david lloyd Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 Back in December 2022 I had very sluggish starting in cold weather on the Pioneer Renoir we had only had for three months. A diagnostic test at Peugeot identified that the Yuasa Silver 5000 battery was only putting out 609cca instead of the rated 900cca and the recommendation was to replace the battery. New (same type) battery was ordered from Tayna and has performed well through the spring/summer although I wouldn’t say that cold starting was as I would have expected. Now the nights are colder it is back to very sluggish starting. The engine cranks very slowly and feels as if it is going to stop cranking but then at the last gasp fires up. The Yuasa battery is only nine months old and is kept in good condition. Peugeot service manager has advised they undergo the diagnostic test again but will need to rule out the battery again by testing it then putting it on charge overnight and testing again after that. If it proves to be the battery I do have a five year warranty so would hope to get a replacement. My concern is it is not the battery this time and internet searches throw up quite a few examples of the starter motor being the cause with a replacement overcoming the problem. Anyone have experience of this type of cold starting issue? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 Your first checks should be for voltage drops on the starter circuit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 5, 2023 Author Share Posted October 5, 2023 How is that done Colin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 Using a voltage meter you can determine the voltage drop by contacting across(say) the neg pole of battery and engine/gearbox whilst cranking engine, or the pos pole and starter terminal. This will determine if any cables or connections are causing a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 5, 2023 Author Share Posted October 5, 2023 Thanks Colin will try that. At the last diagnostic test they had tested and inspected the earth cabkes and all were ok. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 The x244 battery negative cable is connected to chassis via a crimped flag terminal below the battery, and forward of the RH engine mounting. The cable then continues under the intercooler and radiator, to terminate on an extended starter motor stud at the clutch housing. Corrosion can occur inside the flag terminal. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 5, 2023 Author Share Posted October 5, 2023 Did as advised by. Colin and the voltage drop (negative battery pole to engine) is 0.05v so seems to be within normal parameters. As I mentioned, the earth cables have been tested and inspected and are fine. I have booked it in again for another diagnostic test, particularly to check the starter motor. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 5, 2023 Share Posted October 5, 2023 Hi Yes that would be prudent to have the starter itself checked also you might need to have your fuel pressure checked and injectors for leakage, if you have checked your electrical out fully and not missed something Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowy Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 I had the same problem on my car where it was really sluggish to turn engine over when cold.. I changed the battery to no avail. Bit the bullet and changed starter motor, problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 Update. The MH has been back to Peugeot for another diagnostic check. This time they wanted it overnight so that they could check the condition of the (10 month old) replacement battery from last visit. Then put it on charge overnight and check again. Their verdict was that the battery tested ‘good’ although only charged up to 90%. They couldn’t replicate the difficulty starting so advised I just keep an eye on it for a while - despite my suggesting they move onto other possible causes. So no real explanation from them but they did waive any charges for the further tests. Left it beneath the carport on the driveway from last Tuesday to this morning without hookup. Started out by checking the battery voltage. The panel read SB 12.5v the LB 12.6v although the solar regulator indicated 12.9v for LB - there is no connection to the SB. Under the bonnet I was surprised to find the SB reading 14.2v on the multimeter! So much so I tried it a few times with the same results. Now tried to start engine which sounded like a flat battery really slow to crank over but did start. With the engine running the voltages (with a meter) were - LB steady 14.2v. SB jumped to 15.6/7v but settled around 14.4 to 14.7v. I am a little wary now of taking it back again to Peugeot so have booked it in later this week at a really well respected auto electricians who I know will dig deeper than the battery to find the underlying cause. My money would be on the starter motor/solenoid. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) Hi Why didn't they just replace the starter complete , just to work from a baseline ? Did they do a fuel pressure test ? Regards Edited October 23, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 No they were just fixated on the battery for some reason. I mentioned other possibilities like starter motor, injectors but they didn’t seem interested - too much lucrative work I suspect. Didn’t press the point any further as my confidence in them had fallen away and thought I would see what it’s like in a week and if still the same get the auto electricians on it. Davif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 David, Have you tried ruling out the engine to body ground strap by connecting a single jump lead cable from either the battery NEGATIVE directly to a clean metal component on the engine such as a lifting eye, or if the battery is inaccessible then the NEGATIVE jump start terminal under the bonnet to the engine? (NEGATIVE is emphasised to avoid mistakes!). Keith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 Yes tried that early on Keith but no different and the leads look in good condition. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) I am amazed they did not try a new starter for you, or battery if that's what they suspect and as they have ruled out all the electrical faults for you Even the most common one Keithl has referred to which causes so much trouble The leads may look in good condition, but are they ? They should have been tested . Strange they did not do a fuel pressure leakage test and were not interested as this can be an issue over a long standing period on quite a few and gives the impression as a lazy starter or battery sometimes. Maybe your right and look for a second opinion from someone to do another diagnostic check step by step from the start as it should be done, Checking all the wiring very carefully especially to the cam sensor for damage . Wish you the best in your adventure Keep us informed on the outcome may be a very simple repair. fingers crossed Regards Edited October 23, 2023 by onecal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 On 05/10/2023 at 11:12, david lloyd said: Now the nights are colder it is back to very sluggish starting. The engine cranks very slowly and feels as if it is going to stop cranking but then at the last gasp fires up. David's basic complaint is slow cranking speed, I have seen 150rpm quoted as a nominal cranking speed, but how do you measure it without diagnostic software? I sometimes think that my 2.8jtd (same basic engine) seems sluggish to start. Having thought about it, a non common rail engine can fire on the first compression stroke, which is my experience. On a common rail engine, it may take to 3 or 4 compression strokes before firing, this is because the ECU needs to determine the stroke for No.1 cylinder via the camshaft sensor. How many compressions strokes before firing wll depend on what position the engine last stopped. This delay can prolong the agony. Before making further alternative well intentioned suggestions, perhaps we should wait until David reports on the outcome of his visit to the auto electrician, of which I await the outcome with keen interest. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Hi My Suggestions are from experience and again I have also stated what may also cause slow starting. I am amazed at the lack of diagnostics reported back from the OP and I can well understand why he may wish to proceed to a good technician/mechanic. To overlook basic well known problems where you don't even need a code to proceed is amazing. Yes by all means a good diagnostic scan is always a good baseline to start with, but the OP is giving them suggestions and they are not interested as he says himself It really is strange, bit of adventure. As previously stated I wish him the best and really hope he keeps us informed on the outcome Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 27, 2023 Author Share Posted October 27, 2023 A further update. The auto electricians had the MH for much of today and I had explained the past history and information. The technician initially said he couldn’t really fault it but did divulge two possible causes for the poor starting in cold weather conditions. The battery again tested good but he felt the starter motor was pulling more power than he would have expected yet remained within acceptable limits. I had mentioned that the glow plug light only remains on for a couple of seconds, even in cold conditions. His findings showed that when the ignition was switched on there was no significant current draw which he would expect to see with the glow plug operating. There was also some smoke on startup that was attributed to unburnt fuel. So, no definitive answer but his working hypothesis was that the glow plugs are not working and, in turn, this is placing an extra burden on the starter motor when the engine is really cold. His advice was to have whoever does my mechanicals fit new glow plugs as a first step, see if that cures the problem and, if necessary, then replace the starter. Once again, this company also declined payment for the diagnostic work undertaken as they had not 100% solved the issue. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 Question - Does your ambient temperature sensor on the dash read correctly? If not then this may affect the glow plug operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 27, 2023 Author Share Posted October 27, 2023 Hmmm, does my 2006 (X244) Boxer have an ambient temperature display on the dash? I don’t recall that it does Keith. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 OK. Well if it doesn't then it must have a sensor connected to the engine ECU so it knows when to use the glow plugs. You may need a scanner to read it then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 27, 2023 Author Share Posted October 27, 2023 Keith, the technician did concede that it was difficult to tell if the fairly warm conditions at the moment would mean the glow plugs to operate but he also went on to say that in any event he would have expected to see some sort of current drop as soon as the ignition is switched on. But yes I guess if there is a temperature sensor having some sort of input on whether the glow plugs come on then it’s another possible cause. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 The 2.8jtd does not use glow plugs. Most common cold start device is a flame starter. This consists of a single glow plug/injector inserted into the input manifold. The brief, 0.5 second, operation of the glow plug light is a self check function only. For more information and short video see here. The "glow plug" and fuel solenoid valve are mounted on the inlet manifold, and the relay for the glow plug ia located under the "hood" at the rear of the engine bay. The 2.8jtd is reported as being capable of starting without this device down to minus 10C. I have not tried this, and the flame starter is described in Fiat eLearn as operating below 0C. (The alternative cold starting device is the "Thermal Starter" which is a 12V electric heater in the airflow at the input to the inlet manifold.) Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanb Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 30 minutes ago, david lloyd said: Hmmm, does my 2006 (X244) Boxer have an ambient temperature display on the dash? I don’t recall that it does Keith. David No, it will use the manifold pressure/temperature sensor on the inlet manifold. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 7 minutes ago, Alanb said: The 2.8jtd does not use glow plugs. Most common cold start device is a flame starter. This consists of a single glow plug/injector inserted into the input manifold. The brief, 0.5 second, operation of the glow plug light is a self check function only. OMG! I never realised how old school these engines were! Makes me realise even more now why I have never worked on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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