Motorhome comparisons

[shaun Gleeson]

Looking to upgrade our current 2007 swift bolero with  a 6m van. Looking at either a rollerteam t590 or benimar mileo 202, with the 140bhp 2.3 fiat engine and probably the auto gearbox. Anyone have experience of either or both? We are a couple in our 60's, regularly tour europe with our ebikes and now want to take the grandkids. Many thanks Shaun

[Alanb]

I cannot advise on the relative merits of the vehicles mentioned, bit I would advise careful consideration about buying a vehicle fitted with an auto gearbox.  Automatic gearboxes seem to figure disproportionately as problems on the Fiat Forum; repairs can be difficult to arrange, and protracted.

[Derek Uzzell]

Shaun 

As the number of people participating on this forum is quite small and you are interested in two makes/models of motorhome that will be relatively rare in the UK, I'm doubtful that you'll get feedback based on practical experience of those vehicles.

The Rollerteam T-Line 590 and the Benimar Mileo 202 models have both been marketed for around 8 years and, as you've mentioned the 2.3litre motor, I'm assuming you are considering buying secondhand (the current motor is now a 2.2litre unit).

I'm not sure when the 2.3litre 140 Multijet motor was introduced, but I think - when that power-plant was coupled to an automatic gearbox - the transmission would always have been the "9Speed" torque-converter 'box rather than the Comfort-Matic automated-manual 'box that was an option on Ducato from 2006.  Problems relating to the Comfort-Matic unit could be difficult to diagnose and fix and it's likely that it is this transmission that Alanb is referring to above. The 9Speed 'box generally gets excellent reviews from owners and the press, though I note this Fiat Forum entry

https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/gearbox-fault-9-speed.497154/

There are several on-line reviews of both motorhomes and a GOOGLE-search on Rollerteam T590 problems and Benimar Mileo 202 problems should provide some useful information. And if you don't get any 'based on experience' advice here, you might try asking on the larger MotorhomeFacts and MotorhomeFun forums.

[John52]

Only Fiat did the now obsolete Comfortmatic Ducato gearbox, and I don't know of any fleet vehicles with them - NHS Ambulances etc are all manual.  Owners love them when they are working, but being so rare now means you really struggle to find anyone with the facilities to fix them when they go wrong.

[onecal]

Hi,

Or as indeed here 

Comfortmatic Clutch Noise

---

By Sharon MQ
June 26 in Motorhome Matters

[Derek Uzzell]

On 20/07/2023 at 08:24, John52 said:

Only Fiat did the now obsolete Comfortmatic Ducato gearbox, and I don't know of any fleet vehicles with them - NHS Ambulances etc are all manual.  Owners love them when they are working, but being so rare now means you really struggle to find anyone with the facilities to fix them when they go wrong.

This 2015 forum thread

https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/topic/37179-fiat-comfortmatic-gearbox/

included the following statement by 'rolandrat'.

It's very rare to hear of Comfortmatic gearbox faults, there are thousands out there on the roads so the odd one or two might crop up occasionally. ALL the Fiat x250 ambulances in our area are Comfortmatic and are in use 24/7. Like all government run organisations operating costs are being cut to the bone and ambulances are no exception. I have a close relative who drives them plus Mercs. They are achieving very high mileages running at maximum weights and are very reliable....

[John52]

'In the UK all ambulances have manual gearboxes'

https://www.quora.com/Does-an-ambulance-vehicle-have-a-manual-or-an-automatic-transmission#:~:text=In the UK all ambulances,manual gearbox in the UK.

I fail to see how using automatic gearboxes could cut operating costs 'to the bone', when by Fiat's own figures cost more to buy, and increase fuel consumption.

And thats before you get into the costs of repairs....

[Derek Uzzell]

When Nick Fisher (euroserv) was running a fleet of hire vans, some of these had the Comfort-Matic transmission and (in a 2014 forum thread) Nick said

We have had absolutely no problems with ours and three of them have gone on to pastures new with over 100,000 miles on them. Mine is still only on about 6000 miles and won't do many miles each year while doing the work that it does, supporting charity events.

Nick thought that Comfort-Matic was better suited to the 3.0litre motor than to the 2.3litre version, but he was up-beat about the transmission generally. I remember saying that Comfort-Matic was a dead-end and that USA motoring comments indicated that the future would involve multi-ratio torque-converter transmissions. Nick was dismissive that this would happen, but now Ducato has a 9-speed toque-converter auto-box and RWD Transits have a 10-speed equivalent.

When the Ducato-clone Ram Promaster began to be marketed in the USA in 2014, the engine choice was the 3.0litre Iveco/JTD diesel motor or a Chrysler 3.6litre petrol. Both engines had automatic transmission with the diesel having Comfort-Matic. USA reviewers didn't much care for Comfort-Matic and the diesel option was dropped after two years. I don't know if that was due to unreliability problems, though this extract from a Ram Promaster forum thread about a 2015 diesel-fuelled vehicle may be of interest

Okay gonna update you all! The dealers SUCK! In the last year it has been in 4 times to have the flywheel, clutch and clutch actuator replaced. It would run for about 3000 miles then act up. Not to mention a leak. Thought it was the actuator leaking the oil. Last time they were in there had them replace both the rear main seal and the front seal to the tranny. Guess what rear main seal is leaking so bad I have to put a quart or two in it in a week. The whole back of van is covered in oil now! My driveway looks like a diesel murder scene! This is a service van and needs to be on the road. Each time they keep it for 2 weeks to 2 months. Not to mention the missing bolts and bent parts and broken fuel line! Its going back in today so they can check the leak! SMH Dodge/Ram/Fiat needs to get their crap figured out!

[John52]

Well I suppose its different when you are hiring them out like Nick.

Automatics are nice to drive so will be popular with many - we saw on the Paul Merton programmes where they didn't like the manual and Paul couldn't drive it at all.  If I was hiring one for a few days I would rather have an automatic too.  Would make a pleasant change, and if it went wrong it would be someone else's problem.

When you are hiring vans out, lots of different novice van drivers who might be in the wrong gear, jerk the clutch, crash the gears etc  So a manual transmission may have a harder life, more repairs etc?  And its the hirer who pays for the extra fuel the automatic uses.

I'd quite like one myself, but its the thought of being stranded in one broken down that put me off.  I like something I can fix myself and, like most people, I wouldn't have a clue with that.

I certainly wouldn't buy an old comfortmatic to tour Europe.  Nobody would want to know you when it went wrong.

Edited July 22, 2023 by John52

[Alanb]

Oh dear!  I seem to have diverted the thread towards a different subject.

What prompted my earlier post was the following post, dated 10 June 2023, on the Fiat Forum.  While not stated, I believe that the gearbox would be the Fiat 9 speed automatic.

"I broke down on April 26th in the South of France in my van. I am a lady in my 70’s who has been recently widowed. I was travelling alone with just my young rescue dog for company.

I waited five and a half hours on a busy road junction before a low loader picked me up. I was then taken to a Fiat dealership an hour away. It was too late for the van to be looked at that evening, so the following morning the mechanic did a diagnostic test on it but could not find the fault.
I was low loaded again to the bigger ‘parent’ garage another 45 minutes away. When I got there the service manager didn’t want the van. I insisted that as it was still under warranty with only 9,125 miles on the clock…they had to accept it.
The van was taken off the lorry but put in a hotel car park next door. I was told they could not look at it until they got permission from Fiat Technical France. I said this was rubbish, as if I had broken down at the roadside someone would have inspected it,,,,as they had already done do at the first garage!
My van was left for 9 days without anyone looking at it at all. When I complainEd to Fiat Assist International/Allianz they said they had been told by the garage that someone was checking it regularly! I said this was NOT true. (I was still staying in it) at that stage). Still nothing was done.
Eventually work was started but the fault could not be found. An E-Tool had to be sourced from the U.K!
It is now six and a half weeks since I broke down and my van is still in a garage in Castres, France.
Yesterday I was informed by Allianz that Fiat is still waiting for some parts to complete the repair and they won’t be available until 21st-28th JULY. - That will mean my 21 reg van will be off the road for over 3 months.
The fault is with the automatic gear box. - A valve problem. They are waiting for the delivery of joints/seals to finish the repair. I am going to attempt to ask them to put a new gearbox in when I try to get hold of someone senior in the company on Monday. If they cannot do the repair in a reasonable amount of time then they need to look at replacing the whole unit…..which will not need the joints/seals.
I would never recommend anyone to buy a Fiat vehicle again after this dreadful experience. At the moment I am still stuck in France, as repatriation by train, plane or even driving by car from the South of France to the SW of England is not an option with a young rescue dog who gets car sick.
I would never have attempted this trip if I had been in an old vehicle. I felt I was being quite responsible in a new van. If anyone has any suggestions of how to move this matter forwards/contact details for someone senior in Fiat, I would be very grateful."

I am sure that John52 is aware of that post as in his alter ego, he posted a credable explanation for the delay in repair.

We have two automatic gearbox equipped cars, but if they fail I suspect that repair costs could exceed their value. I  would like to add that the gear changes on the DSG equipped Skoda Fabia 2, are so smooth as to be only noticeable by checking the dashboard indication.

Edited July 23, 2023 by Alanb

[Geeco]

I have had two Fiats with comformatic boxes. The first an Autotrail with 2.3 150 hp engine that completed 80,000 kms trouble free. The second my current vehicle an Adria with 2.3 180hp has 44,000kms also trouble free. I feel the 180hp version suits the comformatic better than the 150hp version. You do not need to anticipate a slow reaction to hills as much when on cruise control. Most motorhomes /campervans are automatics here. Same with cars more autos than manual. Cheers,

[Brian Kirby]

On 18/07/2023 at 22:59, shaun Gleeson said:

Looking to upgrade our current 2007 swift bolero with  a 6m van. Looking at either a rollerteam t590 or benimar mileo 202, with the 140bhp 2.3 fiat engine and probably the auto gearbox. Anyone have experience of either or both? We are a couple in our 60's, regularly tour europe with our ebikes and now want to take the grandkids. Many thanks Shaun

I have no direct knowledge of either of these vans, other than what I can read and see.

You do not state the ages (or genders) of your grandchildren, so it is difficult to comment on the longer term practicality of these vans for your family.  The following comments are therefore merely personal and observational.

First, payload.  IMO insufficient (especially while carrying at last two e-bikes) and, even if plated at 3,650kg I think liable to prove problematic for 4, as the upgrade will not enhance either axle limit.  From the layouts, I would suspect the front axle will hit problems first.  Both these vans should be on the Maxi chassis, IMO, to gain advantage from its greater individual individual loads, even if down-plated to 3,500 kg.

Second, children involve a lot of extra "stuff", which takes extra space to transport.  The layouts do not seem to have an overabundance of storage space.

Third, children grow, so how many years more do you expect to be able to take them with you before weight, size, and  stuff, exclude them, and you end up in a compromised two berth motorhome?

The Rollerteam bed widths appear a bit at variance with the vehicle width, even on the layout plans.  Elastic side walls?  😄

Both beds require bedding to be removed and stored by day.  Tedious, and where does the bedding then go?  If any of the occupants becomes ill, where do the others sit and eat?

In short, I think both vans are over compromised in favour of claiming the extra two berths, and lack the necessary payload and storage space for much more than weekend trips in (relative! 🙂) comfort.

Again, personal view, but for just two adults touring Europe for longer periods, 3,500kg is a tight fit.  The maxi chassis brings significant advantage here, (because of its greater axle load limits) whether plated at 3,500kg or higher.  Given that chassis Six metres length is comfortable and practical, but more berths require greater than 6.0 metres length - and definitely need the Maxi chassis (and more than 3,500kg mam, with implications for driving licences - depending on when you passed your test).

So in summary, quart into pint pot.  Sorry!  🙂 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Brian Kirby

[John52]

3 hours ago, Geeco said:

 Most motorhomes /campervans are automatics here. Same with cars more autos than manual. Cheers,

That makes all the difference.  I don't know any mechanics round here trained to fix Ducato Comfortmatics because they are never likely to encounter one.   And if they did I bet they wouldn't touch it. Thats the only thing that puts me off.

I wouldn't worry about weight within reason, because I don't know of any motorhomer with first hand experience of being weighed.  My X2/50 Maxi van looked like an ordinary van from the outside, so I got pulled in for a weight check with the lorries heading for Dover.  Soon as I opened the side door they said 'Oh its a motorhome, we don't weigh those, you can go' So I just drove past all the lorries queing for the weighbridge and carried on.   Nothing checked at all AFAIK

And I haven't seen any weight checks for years.  I guess because the police are too busy, or lorry weight limits increased, or both.

Edited July 24, 2023 by John52

[onecal]

Hi Shaun 

In keeping with your original post , I have no personal experience of the two motorhomes but I think Brian has hit the nail on the head and given you excellent overall advice . The only advice i can pass on as I have quite a lot of experience in repairing and servicing of is the auto boxes, I would advise if for use in a mototorhome ,go for the manual .Its a personal choice of motorhome, engine, gearbox, Let us know what you think Shaun

Regards

[Brian Kirby]

5 hours ago, Geeco said:

I have had two Fiats with comformatic boxes. The first an Autotrail with 2.3 150 hp engine that completed 80,000 kms trouble free. The second my current vehicle an Adria with 2.3 180hp has 44,000kms also trouble free. I feel the 180hp version suits the comformatic better than the 150hp version. You do not need to anticipate a slow reaction to hills as much when on cruise control. Most motorhomes /campervans are automatics here. Same with cars more autos than manual. Cheers,

Just to add, on the issue of automatics, we had a Comfortmatic box on an earlier van, and I hated it with a vengeance - although others seemed to get on with them OK.  Simply put, it was fine on more or less level roads (although it was useless entering roundabouts, where it would drive off absolutely fine, and then spend an aeon of time getting into second to continue driving off!) but totally useless on hilly roads, especially twisting uphill roads, as it was invariably in the wrong gear at almost any moment of time, and then dithered around for so long working out which gear to use next, it had lost speed to the extent it needed a further downshift, queue further dithering until, on a number of occasions, it came to a standstill, engaged first, and then failed to hit second promptly, and staggered off in second with insufficient revs to pull cleanly.  Solution?  Put it in manual mode!  So, question.  Why pay the extra for an "automatic" that you had to drive in manual mode?  Also, being a robotised manual gearbox, it was also horrifyingly complex (and only accessible via letterbox sized Hymer Exis-i "bonnet cover" that the cost of any intervention was bound to be exacerbated by the time spent removing and reinstalling at least the Box.  

On DSG boxes, I once had one on a VW Polo courtesy car which was fine, in that it was very smooth with barely noticeable gear changes.  My objection to this one was that it incessantly changed gear for the slightest change in incline, to the point where I thought it was either neurotic, or just showing off!  That too, seemed to me to bear heading for heavy garage bills through undue wear on its double clutch mechanism as it endlessly switched between boxes.  I doubt it was unique in that respect as I was supplied by a VW dealer who, I reasoned, would have been daft to lent out a dud - if only for reputational reasons.  So, a torque converter with transmission lock seems to me the best compromise between fuel economy and potentially costly complexity.

[onecal]

Hi Brian,

I am afraid most of the faults with the DSG boxes are down to inappropriate service regime , or in some cases no service at all.  Yes they sometimes do need re programming from time to time and this does help, sadly not always if damage has occurred from Out of balance DMF or low or contaminated DSG fluid or indeed on many slipping clutches from poor driving techniques.Yes they can be very expensive to fix if badly damaged So again for motorhomes , manual may be the best option as advised On the other hand lovely and easy to drive when working correctly. Again Shaun let us know your views.

Regards