Brian Kirby Posted October 1, 2023 Author Share Posted October 1, 2023 3 hours ago, Albertslad said: Are these systems being “normalised” as part of the rush towards driverless vehicles? Albertslad They are being normalised through the New Car Assessment Programmes (NCAP), on the ground that they reduce accidents, and so reduce resulting deaths and injuries. This now applies to all new cars, light vans, commercial vehicles, and even buses. Whether this is a step towards driverless vehicles I don't know, but it does involve the addition of a number of standardised automated functions, most, if not all, of which are activated as soon as the ignition is turned on so, if drivers don't like them, they have to be turned off manually, but re-set back to "on" as soon as the ignition is turned off. It really doesn't matter what make or model of car is concerned, because they are all getting them. Do a "Google" search on "autonomous emergency braking", "sudden automatic braking", "AEB systems", or similar combinations of search terms. More detail in this "Wiki"; https://tinyurl.com/y6qntpcy I'm not against them (except "lane assist" 😞) they are a generally good idea, intended to reduce road deaths and injuries, and it seems that when they work as intended, the results are impressive. However, it also seems they are all prone to producing occasional "false positives", where the system identifies a completely non-existent hazard, as described in my OP, and then summarily slams on full emergency braking for no reason. The above web searches should reveal a number of similar incidents being described, affecting a number of different car makes and models. The greatest danger is that with no apparent reason for the emergency braking any following drivers cannot see the (non-existent) cause, so has no chance of anticipating that the vehicle front suddenly stopping dead, and is thus more likely to be unable to react in time - unless, of course, their car is similarly equipped - and even then I wonder. Clearly, as above, these false positives (or "phantom hazards") do not continually arise (otherwise we'd all know about them!), and do not relate to particular makes or models, and seem to afflict only individual vehicles, sometimes repeatedly, sometimes under particular circumstances (such as, for instance, narrow, winding country roads with overgrowing vegetation) which, once the driver has identified a probable cause, permit some anticipation of a "brake attack". Another objection is that with a manual transmission the violent stop also involves a very hard stall of the engine, as there is insufficient time to jump on the clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 1, 2023 Author Share Posted October 1, 2023 Dashcams are purely for recording incidents while driving for evidential purposes, be that bad driving or accidents, for use in any subsequent prosecution. Regarding AEB systems, they have been around for quite some time, gradually spreading across makes and models since the late 1990's, but seeming to "take off" in the 2010's - so be careful what you buy! 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 On 28/09/2023 at 09:25, david lloyd said: As for the development of driverless vehicles, well……… We won't see them in UK They depend on sensors in the road, clear signposts and road markings etc - all the basics we don't have Sometimes my satnav tells me I am over the speed limit, so I play the dashcam footage to see where I missed the sign. Often I was not over the limit bedcause the limit has been changed. Often the sign is obscured, turned the wrong way round, or in the case of driving into Bridlington from Scarborough last week, the nearside 30 sign was missing altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HymerVan Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 23 hours ago, HymerVan said: A word in favour of autonomous braking systems. I have a 2018 Audi Q2 (think golf sized SUV). In 2000 I was driving in a relatively narrow urban street with cars parked on each side and quite slowly perhaps 20-25 mph. Suddenly the car performed a full blown emergency stop, quickly enough to prevent striking a car door and its passengers leg opened directly into my path on the nearside. I initially rationalised that I had performed a remarkably quick stop by reflex action but soon realised that the car had begun to brake before I joined in. So the system worked and saved the day. The "domestic" between the driver and his passenger was pretty dramatic though. Sorry should have read 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 8 minutes ago, HymerVan said: Sorry should have read 2021 Corrected! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 We also have a vehicle fitted with the auto emergency braking system, a Kia. It has so far presented no real problems with one exception which was whilst negotiating a roundabout. The roundabout is on a moderately fast (50mph) dual carriageway which was at the time completely empty and I probably approached it a bit 'enthusiastically'. This particular roundabout has three exits/ entrances one right angle left one right angle right and the middle one which I was approaching on. As I turned around the roundabout to my right the brakes suddenly applied mid turn just after the left entrance. I can only sumise that the solid hedgerow bordering the kerb of the roundabout was picked up as a stationary object and applied the brakes as there was no other obstruction. So yes it can be a little disconcerting. Bas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Hi This is progress I am afraid , they will get better Change sometimes can be difficult and sometimes as pointed out ,dangerous.One would need a co driver now, to work the infotainment screen provided with all the information to control the modules that operate all the systems. I think as much as a distraction as a mobile phone , but then it is geared to mimic your mobile phone itself. Yes a lot does need re engineering for safety alone that it is supposed to apply. At least we can turn it off, (sometime on some models with difficulty, especially if driving, simple one switch needed) and drive as normal . We must also acknowledge that it does also work and indeed has saved lives As for the rear end issues , way to many drive to close to the car in front , another plus if it is turned on it will not let you drive so close to the car in front of you . Things are a changing , be careful out there but do enjoy , you have more experience gained with years of driving Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 I don't believe you are correct that it won't allow you to drive too close to the car in front, not in my experience anyway. The reactive cruise control will do that but the auto braking system is looking at how quick you are approaching an object ahead. The system operates, i.e. brakes,if it works out that at the closing speed you have to an obstruction will result in a collision. I can't say that I have any reason to dislike the system but I do agree that it can be off putting when you first experience it, mind you I can say the same for my first 'proper' experience of ABS and ESP but I am quite used to those now. Bas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) Hi, Well on the Vag range it won't let you drive up too close to the car in front and in fact keeps you back at a set distance This you can of course pick yourself,in the infotainment screen Regards Edited October 3, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Clearly the systems differ from maker to maker. Bas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Hi Of course , this is progress, just as it was years ago between manufactures of different vehicles. If they were all the same it would be great and much safer , Sadly it's not the case and they are far from been harmonised at the moment Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 Spare a thought for the caravaners who bought a new Volvo which, when hitched to a caravan, won’t allow it to reverse! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) I am and have been driving in the Alps for the last few weeks and this system would have caused me all sorts of problems. My technique in my tortoise like Benimar is that when stuck behind a slow vehicle I monitor the satnag to see when a straight bit of road is coming up. I then accelerate towards the back of the slow vehicle and if the road is clear, pull our and overtake. If its not safe I reduce speed and stay behind. It's all a question of judgement and timing. (I do the same in the UK in my 2CV) If my vehicle independently applied brakes because I was "in it's opinion" too close that could be very dangerous. No thanks, I'll make my own decisions! Jeremy Edited October 3, 2023 by laimeduck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 3, 2023 Share Posted October 3, 2023 (edited) Hi This is progress like it or hate it ,You can make your own decisions you can turn it off (with difficulty on some vehicles , every time you turn back on the ignition, and please not while driving , if you do not it is then as dangerous as a mobile phone in my opinion , unless you have a co driver operating the infotainment screen for you lol ) Yes the system has many faults ,for now so quite easy not trust or like it But it has some good ones as well , if one wants to really see them. Works quite well on Motorways , and if all cars/vehicles were fitted with same it really may reach it's major safety goal. Regarding the Volvo (XC90) with Caravan or trailer RAB and CTA should be deactivated automatically if correctly mapped when a trailer, bicycle rack or similar is connected to the tow bar connector of the vehicle. On the XC60 Just turn off the BLISS or have it mapped or configured to accept objects when connected to tow bar electrics On some of our narrow roads ,with extended foliage, poor lines and signage etc' it may be just wise to turn it off, but then again this is your choice . You remain in charge of your vehicle at all times Edited October 3, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 Cannot be turned off on the Kia. Bas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 (edited) Hi On nearly all models you can of course , The Kia Cerato 2019 it isn't an issue? The driver can do it This warning light (https://www.kia.com/content/dam/kia2/in/en/content/ev6-manual/res/images/OCV041467L.png) will illuminate on the cluster.You remain in charge of your vehicle at all times Edited October 4, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 4, 2023 Author Share Posted October 4, 2023 (edited) 19 hours ago, onecal said: Hi ................................... You remain in charge of your vehicle at all times Except when the AEB system identifies a phantom risk, and applies emergency braking to avoid the non existent hazard. Then, you have no control whatever, except that you can still steer - 'though whether one can effectively steer while being projected towards the steering wheel at 30 (in my case) MPH is somewhat debatable. 🙂 One's problem then is getting the component that caused the false positive signal to which the AEB responded either re-calibrated or replaced. The garage had the car for an hour or so, during which time they connected it to the manufacturers diagnostics and test drove it for about 19 miles. The diagnostics found 0 fault codes, and the test drive revealed no identifiable driving peculiarities = there is no fault that we can identify, so nothing that we can fix. Their suggestion was to re-enable the AEB and see if the problem repeats. I can see their point. What, exactly, is it that they should repair or replace? (The most likely candidate seems to me the front radar sensor either spontaneously malfunctioning, or something like a bee or a beetle flew very close to the sensor and so "looked" much larger than it was.) Whatever, I have lowered the system sensitivity in the hope this will prevent repeats. Apparently, the AEB system doesn't log actuations, and doesn't record which component initiated the emergency braking. In its own terms, there was a risk of collision, which it averted, so it correctly did its job = no fault to store. This is where I think the real problem lies. The AEB should log all its actuations, in terms of time, date, and signal origination. This data should be checked during all services and, on demand, following suspected malfunctions. Then garages could ask the driver what had actually happened, to identify false positives, and would know which component was implicated. Manufacturers should incorporate test programs into their diagnostics to identify the origin of the AEB actuation signal, and garages need test equipment for the hardware. Then, if a radar detector proves faulty it can be replaced and the manufacturer can assess its reliability. If the software is faulty, it can be re-installed and the manufacturer can decide if an update is required, and then apply that to all affected vehicles. At present, no-one is learning anything about system reliability, and it seems no-one can determine what to fix when it goes wrong. Although it should be obvious that a performance monitoring facility is required, it seems nothing is provided. It seems the main responsibility for this lies with (in Europe including UK) Euro ENCAP, who did not specify it as a part of their required AEB systems. To gain a 5 star Euro ENCAP safety rating for their cars, manufacturers just need to fit an AEB system. As safety sells cars, 5 star ratings are highly desirable, so manufacturers are installing them willy-nilly, but apparently not the support systems necessary to keep them updated, reliable, and readily repairable, and no-one else seems to be insisting that they should. This is an extract from a document produced in 2022 by the Transport Research Laboratory (TRL): "Despite having the most comprehensive set of tests for true positive performance, Euro NCAP do not have any tests for false activation. It is understood that this is based on their position as an organisation aiming only to provide consumer information with the intention of promoting safety. The view was that true positive situations occur only very rarely, so most drivers do not experience them. Thus, consumer information is needed to inform drivers of how well their car will perform in those rare situations. However, if false positives become frequent, then it is warnings that will be most frequent, and the driver will quickly become aware of them. Drivers do not like excessive warnings and in a competitive market will turn away from those systems. This means that the market should be self-governing and that there is no need for them to correct a market failure by providing independent information." So, there you go! Job done! 😄 Edited October 4, 2023 by Brian Kirby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 (edited) Hi Brian, i would consider bringing your car to another dealer with a proper way of calibrating your radar sensor and module.The slightest out of alignment causes a lot of issues and needs special screen to re calibrate I think there just may be an update available on some modules Most AEB systems can be turned off by the driver through the infotainment system Sadly it has to be re done every time you re start your car. I do believe this is possible on all Vag based vehicles as it is on the new the ID 3/4/5? Therefore leaving the driver in control , in an accident if turned off it may be another issue in court. Not a fan myself , but this is the way things are going I am afraid again the driver should always be in control and it's his/hers decision to use it or not by turning it on or off. Regards Edited October 4, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 This has been a very useful thread for me, so thanks Brian. When I eventually have to consign my ancient Saab 900 to the crusher, I will endeavour to research a replacement vehicle that does not have all these gizmos. Probably have to be a classic car over 40 years old! A chap down the road has a Model T Ford....I wonder if he'll sell? ..... But hang on a minute....my trusty 2CV is 40 in 3 years time ..... hmmmmm! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 4, 2023 Author Share Posted October 4, 2023 I gather they were first introduced on premium models in the 1990's, and became more common during the 2010's. It seems to have been the Euro NCAP 5star safety rating that persuaded manufacturers they had to install them more widely, with a view to all new vehicles eventually being so equipped. The idea is excellent, and is already claimed to have prevented many fatalities and serious injuries across Europe. The flaw is the false positives that current systems produce, and the difficulty in getting the fault fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 4, 2023 Share Posted October 4, 2023 Brian, Your fault should be easily fixed with the correct equipment and knowledge, the slightest out of alignment I have found can cause problems but easily fixed, So a re calibration may solve your vehicles problem as it does on many of the Vag range Is your car still under warranty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 5, 2023 Author Share Posted October 5, 2023 17 hours ago, onecal said: Brian,..................................... Is your car still under warranty? Yes, I've only had it three weeks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 Ah ok , Try to get them to recalibrate the ADAS, Sometime the slightest movement dips the radar camera to low (positioned in a bad place, open to knocks and debris) and I have had to deal with large speed bumps cause severe braking , If it was way out of alignment it would bring up an error on the instrument cluster (System not available) They may also need to do an update on the system. There will more than likely be no error if it is slightly dipped or off one side and working. If they are not able to adjust , go to someone with the knowledge and tools to deal with this issue . Reminds me of years ago when you buy a new car , we are doing the testing for all these manufacturing giants, at our cost, Hope this helps Brian and hopefully you will have better luck with your new car . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 5, 2023 Author Share Posted October 5, 2023 Thank you. I was looking yesterday, as until your previous post I hadn't realised these systems could be re-calibrated. I'd assumed once they'd left the factory they were "fire and forget"! Very useful info. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 Hi Brian , They are and so easy to knock out of alignment where they are positioned , A slight tap on the bumper can knock them off , it's going to be sometime before all the autonomous driving take over takes with any reasonable effect (yes it can be a very good safety feature) but when it does ,if ever , will it actually take the pleasure out of driving???. We will wait and see. Yes go the realignment and calibration route first and check for an update on your car .If you still don't like it and it's operation, then you can have it deleted (I do not recommend that here) but of course it can be done. Great post Brian to make others aware of the way times are a changing within the system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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