Adblue replacement

[Grumpyman]

I have just heard of a case where the Ad Blue caused the ECU Warning light to come on warning that there was only ten more ignition starts before a shutdown . The person concerned had to syphon the old  blue out and replace with new and reset the ECU.So how old can you keep Adblue before replacing it.

Grumpyman

[Derek Uzzell]

The 'shelf life' of AdBlue ( and the potential effect old AdBlue can have) was discussed in this recent forum thread.

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/62764-ad-blue/

[onecal]

Hi

The warnings would be related to the level of AdBlue left in the tank (Low level warning) All is needed on a low level warning is to top up with fresh Adblue as per owners manual instructions There should be no need for a ECU reset especially as you say it was not empty?

Regards

[Keithl]

@Grumpyman What vehicle was this on?

The '10 starts remaining' sounds like a modern Sprinter and if so then it does have to be cleared by either a dealer or a high level scanner (ie not an OBD reader).

And how old was the Adblue in the vehicle? It could also be poor quality or contaminated, this is another common fault causing the '10 starts remaining' warning.

[onecal]

With Mercedes this is true , but even then a check engine light would be up first with an alarm if damage to the SCR system has occurred maybe due to contaminated  adBlue or failure of the SCR system 

If the contaminated adBlue is flushed out and replaced in time with fresh adBlue,  a check engine light and reset will be sufficient on the sprinter, provided no other damage is done to the components of the SCR system.

Note:- on the newer sprinters the adBlue tank level can be accessed with the steering wheel buttons (instructions are available in your owners manual)

Regards 

[Grumpyman]

You are correct it was a Mercedes 

[onecal]

Ok 

As advised if no check engine light is up , refill with fresh adBlue and reset should suffice on the older sprinter. On the other hand if the check engine light is up with the 10 starts remaining it needs a diagnostic reset with yes maybe flushing with fresh adBlue and replacement of out of date or contaminated Adblue or any part that may be damaged in the SCR system which may show up on the diagnostic tool 

[John52]

What the OP describes is normal when the adblu is running low

There is nothing here to suggest its due to old adblu

I have used adblu 2 years out of date with no issues

The only issue I am aware of is the active ingredient becoming weaker with age, losing approx half its strength after 30 years depending on how its stored.

So my 2 year out of date adblu may have caused my van to emit 1% more fumes.  No one can say thats OK so they have to say don't use it when its out of date.  Even though using old adblu is probably more evironmentally friendly than chucking it and refilling with new, because of the large quantity of fossil fuel burned to produce adblu.  Something thats completely ignored - like they ignore the environmental damage of producing electric cars and batteries when they say they are 'zero emission'

On the thread Derek links to I repeatedly ask onecal to describe what happens to old adblu that renders it unsuitable, or to describe the damage he says it causes

But he just keeps changing the subject so I gave up.

[onecal]

Hi John again

Yes I agree it did look that way to me too at the start on reading same But he did go on to say they had to drain the fluid and reset the ECU (see attached)

This is why I have outlined as I have on my last post ."As advised if no check engine light is up , refill with fresh adBlue and reset should suffice on the older sprinter. On the other hand if the check engine light is up with the 10 starts remaining it needs a diagnostic reset with yes maybe flushing with fresh adBlue and replacement of out of date or contaminated Adblue or any part that may be damaged in the SCR system which may show up on the diagnostic tool "

Maybe John you will tell us why the experts tell us not to use out of date adBlue  ?

Not wishing as you allude changing the subject in any way 

 

On 10/07/2023 at 14:56, Grumpyman said:

I have just heard of a case where the Ad Blue caused the ECU Warning light to come on warning that there was only ten more ignition starts before a shutdown . The person concerned had to syphon the old  blue out and replace with new and reset the ECU.So how old can you keep Adblue before replacing it.

Grumpyman

 

[John52]

1 minute ago, onecal said:

Hi John again

Yes I agree it did look that way to me too at the start on reading same But he did go on to say they had to drain the fluid and reset the ECU (see attached)

This is why I have outlined as I have on my last post ."As advised if no check engine light is up , refill with fresh adBlue and reset should suffice on the older sprinter. On the other hand if the check engine light is up with the 10 starts remaining it needs a diagnostic reset with yes maybe flushing with fresh adBlue and replacement of out of date or contaminated Adblue or any part that may be damaged in the SCR system which may show up on the diagnostic tool "

 

Here we go again

You are still not saying what you think happens to adblu when it goes out of date, and how that causes issues you don't get with fresh adblu.  (Like the warning coming on when the level gets low)

 

[onecal]

John 

Damage to the SCR system is damage as many has had to face This is fact, sadly.  Are you saying it may do no damage to the SCR system by using out of date or contaminated adBlue ?

[John52]

I have heard of people watering the adblu down - even peeing in the tank (pee contains urea but not enough).  Neither of which is likely to work because the system tests the adblu electronically (which fraudsters can defeat so it will run without adblu - might be worth doing for a long distance lorry but not a motorhome)  In which case they might not like to admit what they have done and just put it down to old adblu.

But I have never heard anyone explain what they think happens to old adblu that makes it stop the engine, or cause damage that fresh adblu does not.  

When I ask, I just get repetition of the official advice not to use old adblu, or changing the subject to 'The SCR system is expensive etc'

[GandJP]

I am just going to see a friend who is a very experienced vehicle technician (mechanic to you and me) and although he works solely on cars he must have some knowledge on this topic and I will ask him just what damage is caused and what is the part that is damaged if of course that is what can happen. 

[onecal]

Again John ,

Do you endorse using out of date or contaminated adBlue in the SCR system and are you saying it may do no damage to the SCR system? 

[Den]

It’s quite simple and not worth discussing. 

if you want to use cheap, out of date Adblu then do so. 

if like me you are a little more sensible having spent thousands on Adblu and regeneration problems on our minibuses and luxury midi coaches ( 30 seaters) 

we now only use pump Adblu widely available and since we stopped using eBay Adblu etc have had little problems. 
we do keep a couple of 20ltr containers and these are rotated frequently. 
for the small cost of Adblu compared to mechanical problems it’s a small price to pay. 
I think some people just like wind up other people. 
pays your money and take the choice. 

of course you could be lucky like a smoker whom gets to 100 and says smoking never hurt me !!  

[John52]

Well I think we all know that a new SCR system costs more than a bottle of adblu

The question is what happens to out of date adblu that causes damage that fresh adblu doesn't

I hoped those who assert that it does might be able to explain how

[spirou]

The way I see it, Adblue can develop particles/crystals over time which won't do much good to the SCR system as a whole. Since most containers aren't clear you're going to have some problems figuring out whether that happened to you or not. My oldest pour was close to 2 years old and there were no issues.

12 months is a conservative rule of thumb, I've seen 3 years mentioned as absolute max under optimal storage conditions (<10°C) but if you want to dig further you might as well order and read the relevant ISO standard https://www.iso.org/standard/66410.html

[onecal]

Ok you were  lucky , But that's not much good to the many who were not so lucky  that have been hit with expensive bills because of out of date or contaminated AdBlue ,  I would hate for anyone here to think it's ok to use out of date or contaminated adBlue in their SCR and think it may not do damage to this very sensitive system 

Surly all the experts and the vehicle manufacturers are not also wrong? 

But again is John endorsing using out of date or contaminated adBlue in the SCR system and are you saying it may do no damage to the SCR system

Damage is damage to the system Just as water instead of oil in an engine will cause damage 

The choice is yours ,  there is no argument, but I respect your decision and it's again up to the individual if they do not want to heed expert advice and put whatever fluids in their vehicle ,despite what the manufactures advise   

[John52]

8 minutes ago, spirou said:

The way I see it, Adblue can develop particles/crystals over time

 

10 minutes ago, spirou said:

The way I see it, Adblue can develop particles/crystals over time

Thank spirou - its a refreshing change to see someone attempt to answer the question asked.

Yes, crystals could form, but wouldn't the filter deal with them if the agitation of the vehicle tank had not dissolved them first?

Then the fluid flowing through the filter dissolve them again? 

[onecal]

John 

Surly all the experts and the vehicle manufacturers are not also wrong? 

Damage is damage to the system Just as putting water instead of oil in an engine will cause damage

But again are you  endorsing using out of date or contaminated adBlue in the SCR system and are you saying it may do no damage to the SCR system

Damage is damage to the system Just as water instead of oil in an engine will cause damage 

The choice is yours ,  there is no argument, but I respect your decision and it's again up to the individual if they do not want to heed expert advice and put whatever fluids in their vehicle ,despite what the manufactures advise 

[John52]

12 minutes ago, onecal said:

John 

Surly all the experts and the vehicle manufacturers are not also wrong? 

But again are you  endorsing using out of date or contaminated adBlue in the SCR system and are you saying it may do no damage to the SCR system

Damage is damage to the system Just as water instead of oil in an engine will cause damage 

The choice is yours ,  there is no argument, but I respect your decision and it's again up to the individual if they do not want to heed expert advice and put whatever fluids in their vehicle ,despite what the manufactures advise 

When you are asserting something so strongly and repeatedly I hoped you would be able to explain it.

But we are still going round in circles here

I have explained why the 'experts and vehicle manufacturers' have to say don't use old adblu.

Why can you not explain what happens to old adblu that causes damage fresh adblu doesn't as you say?  

I see no point in continuing if you are just going to keep changing the subject to water and oil, the price of the SCR system, or demanding I prove a negative.

I don't know what you are thinking.  So as long as you refuse to say what you think happens to adblu when it passes its best before date, I don't know where to start.

[onecal]

Again John 

I am as you say "asserting something so strongly and repeatedly" because i would not like any one reading these posts to think it's ok to use out of date or contaminated adBlue in their SCR system thinking it may not do an harm to their SCR system

The advice from the vehicle manufactures and indeed adBlue manufactures surly is not wrong ? 

The choice is yours ,  there is no argument, but I respect your decision and it's again up to the individual if they do not want to heed expert advice and put whatever fluids in their vehicle ,despite what the manufactures advise to prevent damage    

I ask you a very simple question .Are you  endorsing using out of date or contaminated adBlue in the SCR system and are you saying, it may do no damage to the SCR system?

I hope not 

Regards

 

[GandJP]

Found that my friend is on holiday so I will have to wait for him to return. Personally I wouldn't put anything out of date into myself let my motorhome so what it may or may not damage is irrelevant to me as I would not want to take the risk. I presume this is all about the saving of a few pennies which seems to be a national pastime of this country but not for me. I am of course happy to buy something thats cheaper but only if its there at the time and doesnt invoilve me having to put myself out to get. I saw some adblue at a really good price and bought some but I wouldnt have bought enough to last me years and years thats for sure but would have bought more to cover my next top up. My MH cost me £50,000 and I look after it big time so using something that might damage it is a big no no! 

[onecal]

Hi

I really think no one wants to take that chance considering the advise from the manufactures of both vehicle and product . I would not like any one reading these posts to think it's ok to use out of date or contaminated adBlue in their SCR system thinking it may not do an harm to their SCR system.

Regards

[John52]

Just to recap;

Adblu is sprayed into the exhaust system and blown away

As far as I can see, the only effect of the out of date adblu I have used is the active ingredient (urea) is slightly weakened, so it won't neutralise the toxic gases quite as well before they are expelled.

Slightly higher emissions - No one can say thats OK

So the manufacturers have to say don't use it. Even though it may be more environmentally friendly to use it than to chuck it and buy fresh, due to the burning of fossil fuel to produce adblu.

No one has come up with any other reason, other than the slightly higher emissions.

When asked what happens to adblu when is passes its best before date, and how this causes alleged damage to the vehicle, or exactly what alleged damage, people change the subject.

So I can only assume they don't know.