paperwork needed to go to EU

[teccer1234]

26 years of winter visits to spain pre B####t this year we're hoping to go mid Sep to mid Dec on tunnel.

everything was simple before but now I need to know all paperwork needed for just under 90 days.

wife has Irish passport, me, English passport, got eu cover with Comfort +green card, Ehic runs out next year so no problem,

Crit'aire stickers (not much use as No 4), Angle Morts stickers, I understand as travelling with Irish wife, no need for customs to stamp my passport, so what else do I need before they jump on me, maybe a pack of snow socks for the return through France in December ?

plus taking dog so getting a AHC

[GandJP]

Nothing has really changed as far as I can see. Yes you will need a CritAire sticker whatever your van, You will get your passport stamped but they do that as a matter of course. Angle Morts if you are over 3.5 tons, GB sticker on rear of van. Snow chains yes in some areas or socks of course. We went down as far as Bergerac in Febuary so didnt need any. We have continued to go over every year since Brexit and have had NO problems at all in any way and have not had to do anything particularly special since the Covid restrictions have gone stopped. I have no idea of the 'paperwork' you are talking about. I am going to France again in September for the third time this year and have come across nothing much apart from the few odds and sods that has changed to any degree. 

[malc d]

I believe you now need a UK sticker ( not sure that GB is still accepted ?)

[GandJP]

OK its UK and not GB sorry for that.

[teccer1234]

4 hours ago, GandJP said:

, You will get your passport stamped but they do that as a matter of course.

I understood that if the wife is an EU member and I am travelling with her neither passport does not need to be stamped leaving the UK, maybe I read wrong.

[GandJP]

You said you are intending to stay less than the 90 day allowance so I cant seen if it matters if your passport gets stamped or not, I expect Derek will know about having an Irish wife making a difference or not. 

[webby1]

If there's a chance you may be over 90 days then I would take marriage certificate and any other proof.

My Irish wife would not change her name (and why should she).So as well as certificate I also bring various bills and insurance certificates showing we live together.Also copies of the EU directive 2204 38 EC which is the most relevant document.I can't attach a PDF but google should find it.

I'd be interested if any other members have used this EU spouse directive to overstay their 90 days

[Derek Uzzell]

15 hours ago, GandJP said:

...Yes you will need a CritAire sticker whatever your van...

It may be nit-picking , but there is no NEED for a Crit'Air sticker when driving in France UNLESS one enters a French clean-air zone where displaying a Crit'Air sticker is mandatory.

I bought a Crit'Air sticker for my motorhome and for my car, but in both cases it was on a 'just in case' basis and I had no intention of venturing into a French clean-air zone.

[teccer1234]

 

Just now, Derek Uzzell said:

It may be nit-picking , but there is no NEED for a Crit'Air sticker when driving in France UNLESS one enters a French clean-air zone where displaying a Crit'Air sticker is mandatory.

I bought a Crit'Air sticker for my motorhome and for my car, but in both cases it was on a 'just in case' basis and I had no intention of venturing into a French clean-air zone.

same as me Derek, I applied on the basis of just in case but don't intend entering a clean air zone, Rouen was my only problem but until June 2024 I'm still allowed through, and with a class 4 sticker it's a waste of time anyway

[teccer1234]

18 minutes ago, webby1 said:

If there's a chance you may be over 90 days then I would take marriage certificate and any other proof.

My Irish wife would not change her name (and why should she).So as well as certificate I also bring various bills and insurance certificates showing we live together.Also copies of the EU directive 2204 38 EC which is the most relevant document.I can't attach a PDF but google should find it.

I'd be interested if any other members have used this EU spouse directive to overstay their 90 days

we've thought about it but it seems so much hassel that we've decided to just do the 90 day allowance.

yes we will take our marrage certificate and just in case we decide different

[colin]

It's my guess that you will have passport stamped (let us know), the reason being you only get over 90days when with your wife, if you aren't accompanied by her you are limited.

[Brian Kirby]

12 hours ago, teccer1234 said:

I understood that if the wife is an EU member and I am travelling with her neither passport does not need to be stamped leaving the UK, maybe I read wrong.

I think what you are looking for may be in Directive 2004/38/EC.  It is quite complex, but the operative section appears to be this:

"CHAPTER I

General provisions

Article 1"

which states:

"Subject

This Directive lays down:

(a) the conditions governing the exercise of the right of free movement and residence within the territory of the Member States by Union citizens and their family members;

(b) the right of permanent residence in the territory of the Member States for Union citizens and their family members;

(c) the limits placed on the rights set out in (a) and (b) on grounds of public policy, public security or public health.

Article 2

Definitions

For the purposes of this Directive:

1) "Union citizen" means any person having the nationality of a Member State;

2) "Family member" means:

(a) the spouse;

(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has contracted a registered partnership, on the basis of the legislation of a Member State, if the legislation of the host Member State treats registered partnerships as equivalent to marriage and in accordance with the conditions laid down in the relevant legislation of the host Member State;

(c) the direct descendants who are under the age of 21 or are dependants and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);

(d) the dependent direct relatives in the ascending line and those of the spouse or partner as defined in point (b);

3) "Host Member State" means the Member State to which a Union citizen moves in order to exercise his/her right of free movement and residence.

Article 3

Beneficiaries

1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2 who accompany or join them.

2. Without prejudice to any right to free movement and residence the persons concerned may have in their own right, the host Member State shall, in accordance with its national legislation, facilitate entry and residence for the following persons:

(a) any other family members, irrespective of their nationality, not falling under the definition in point 2 of Article 2 who, in the country from which they have come, are dependants or members of the household of the Union citizen having the primary right of residence, or where serious health grounds strictly require the personal care of the family member by the Union citizen;

(b) the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested. The host Member State shall undertake an extensive examination of the personal circumstances and shall justify any denial of entry or residence to these people."

However, this is a ley understanding of the Directive, so it would be wise to at least pose the question to the UK embassy of the country through which you will enter, and subsequently leave, the EU - which I assume will be France. 

My reading of the directive is that for so long as you are accompanying your wife, with the proviso that you can prove your relationship to her, and that she enters and leaves the EU as an Irish (and therefore EU) citizen (as confirmed by her passport) you are not subject to the 90 days in180 days rule, and are also entitled to the same rights of residence in an EU state.  But, as above, that is my reading.

Be aware that Spain also has some clean air zones, for the purpose of which French Crit'Air vignettes are accepted as evidence of compliance or non-compliance.

[MikeF]

The issue of Irish passport holder traveling with a non EU spouse is interesting and being in this position myself, can offer the following examples. 

Via the tunnel, no stamp, it helped that my wife being a fluent French speaker, convinced the passport control no stamp was needed. 

Via Santander, passport stamped. Despite a lengthy discussion with passport control officer we had the following options, stamp and enter Spain, or back on the ferry.

Returning after 90 days via the tunnel with and without a stamped passport, no issues. 

I suggest that when exceeding the 90 days under these circumstances, that some evidence that you were traveling consistently with your EU spouse, would be very useful if problems were encountered leaving the EU or re entering within 90 days.

The Directive that Brian posted is a 'directive' not a law, that member states may interpret as they wish. 

The serious flaw, as I see it, is that there is no recorded 'link' on entering and leaving the EU that an EU passport holder was traveling with a UK passport holder.

Mike

[Brian Kirby]

13 hours ago, teccer1234 said:

I understood that if the wife is an EU member and I am travelling with her neither passport does not need to be stamped leaving the UK, maybe I read wrong.

At the risk of further nit-picking 🙂 your passport is actually stamped as you enter France, and not as you leave the UK. 

Your passport is checked on UK soil at the UK border checkpoint, but not stamped until you pass the French border checkpoint, when you have technically entered France, albeit you have not yet physically left the UK.  The same is true in reverse when you leave France. 

Your (French) EU entry stamp (the first important one) signifies the day on which you enter the Schengen zone.  The EU exit stamp (which is the second important one) will be applied on French soil at the French border checkpoint immediately before you re-enter the UK (at the UK border checkpoint in France).

Both entry/exit stamps signify the days on which you entered/left Schengen, and both days count towards the 90 days allowance.

Technically, while you drive from the UK border controls to the French border controls you enter "no-man's land", and again as you drive from the French border controls to the UK border controls on the other side of the Channel.

I believe that when entering/leaving Schengen, because you are in effect travelling in Schengen on your wife's passport, you should probably use the "EU nationals" lanes.  However, as above, it would be wise to obtain clarification on this point.

[laimeduck]

 On the subject of Schengen paperwork ....I am possibly visiting Bosnia and Serbia in September, neither of whom are in the Schengen area. Does that mean I will get my passport stamped at the Croatian border to indicate I have left Schengen? Similarly on my return through Croatia?

Jeremy

Edited August 8, 2023 by laimeduck

[Brian Kirby]

1 hour ago, laimeduck said:

 On the subject of Schengen paperwork ....I am possibly visiting Bosnia and Serbia in September, neither of whom are in the Schengen area. Does that mean I will get my passport stamped at the Croatian border to indicate I have left Schengen? Similarly on my return through Croatia?

Jeremy

Yes - unless you want time spent in Bosnia and Serbia to count against your 90 Schengen days.  There is one caution with this, which is that I gather some of the Schengen border crossings, especially those not much used by "third country" (i.e. UK 🙂) wallahs, are not reliable at passport stamping in or out, so it may be better to avoid minor crossings in favour of the more major ones.

[teccer1234]

On 08/08/2023 at 12:06, Brian Kirby said:

I believe that when entering/leaving Schengen, because you are in effect travelling in Schengen on your wife's passport, you should probably use the "EU nationals" lanes.  However, as above, it would be wise to obtain clarification on this point.

thanks, I've just been in contact with the tunnel ," my wife has an irish /eu passport, I have an english passport, can I go through the eu checkout at the tunnel to leave the uk and the same as return in Calais?"   and got the reply " I can confirm you would be able to use either lane at border controls if you have a mix of EU and GB passport holders in the vehicle."

[TRIGGER]

We went to Portugal via France and Spain this year took all sorts of food stuff fresh and frozen ,no problem with Officialdom anywhere, our passports were stamped  , but don't see why a stamp in a Passport would be a problem to any one ?, passport stamped out of GB and again back in .

[Brian Kirby]

16 hours ago, teccer1234 said:

thanks, I've just been in contact with the tunnel ," my wife has an irish /eu passport, I have an english passport, can I go through the eu checkout at the tunnel to leave the uk and the same as return in Calais?"   and got the reply " I can confirm you would be able to use either lane at border controls if you have a mix of EU and GB passport holders in the vehicle."

Excellent!  🙂  Thanks for the confirmation.

[Brian Kirby]

14 hours ago, TRIGGER said:

We went to Portugal via France and Spain this year took all sorts of food stuff fresh and frozen ,no problem with Officialdom anywhere, our passports were stamped  , but don't see why a stamp in a Passport would be a problem to any one ?, passport stamped out of GB and again back in .

I don't think anyone was claiming that the stamp is a general problem.  Perhaps refer back to the original post for the particular context of teccr1234's actual question?

[teccer1234]

30 minutes ago, Brian Kirby said:

I don't think anyone was claiming that the stamp is a general problem.  Perhaps refer back to the original post for the particular context of teccr1234's actual question?

Hi Brian, one reason why I would prefer not to have a stamp is because I'm anti Br++++ and it's the only way I can say to them is ☝️, plus we might even decide to stay longer and a stamp might cause problems on returning

[laimeduck]

On 08/08/2023 at 14:01, Brian Kirby said:

Yes - unless you want time spent in Bosnia and Serbia to count against your 90 Schengen days.  There is one caution with this, which is that I gather some of the Schengen border crossings, especially those not much used by "third country" (i.e. UK 🙂) wallahs, are not reliable at passport stamping in or out, so it may be better to avoid minor crossings in favour of the more major ones.

I was simply interested as it will help preserve our 90 days if we are out of Schengen for a few days. Not that it matters as we don't go for 90 days anyway but I would have done it to try it!  It looks like we may have to re-think Slovenia anyway as the floods have done far more damage to infrastructure than we realised and I doubt they want wandering Brits clogging their efforts, so Bosnia and Serbia may now be no-nos for this year. 

[Brian Kirby]

22 hours ago, teccer1234 said:

Hi Brian, one reason why I would prefer not to have a stamp is because I'm anti Br++++ and it's the only way I can say to them is ☝️, plus we might even decide to stay longer and a stamp might cause problems on returning

If you look back to the directive extract I copied and pasted above, I think you will see that providing you are travelling with your Irish wife (i.e. an EU citizen) and she it travelling on her Irish passport, not only should your passport not require stamping when you enter Schengen, but you are are also exempt from the 90 days in 180 days Schengen rule, and can further benefit from her full entitlement to reside. 

The operative sections appear to be Article 1 (a), Article 2 (a), and Article 3 1. and 2. (b), noting that the latter appears to place the onus on the "host state" to show why you should not be eligible for the right granted in Article 1 (a).  That is to say you don't have to prove you entitlement to that right, i.e. "the right of free movement and residence within the territory of the Member States by Union citizens and their family members." (my underlining).

Accepting Mike F's point above regarding the legal status of the Directive, it seems it would take some stretch of credibility to  interpret it as allowing a "host state" to summarily exclude the spouse of an EU citizen from enjoying the same rights of entry and residence as the EU citizen themself enjoys.

Since it also appears from Mike F's post that French border guards have a working understanding of this Directive and did not insist on stamping his passport under similar circumstances to yours, enter Schengen through Calais  (ferry) / Coquelles (tunnel), and drive through France to Spain where their are no checks at the border in preference to entering Spain directly via Bilbao or Santander.

There can be no guarantee that you will not encounter a "rookie" border guard at any Schengen Channel port, but those with the highest volume of traffic seem the most likely to be familiar with the EU citizen / UK spouse issue.

 

So, for you, second home on the "Costas" and ✌️ to Be++++??  😄

[webby1]

I think the reason for stamping the non EU citizen passport is to keep a check on your movements.You could enter with your spouse and not get a stamp.....but then you are free to separate and you can leave whenever you like as there is no stamp in you passport to show your entry date.Whereas with a stamp once over 90 days you have to leave with your spouse to avoid any problems.

As I said earlier my passport was stamped on our last 90 day trip and I have kept all the proof/boarding cards to show that we actually travelled together. Otherwise they could say I made that trip on my own and this second 90 day trip takes me over the 90/180 even when with her (on reflection maybe this is not a problem)

[Brian Kirby]

52 minutes ago, webby1 said:

I think the reason for stamping the non EU citizen passport is to keep a check on your movements.You could enter with your spouse and not get a stamp.....but then you are free to separate and you can leave whenever you like as there is no stamp in you passport to show your entry date.  Whereas with a stamp once over 90 days you have to leave with your spouse to avoid any problems.  ............................................

But you'd then have to explain how and where you'd entered the Schengen area from UK without your passport being stamped.  You only have these entitlements while in the company of an EU spouse (or direct family member), not when entering solo.  No spouse, no entitlement!  No passport entry stamp, the automatic presumption would be that you'd actually entered Schengen before 1/2/2020.  Now that would take a bit of explaining away!!  😉