Fogstar 460AH Lithium Update

[veletron]

Back in October, I upgraded my 2xSterling 100AH lithiums to a 460AH lithium from Fogstar. I thought I would provide an update.

Basically the battery is a game changer! I run it with a sterling Power 70A B2B which puts 60A into the battery when driving (the 70A is its max current draw), I also bought a lithium compatible 1.8KW/50A Inverter/charger from AliExpress for £135 (mainly because it fits under the passenger seat and neither the Victron nor Renogy chargers would (the £135 cost was nice too!). Off the inverter I run a kettle, toaster and hairdrier. On the roof is a lowly 200W of solar because I have no space for more.

I fitted all this back in October.

Back to the battery, I am an electronics/firmware/software engineer (medical electronics), and I quite often work from the van. This factoid was the main driver for the upgrade as it needs to run a workstation grade laptop that will draw about 8A @12V under load. Currently 5 days in to the latest WfV sesh with 161AH drawn.

Expensive, yes, but dropping in price fast. This time next year, such a capacity will be £500 rather than the £1200 that I paid - there is obviously also the additonal expense of lithium compatible on the move, solar and mains chargers to consider.

I rarely use sites and if I do I never get a hookup for me motorhoming is about freedom and going on holiday to a 'council estate' of many other vans is just not my bag!

My next van is likely to be a self build and aside from heating the domestic side will be 100% electric utilising 4 off 610AH batteries for 31KW/H of capacity on a 48V system.

Anyway unlike my lead acids which always disapointed with their performance, lithium and in particular the fogstar has impressed.

Karen

 

[arthur49]

Interesting Karen thank you.

You and I bought 2 x 100Ah Sterling lithiums at the same time.  In December 2022 Daly decided to update the firmware.  That wrecked the bluetooth dongle and I know from Sterling that I was not alone.  (I understand the 12v supply to dongle was lost?)

I had a huge struggle with Sterling to honour their warranty.  My argument was I bought batteries with BT functionality.  Their response was the batteries still work, they charge and discharge.  Eventually they relented and replaced the batteries but it left a bitter taste and I'm afraid I now avoid Sterling products!

Having received the batteries I sold them, unused and decided to go for 2 x 100Ah SOK batteries because:-

- good reviews on build quality and spec

- they have a lid so BMS/cells could be replaced/repaired if required

https://www.europe.sokbattery.com/shop

So far they have been excellent - I paid £1100 for them a year ago, they're now £800!

Fogstar get excellent reviews as well.  Good luck .........

[veletron]

Yes, I had exactly the same issue with my Sterling Lithiums, but I never used the app anyway as I had a more reliable AH counter. I work from the van fairly often and drained the sterlings dry a couple times, the 460AH fogstar allows more time stationary or without hookup.

I do like the Sterling 70A B2B thus far.

Incidentally, I found a cable on ebay that allows you to charge LB's from mode 2 EV chargers. Might get me one of those!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325614445216

[John52]

All sounds a bit over-complicated to me.  I just have 4x019 (100ah) starter batteries (2 under each seat) connected in series to the main battery via a 200a relay (activated by the ignition switch) and 25mm2 cable.  I had the same system with a voltage sensing relay (no good with the smart alternator on the X2/90) on my X2/50 for 11 years. Not perfect but what is?  At least its still working fine after a total of 14 years. Depends on how much power you need though?

People who sell B2B chargers say I need a B2B charger, but 'never ask a barber if you need a haircut' (Warren Buffet)

I don't have an electric kettle though.  Just 2 gas rings on Camping Gaz 907 cylinders I fill from 19kg flogas cylinders (Camping Gaz exchange prices are absurd, and the butane in them didn't burn as well and clogged the jets)  But I do have a bedwarmer that draws about 18amp, 5 amp roof fan, Chinese diesel heater, TV, DVD, & internet. 

Fiat say you shouldn't fit secondary batteries more than 20% the size of the main battery, which would be a useable capacity of about 10ah, clearly absurd for a vehicle they market as a base for motorhomes, I suspect just an attempt to evade liability for the extra wear on the alternator.  But I do try to save unnecessary wear on the alternator by using a gas ring kettle as I drink a lot of tea.

I'm a bit wary of lithium batteries after all the fires... (Moderated)

Always interesting to see how other people have done it though, so many thanks for posting. 

I also don't use sites because I don't want to be so restricted in where and when I can go.

[Derek Uzzell]

47 minutes ago, John52 said:

"...Fiat say you shouldn't fit secondary batteries more than 20% the size of the main battery, which would be a useable capacity of about 10ah, clearly absurd for a vehicle they market as a base for motorhomes..."

Where does that Fiat advice come from, please?

I can imagine (with some effort) that Fiat MIGHT recommend that a secondary battery (ie. a 'leisure-battery') should have an Ah capacity of no more than 120% that of a Ducato's starter-battery, but (as you've said) the 20% figure would be absurd. 

Most motorhome converters building on a Ducato base will fit a leisure-battery with a capacity of at least 100Ah, and many converters will offer the option of having an identical second leisure-battery and provide a suitable dedicated storage space and cabling for it. So, if the standard Ducato starter-battery were assumed to have a capacity of 90Ah, it's commonplace for motorhome converters to provide new vehicles with at least 200Ah of leisure-batteries.

[John52]

1 hour ago, Derek Uzzell said:

Where does that Fiat advice come from, please?

Page 78 of  Fiat Ducato Converter's Guide (2017) which I have as a 9.6mb pdf file

The forum software won't allow me to attach the pdf file here

So I copy and paste a paragraph and have put the relevant sentence in bold

3:8 Auxiliary alternators and batteries
The installation of high power absorption electrical equipment (i.e. frequently used 
electric motors, or electric motors used less frequently but for long periods without the 
support of the engine, such as loading platforms for city use), or a large number of supplementary electrical utilities, could demand power levels that the normal vehicle system 
is not capable of supplying. In these cases supplementary batteries of suitable capacity 
must be installed.
The vehicle system is sized to supply the power requirements of standard equipment, all 
of which is provided with specific protection and connected with suitably sized cables.
Applications of supplementary equipment must also foresee adequate protection and 
must not overload the vehicle system.
If higher capacity batteries are installed, due to the higher current draw, make certain 
that a suitably oversized alternator is also installed. In no case should the increase in 
battery exceed 20% of the standard battery capacity, to prevent damage to any component of the system.
If it is necessary to make alterations to the system other than the ones described in this 
manual (for example, additional batteries in parallel), the works must be co-ordinated 
with FIAT CHRYSLER AUTOMOBILES S.p.A.

[Robinhood]

On 04/04/2024 at 06:55, John52 said:

I'm a bit wary of lithium batteries after all the fires (Moderated)

...generally, the reports of fires concern the use of Li-Ion or Li-pol batteries.

The majority of Lithium "leisure" batteries marketed are LifePO4 technology - very different and inherently much less prone to any such issues. (Even conventional lead-acid batteries have their issues).

[arthur49]

Safety of "lithium" batteries:-

I calmed my wife's concerns re LifePo4 batteries by showing her this (others are available!)

[arthur49]

15 hours ago, veletron said:

Yes, I had exactly the same issue with my Sterling Lithiums, but I never used the app anyway ......

I was adamant I wanted BT functionality because the batteries arrived new, with settings all over the place and I had to adjust them.

Then MikeF suggested better settings.

That experience made me dig my heels in with Ben at Sterling. 

(I don't trust the app for state of drain, I use a Victron shunt)

[John52]

As I recall the ones that caught fire were counterfeit

[joehendrix]

On 04/04/2024 at 13:56, John52 said:

As I recall the ones that caught fire were counterfeit (Moderated)

how do we know if we have a real one?

[arthur49]

1 hour ago, joehendrix said:

interesting read. how do we know if we have a real one?

The way I chose a LifePo4 battery was:-

- check reviews on YouTube: some do teardowns eg DC Guy so you can see the build quality

- buy from reputable company

- avoid Ebay 

Whilst I criticise Sterling above, it was not product quality that was my issue it was the after sales service

[Derek Uzzell]

16 hours ago, joehendrix said:

interesting read. how do we know if we have a real one?

Robinhood said above "The majority of Lithium "leisure" batteries marketed are LifePO4 technology".  

Advice on these links may help regarding LiFePO4 battery 'authenticity'

https://www.lifepo4-battery.com/News/how-to-identify-genuine-lifepo4-battery.html#

https://batteryfinds.com/how-to-stay-away-from-fake-lifepo4-battery/

and this link may reassure about the fire risk.

https://lithiumhub.com/lifepo4-batteries-what-they-are-and-why-theyre-the-best/

[Derek Uzzell]

Please can forum-members leave forum 'moderation' to the forum moderators.

I've copied the Out&AboutLive forums Code of Conduct thread to the top of the Motorhome Matters forum as a reminder of the Rules of Engagement.

I've also edited/deleted postings on this thread that I consider argumentative, deliberately confrontational or irrelevant. If those actions are disliked, complain to the forum Administrator.

[John52]

1 hour ago, Derek Uzzell said:

Please can forum-members leave forum 'moderation' to the forum moderators.

Thats a Good idea actually

Thats what I should have said instead of being drawn into an argument.

[Robinhood]

Talking of moderation......

It might be just me, but since people do attempt to search forum contents, would it be sensible to amend the title to read "Fogstar" rather than "Frogstar"?

Sorry, Karen (fond as I am of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"  😉)

(All references amended - Keithl)

[Robinhood]

Thanks, Keith.

[colin]

On 04/04/2024 at 08:06, Derek Uzzell said:

Where does that Fiat advice come from, please?

Fiat doesn't say that, it only applies to upgrades of the vehicle battery, not supplementary batteries

[John52]

10 hours ago, colin said:

Fiat doesn't say that, it only applies to upgrades of the vehicle battery, not supplementary batteries

Well you can see the bit of the Fiat Ducato Converter's Guide (2017) I got it from and make of that what you will.

Maybe I have mis read it, I'm not infallible

In any case, what difference does it make whether the increase is in the 'standard battery' or the batteries connected to it?

[Robinhood]

59 minutes ago, John52 said:

In any case, what difference does it make whether the increase is in the 'standard battery' or the batteries connected to it?

Existing wiring/fusing...

[John52]

1 minute ago, Robinhood said:

Existing wiring/fusing...

But the extra power is being drawn from the same place (existing battery terminals) anyway?

which are protected by fuses

In any case they mention a need for an oversized alternator to cope with the extra current draw

So what difference would it make whether the current is being drawn by a bigger standard battery or by secondary batteries?

I am not aware of any motorhome conversions with a bigger alternator. 

[John52]

Well I see part of my posts have gone, but are still there in other people's quotes

We have to check for ourselves as best we can.  The importance of this cannot be overstated - we have seen fatalities caused by counterfeit batteries. (Moderated)

[Robinhood]

I'm glad I've not let you anywhere near my 'van electrics.  😉

As Colin has said, I also interpret the 20% "ruling" to refer to the vehicle battery; the provision of additional auxiliary batteries is mentioned only "en passant" at the end (and effectively reinforces the advice that careful design and sizing will be required, preferably by a manner approved by Fiat) 

5 hours ago, John52 said:

But the extra power is being drawn from the same place (existing battery terminals) anyway?

which are protected by fuses

The original (base vehicle) wiring is sized thoughout the vehicle for normal demands, and it is the wiring that is protected by fuses. The whole gist of the passage is predicated on a potential requirement for additional power, potentially provided by a larger vehicle battery. There is a risk that that significant extra demand (and indeed, any extra charging demand caused by a larger battery) might exceed the wiring (and thus any fusing) capacity. At best, that will simply mean repetitively blown fuses, at worst there is a temptation to increase the fuse size and end up with wiring faults.

5 hours ago, John52 said:

In any case they mention a need for an oversized alternator to cope with the extra current draw

Indeed. It would make sense to ensure greater charging capacity for greater potential battery demand. The various alternators that can be specified are largely aligned with the +20% figure specified for the battery upgrade limit.

5 hours ago, John52 said:

So what difference would it make whether the current is being drawn by a bigger standard battery or by secondary batteries?

When installed properly, and in line with Fiat advice, the wiring for auxiliary battery(ies) will be almost entirely separate to that for the vehicle battery. No additional load on the input and output wiring of the latter, therefore no need to worry about wires/fuses or anything else. The auxiliary circuit requires appropriate design, though.

6 hours ago, John52 said:

I am not aware of any motorhome conversions with a bigger alternator. 

It's absolutely common practice to order vehicles for conversion with an uprated alternator (along with the converter's socket, etc.)

[Robinhood]

6 hours ago, John52 said:

Well I see part of my posts have gone, but are still there in other people's quotes

We have to check for ourselves as best we can.  The importance of this cannot be overstated - we have seen fatalities caused by counterfeit batteries. (Moderated)

I must admit that if I were a moderator here, you would now be banned!

Moderation isn't an easy job, and I don't always agree with moderator's decisions on the various forums I frequent, but the forums aren't mine, and I wouldn't envy any moderator their task, so I accept their decisions.

Regardless of whether I agree or not with a posters point of view, continuing to post the same content that has already been moderated away for reasons that have been explained is not something I, for one, find acceptable.

The mods have my support.

[John52]

But the batteries cannot draw more than the alternator can produce, and it has its own regulator to stop it overloading, so the wiring must be capable of that?

As I say, I am not aware of Ducato motorhomes with a bigger alternator than mine - which is the standard Bosch 180 amp.  Can you say which have them and do they have a bigger wiring loom to cope with it?