
I will describe only the salient bits.

We used a route on D roads to bypass Rouen. Come off the A28 at J12, then D98, D15, D85 to Martainville-Epreville. Then D13, D53 to Bourg-Beaudouin, then D6014 to Fleury-sur-Andelle, then D1 to Les Andelys. Then D313and D316 across to the N154 at Normanville. It worked OK, a bit slow in places, but I reckon it was about 20-25 minutes longer than the old transit route for Rouen. It rained the whole day and was cold. 

We had found an ACSI site at Sully-sur-Loire with the required EHU. From Sully we tracked down the Loire -Sancerre, Nevers, Moulins, to Clermont Ferrand, then down the A75, to another ACSI site at Le Bosc, near Clermont -l'Herault. Once again iut was cold and it rained all day until we hit Millau.
We didn't use any Peage at all and opted to drive through Millau rather than pay the extortionate toll Cat 3 toll of €33.80! ( Cat 2 €15.10) 

The next day we left for the Med coast and stopped in the sunshine at Estartit for a few days to chill a bit.
Thereafter we tracked down the Med coast staying here and there for a few days each. 

We hated it!

I grew up in the 50's and 60's camping in lovely small fishing villages down this coast and it has been transformed into a concrete monstrosity! Not only that ... but hundreds of miles of the coastal band is covered in plastic about 3 - 4 miles in.
Totally depressing and an ecological disaster area! Virtually no wildlife and interspersed with shanty towns of black plastic tents full of N Africans etc. A total disgrace!

Not only that but the few sites that were open were full of overwintering German, Dutch, French and Brits in their small communities seemingly totally set in their respective ways. Quiz night Fridays with Fish and Chips, Bingo Saturdays etc .... you get the picture! Also, most of the bars and restaurants around the coastal strip are closed, so a very limited choice. Cool temperatures after sundown means you are confined to your motorhome. Each to their own, but we found that this is not for us!

At Murcia we decided to get away from the coast into real Spain and things improved.  We decided not to bother with Portugal as we couldn't imagine it would be any different. Some great little sites in the Sierra Espuna and Ruta de los Pueblos Blancos. Thereafter, weather dependent, we treated our trip as a series of "Weekend Breaks" to the larger cities and worked our way north through Seville, Cacares, Plasencia, Segovia, and Burgos. We were going to visit Madrid, but the threat of snow prevented that. We thoroughly enjoyed our city breaks. The weather was good, the locals friendly and Spain was at its best.

Back in France we stopped at St Jean de Luz and Bordeaux for another couple of very enjoyable "city breaks", then a couple of hops using Camping Car Parks, basically up the N10 then N154 to Rouen again. 

We tried a different bypass route, going up to Pont de L'Arche, then the D321 to Fleury-Sur-Andelle, then as before. (This will be our preferred Rouen bypass route for the future)

A total of 3100 miles. Discounted Black Friday Eurotunnel out £122.00, P&O ferry return £123.03

A few points to note:-

Some of the ACSI camping card sites we used are not honouring the published 2023 ACSI price and are adding a surcharge for electricity. Very naughty and I have written to ACSI asking for their comments. I have left reviews on the ACSI sites detail stating these points. While I can understand the reasons for the surcharge, the sites should really wait until 2024 and honour the published rates. It makes a mockery of the discount, and makes one question the value of the ASCI card?

If you are in Spain, try to find either Plenoil or Ballenoil fuel stations. They are currently charging about €0.20 less than other fuel stations - about €1.54 per litre diesel.

The night temperatures often went below zero, but our 1000 watt fan heater kept us toasty warm when we were awake, then the 500 watt oil filled radiator kept us above 5C for the night - a testament to the Benimar insulation.
We also kept the Truma hot water collar on which helped. 2 Duvets used one under one over.

Would we do another long winter trip to Spain/Portugal?

A resounding "NO"

Jeremy

[Adiebt]

How would any fine incurred at the Rouen LEZ be enforced ? 
Im led to believe there is no legal framework to facilitate the exchange of driver details between UK and France and vice versa

[teccer1234]

I understand that until 2024 campervans are still allowed through Rouen, I might have miss read that info but Im sure I did read it on this forum a few months ago

[derek500]

Spain has been cooler this year than normal.   I noticed the UK news today, saying there's a shortage of tomatoes due to the weather in Spain.

Most days has been the usual sitting outside in the sun, though.    Rather be here than home and our golf course is closed due to fog for the umpteenth time, so not missing much!

[flyboyprowler]

Interesting to read Jeremy's view of his trip. As a Spanish resident, I agree that Spain especially is packed with motorhomes at present and this is a throwback of motor-homing having become so much more popular in recent years. We were in Torrox Costa for our Christmas break and all the sites, including two new ones were full to capacity, and even our local site in Vera has been full since well before Christmas. Travel inland, and things improve and thankfully we also seem to be getting more aires available. There is a significant lacking of British vans, most probably due to the Brexit restrictions, but as it appears that a 6 month visa may soon be available {or possibly already is} then we may see more "bargain loving Brits in the sun" next winter!!

Plenty of cheap fuel available and Easygas close to the port of Santander is a good place to start if arriving by ferry!!

[mtravel]

... Quiz night Fridays with Fish and Chips, Bingo Saturdays etc .... you get the picture! ...

Then you feel offended if someone points out that you tend to replicate your lifestyle wherever you are.

... it has been transformed into a concrete monstrosity ...

I think I said it in another topic but there were those who didn't believe me.

But it would be worth investigating who the owners are. It is more probable that surnames such as Smith and Jones, Schmidt and Müller, De Jong and Jansen and not Garcia and González can be read on the doors.

... hundreds of miles of the coastal band is covered in plastic about 3 - 4 miles in ...

Simply greenhouses to produce (in winter) tomatoes and peaches to be sent (maybe) to Great Britain.

... shanty towns of black plastic tents full of N Africans etc. To total disgrace! ...

See above, do you want to pay less for peaches? They need cheap labor.

... Cool temperatures after sundown ...

That was the case this year. Just have gas and you're fine. Instead of consuming 20Kwh a day and complaining that campsites apply a surcharge.

Would we do another winter trip to Spain/Portugal ?

Our reply is a resounding "YES", you can stay at home, one less motorhome around.

[webby1]

Thanks to the research people have done on here I do believe that Motorhomes can pass through Rouen until 2024(South through Rouen thread)As to your other disappointments...............who knows what is real Spain anymore.Certainly not like in the 50s or 60s when Franco made it so.

And as said, all this nonsense you see is generally foreign owned and caused by the foreign demand for cheap crops all year round.As for the North Africans.... well they are basically slaves as far as I can see.

Sorry for your disappointment.......the more people that stay away the better.

[Albertslad]

I’m sorry that you didn’t enjoy your trip, I’m not sure how much was related to the timing. We have only made 3 winter trips to Spain and Portugal, and none as early as Jan 9th! Weather alone would have swayed our decision. Campsite and restaurant availability would have been a concern too.

Your suggestions for avoiding Rouen look interesting and will probably guide us next time we are in the area.

I’m afraid that the coastal development you are repelled by, is something else, and certainly can affect one’s enjoyment of both Spain and Portugal. Inland certainly works for us, and the campsites inland have a lot going for them.

I’m sorry you felt that Portugal was not worth the effort, but would encourage you to have a look later in the year. You also missed out on discovering a really good seafood restaurant at Praia do Pedrogao, though the campsite there was disappointing.

As far as the Acsi sites and their response to the energy costs, I would have expected that. I was surprised, in September, in France, that there were no local price adjustments.

On balance I would say go later next time, but I think we came to a similar conclusion, certainly not before March/April. 

Regards Albertslad

[laimeduck]

Albertslad hello and thanks for your comments. It is good to get some constructive ones.

Worry not, WE DID ENJOY our trip very much, just not the first week on the Med coastal strip! The inland areas were so much better and we will return again as we have done in the past.

I must re-iterate that we have been to both Spain & Portugal many times over the last 50 years, just not at that time of year.

We like to sit out under our awning and watch the world go by of an evening, not sit cooped up in our motorhome. ...... AND we enjoy seeing the locals do what they do, and visiting the places they visit. In other words we go to a country to see the indigenous people and their culture and wildlife, not the Foreigners crammed into their enclaves! (Many of whom are a different form of wildlife!)

So I agree with you that we will not go again in deepest winter, but will revert to our May/June and September October trips and maybe do some long haul trips by air in the winter months. 

As far as ACSI sites are concerned, as I said, I do understand why the sites are doing it, but they have signed up with ACSI to offer a rate which includes an electric hook up, a pitch and a hot shower. This is what ACSI Camping card is based on. The sites need to renegotiate or dump ACSI for 2024, not apply a surcharge in 2023. I think ACSI are going to lose a lot of sites over this?

The plastic covered coastal strip was really huge and appalling, both to look at and experience. There was a major fire at one of the shanty towns in the middle of the sea of plastic ..... lots of Guardia Civil and fire engines and African pickers running out with their possessions - one man had a carrier bag, two brooms and a pair of shoes - all his worldly possessions! Not something I expect to see in the so called developed world and shame on Europe/Spain for allowing it. 

Jeremy

[PeterG]

All you need to Transit Rouen and other towns that have a LEZ is to purchase a Crit'Air Certificate. Mine only cost €4.18 a few years ago.

[laimeduck]

2 hours ago, PeterG said:

All you need to Transit Rouen and other towns that have a LEZ is to purchase a Crit'Air Certificate. Mine only cost €4.18 a few years ago.

Sorry, I don't think that's wholly correct. It depends on the age of your vehicle and which Crit'Air sticker you have. My Benimar is registered 2005 and is Crit'Air 4 and I am not allowed in to any LEZ.

Jeremy

[derek500]

The site we're on has always included 4KwH of electricity per night as part of their ACSI rate.  This year I believe it's 52c for each unit above, up from forty something last year.   We always manage to stay within allowance.  But at 13.93€ per night, we'd have to use a fair amount more to be anywhere near the price of other ACSI sites in the area.

[teccer1234]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:13 PM, laimeduck said:

Sorry, I don't think that's wholly correct. It depends on the age of your vehicle and which Crit'Air sticker you have. My Benimar is registered 2005 and is Crit'Air 4 and I am not allowed in to any LEZ.

Jeremy

my van is also Crit-air4 and until 2024 I am allowed to drive through Rouen, as all camper vans are.

[laimeduck]

1 hour ago, teccer1234 said:

my van is also Crit-air4 and until 2024 I am allowed to drive through Rouen, as all camper vans are.

Sorry I still don't think that is 100% correct! There was a long thread a couple of months ago and Derek contacted the Rouen authorities who replied about Motorhomes under 3500kg but did not answer his query about "poids loudes" motorhomes. So until that question is answered I do not think it is safe to assume that motorhomes over 3500kg with a Crit'Air 4 rating are exempt.

[Barry Lineker]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:26 PM, laimeduck said:

Would we do another long winter trip to Spain/Portugal?

A resounding "NO"

Jeremy

We wont see you on "Bargain Loving Brits in Spain" then?🤣 

[laimeduck]

39 minutes ago, Barry Lineker said:

We wont see you on "Bargain Loving Brits in Spain" then?🤣 

Only if it's in the mountains! Tee hee!

[witzend]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:26 PM, laimeduck said:

Just a brief report on our 7 week trip down through France and round Spain from January 9th to February 15th.

The next day we left for the Med coast and stopped in the sunshine at Estartit for a few days to chill a bit.
Thereafter we tracked down the Med coast staying here and there for a few days each. 

We hated it! it has been transformed into a concrete monstrosity! Not only that ... but hundreds of miles of the coastal band is covered in plastic about 3 - 4 miles in.
Totally depressing and an ecological disaster area! Virtually no wildlife and interspersed with shanty towns of black plastic tents full of N Africans etc. A total disgrace!

Would we do another long winter trip to Spain/Portugal?

A resounding "NO"

Jeremy

Our sentiments exactly only done it once never again but did enjoy Portugal after passing thru Spain an returned for 6 winters Dec to Late Feb but haven't been back since Covid   

[witzend]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:19 AM, Adiebt said:

How would any fine incurred at the Rouen LEZ be enforced ? 
Im led to believe there is no legal framework to facilitate the exchange of driver details between UK and France and vice versa

Could it be thru the info You supply when applying for the Ctrl Air certificate 

[whatsupdoc]

On 2/20/2023 at 3:26 PM, laimeduck said:

Just a brief report on our 7 week trip down through France and round Spain from January 9th to February 15th.
You may recall that we had not done a winter trip before, and I was concerned over heating our old Benimar as we are not set up for winter. Thus we decided on the hopefully warmer Med coast route but needed EHU through France. Plus we were not able to transit Rouen due to the new LEZ.
I will describe only the salient bits.

We used a route on D roads to bypass Rouen. Come off the A28 at J12, then D98, D15, D85 to Martainville-Epreville. Then D13, D53 to Bourg-Beaudouin, then D6014 to Fleury-sur-Andelle, then D1 to Les Andelys. Then D313and D316 across to the N154 at Normanville. It worked OK, a bit slow in places, but I reckon it was about 20-25 minutes longer than the old transit route for Rouen. It rained the whole day and was cold. 

We had found an ACSI site at Sully-sur-Loire with the required EHU. From Sully we tracked down the Loire -Sancerre, Nevers, Moulins, to Clermont Ferrand, then down the A75, to another ACSI site at Le Bosc, near Clermont -l'Herault. Once again iut was cold and it rained all day until we hit Millau.
We didn't use any Peage at all and opted to drive through Millau rather than pay the extortionate toll Cat 3 toll of €33.80! ( Cat 2 €15.10) 

The next day we left for the Med coast and stopped in the sunshine at Estartit for a few days to chill a bit.
Thereafter we tracked down the Med coast staying here and there for a few days each. 

We hated it!

I grew up in the 50's and 60's camping in lovely small fishing villages down this coast and it has been transformed into a concrete monstrosity! Not only that ... but hundreds of miles of the coastal band is covered in plastic about 3 - 4 miles in.
Totally depressing and an ecological disaster area! Virtually no wildlife and interspersed with shanty towns of black plastic tents full of N Africans etc. A total disgrace!

Not only that but the few sites that were open were full of overwintering German, Dutch, French and Brits in their small communities seemingly totally set in their respective ways. Quiz night Fridays with Fish and Chips, Bingo Saturdays etc .... you get the picture! Also, most of the bars and restaurants around the coastal strip are closed, so a very limited choice. Cool temperatures after sundown means you are confined to your motorhome. Each to their own, but we found that this is not for us!

At Murcia we decided to get away from the coast into real Spain and things improved.  We decided not to bother with Portugal as we couldn't imagine it would be any different. Some great little sites in the Sierra Espuna and Ruta de los Pueblos Blancos. Thereafter, weather dependent, we treated our trip as a series of "Weekend Breaks" to the larger cities and worked our way north through Seville, Cacares, Plasencia, Segovia, and Burgos. We were going to visit Madrid, but the threat of snow prevented that. We thoroughly enjoyed our city breaks. The weather was good, the locals friendly and Spain was at its best.

Back in France we stopped at St Jean de Luz and Bordeaux for another couple of very enjoyable "city breaks", then a couple of hops using Camping Car Parks, basically up the N10 then N154 to Rouen again. 

We tried a different bypass route, going up to Pont de L'Arche, then the D321 to Fleury-Sur-Andelle, then as before. (This will be our preferred Rouen bypass route for the future)

A total of 3100 miles. Discounted Black Friday Eurotunnel out £122.00, P&O ferry return £123.03

A few points to note:-

Some of the ACSI camping card sites we used are not honouring the published 2023 ACSI price and are adding a surcharge for electricity. Very naughty and I have written to ACSI asking for their comments. I have left reviews on the ACSI sites detail stating these points. While I can understand the reasons for the surcharge, the sites should really wait until 2024 and honour the published rates. It makes a mockery of the discount, and makes one question the value of the ASCI card?

If you are in Spain, try to find either Plenoil or Ballenoil fuel stations. They are currently charging about €0.20 less than other fuel stations - about €1.54 per litre diesel.

The night temperatures often went below zero, but our 1000 watt fan heater kept us toasty warm when we were awake, then the 500 watt oil filled radiator kept us above 5C for the night - a testament to the Benimar insulation.
We also kept the Truma hot water collar on which helped. 2 Duvets used one under one over.

Would we do another long winter trip to Spain/Portugal?

A resounding "NO"

Jeremy

We travelled to Spain via Santander and then south through Portugal, which was excellent until we reached the south and then found places hard to come by, accelerating our entry into Spain. 

Andalucía was excellent, but if we had to rely solely on campsites, or serviced Aires, I'm sure we would have had a very different opinion. All were not pleasant places to be, rammed with over-wintering northern Europeans. 

Agree with Jeremy about the plastic - it may well be necessary, but what an appalling sight stretching for miles after mile. But then came Cabo de Gata... 

Gave Benidorm a very Very wide berth! 

Would we go again - definitely, provided we could be off-grid most of the time. 

[Albertslad]

”Rammedness” is a consequence of the popularity of our hobby, and the lack of sufficient “off-grid” camping. I guess Aires and their equivalent were supposed to cater for and control that market. Off-gridding or wilding has to be done responsibly, and still requires some infrastructure. 

I’ve heard people expressing the view that campsites and Aires are equally sociable places, and the interaction and exchanges with neighbours from across Europe are all part of the experience. I’ve also heard the opposite.

I’m not sure that travelling in a camper/motorhome is any longer a pastime for loners.

My wife hitched to Greece and slept on the beach on her first trip to in 1971, but recognises that it’s not going to happen in a 3.5 tonne, all singing and dancing camper/motorhomes in 2023.

Finding an acceptable way to visit places that have become popular, in winter or any other time, is tricky. But we’ll continue to do it, for a while, but it will be “ rammedness” that kills it.

happy Camping, Albertslad

[peterjl]

Hi. We are now in northern france on our way home from a trip through France and Spain. Spent all our time inland apart from Cabo de Gata and non of the campsites were busy except the Aire in Seville, but that’s always busy.

first winter trip like this to warmer climes for some years, prior to covid we used to go to the ski resorts, but enjoyed this so much will go again. 
 

peter 

[Les W]

Their is a 'corridor' through Rouen that is not subject to the LEZ zone charges. 

[Barry Lineker]

On 2/26/2023 at 9:20 AM, witzend said:

Our sentiments exactly only done it once never again but did enjoy Portugal after passing thru Spain an returned for 6 winters Dec to Late Feb but haven't been back since Covid   

We started travelling to Spain for the winter in 2010, primarily to visit family who had moved there. Our time spent in Spain got longer and longer with us spending nearly 6 months at a time when we were fulltiming for 5 years.

Have to say we enjoyed our time there, even our occaisional visits to Benidorm😮

We have only been back briefly to Northern Spain since we were kicked out when COVID struck in 2020.

Now we are back in Blighty with a large garden again spending months travelling is no longer an option.........But hey it was fun whilst we did it 😎

[simians]

Leaving Dieppe 30th Nov. '22 there were no signs of Crit'Air enforcement on the western route around Rouen ie A151, A150, N1338 then over the Seine via the Pont Gustave Flaubert, meeting up with the N338 and the A13. Similarly on the return to Dieppe 26th Feb. '23. I personally doubt the Crit'Air zone will include this route, compelling non compliant vehicles to detour via Yvetot and the Pont de Brotonne. 

As most will already be aware, if you are after 'warm' Spanish winter sun, that is November to March, inland generally, is not the place to be. You don't have to travel many  kms from the coast to find it decidedly brass monkey weather due to elevation, and that includes of course the vast plain in Spain (Meseta Central). Its little wonder most motorhomers congregate on the coastal plain to get what they're missing back home oop north, and are prepared to suffer the privations of overcrowding. It's still possible to find pockets of relative isolation if willing to accept not being on frontline view of the sea situations.