Brian Kirby Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Steady boys, or I'll have to start sending Christmas Cards! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 23, 2008 Author Share Posted February 23, 2008 I wish I had half the eloquence and computer grasp which these other gentlemen (gits) seem to have mastered. How do you get a quote in the white box? Anyway, back to the defective Fiat business, and in truth I'm slightly depressed about the whole thing. I walked into this with the kind of wide eyed innocence which should only blight the young (or stupid?) and have received a very severe spanking from Fiat, who are obviously experts at this kind of thing. However, perhaps the tale of Peter Davies from Dyfed (don't ask me where it is) will bring some sort of perspective to it all. Peter has a 2007 Auto Trail Cheyenne with 2.3 litre engine and living in the land of steep hills pretty soon realised that not all was as it should be in the Reversing Department with his new Fiat. He took it back to Chelston, the dealers, who agreed that indeed it went backwards up hills in a series of leap and jumps rather than smoothly, and they asked Fiat what to do? Fiat at this time hadn't got the terrorists in to handle the Customer Care on this issue, and instructed them to strip it down and find the fault, which they did, and they didn't. The Fiat Auto Trail still judders like the rest of them, but Fiat are now telling him that whilst they thought it a defect before, and worthy of a full three weeks attention in the workshop, there is in fact now absolutely nothing wrong with it. The judder (and any subsequent gearbox and clutch failures) are a 'Characteristic of the vehicle'. Peter is, like me, and quite a few others, baffled, and feeling just a little bit sick about his rather costly investment. The 'fix' for this is obviously such a large and expensive piece of re-engineering that Fiat are now battening down the hatches and repelling customers at all costs. If you have one of these vehicles (2007 onwards X250 models) it IS defective - Fiat have adimitted it to all and sundry except the customers - so go and reverse it up a steep hill (one in five or steeper) and experience the unique (but characteristic) juddering. Take your heads out of the sand before it costs you a fortune just after the warranty has expired. Better still, don't buy one in the first place. Daily rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diydoolittle Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-02-23 8:38 PM I wish I had half the eloquence and computer grasp which these other gentlemen (gits) seem to have mastered. How do you get a quote in the white box? Anyway, back to the defective Fiat business, and in truth I'm slightly depressed about the whole thing. I walked into this with the kind of wide eyed innocence which should only blight the young (or stupid?) and have received a very severe spanking from Fiat, who are obviously experts at this kind of thing. However, perhaps the tale of Peter Davies from Dyfed (don't ask me where it is) will bring some sort of perspective to it all. Peter has a 2007 Auto Trail Cheyenne with 2.3 litre engine and living in the land of steep hills pretty soon realised that not all was as it should be in the Reversing Department with his new Fiat. He took it back to Chelston, the dealers, who agreed that indeed it went backwards up hills in a series of leap and jumps rather than smoothly, and they asked Fiat what to do? Fiat at this time hadn't got the terrorists in to handle the Customer Care on this issue, and instructed them to strip it down and find the fault, which they did, and they didn't. The Fiat Auto Trail still judders like the rest of them, but Fiat are now telling him that whilst they thought it a defect before, and worthy of a full three weeks attention in the workshop, there is in fact now absolutely nothing wrong with it. The judder (and any subsequent gearbox and clutch failures) are a 'Characteristic of the vehicle'. Peter is, like me, and quite a few others, baffled, and feeling just a little bit sick about his rather costly investment. The 'fix' for this is obviously such a large and expensive piece of re-engineering that Fiat are now battening down the hatches and repelling customers at all costs. If you have one of these vehicles (2007 onwards X250 models) it IS defective - Fiat have adimitted it to all and sundry except the customers - so go and reverse it up a steep hill (one in five or steeper) and experience the unique (but characteristic) juddering. Take your heads out of the sand before it costs you a fortune just after the warranty has expired. Better still, don't buy one in the first place. Daily rant over. Hi your saga exactly mirrors the water ingress one!! Many will advocate complaint to Watchdog caravan club yada yada yada. However there is one thing you can do which you may or may not have done and that is get your stickey paws on a Vehicle Defect Form from VOSA ( yes they do exxist!!!) and fill it in! This obliges the manufacturer to investigate. The more people who do this the better. It would be an advantage as it were if safety were an issue not mechanical but someone somewhere i am sure is and may know whether this is a safety issue. 0117 9543 200 ask for Vehicle Safety Branch!! May or may not help but surely cannot hurt. One other thing I would tentatively suggest is reject vehicle??? Something which I know from personal experience is not easy but....................... Sorry to butt into this thread being a newcomer and all, but it is all so familiar with my experiences on scuttlegate it's untrue!! I really do hope you get it sorted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Anybody waiting for spares? Fiat spares van was broken down on M1 yesterday, not the best of adverts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy T Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 If it is the "characteristic of the vehicle" to junk a gearbox when reversed up a hill, surely that is taking credibility a tad too far! Sorry for repeating part of one of my previous posts but, "The six month protection (under the Sale of Goods Act) states that within that time period the consumer doesn't have to prove the goods are faulty; the retailer must prove otherwise. --- Repairs must be made in a reasonable time and the inherent fault corrected to make the product fit for purpose. If the same thing happens again, the product is still not fit for purpose. The law allows another chance to put things right, but after this (the owner) does not have to put up with having continuing repairs for recurrent faults and can demand a refund or damages." Please note "retailer must prove otherwise" and "inherent fault" (making it unfit for purpose). I think Andy Stothert has had his for more than six months but my six months is up on March 3rd and I will be ringing trading standards on Monday for more detailed advice. I can't afford another motorhome, this is the one and only. I have been in touch with Fiat who rang back to speak to me about the fault (when I was out) but then changed their minds. The contract is with the dealer and not Fiat and if the dealers have their yards full of slightly used and unsaleable Fiat Ducatos then I guess that will be when they start to listen. Still, my limited experience of complaining via Trading Standards suggests that pessimism is in order. :-( Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 AndyStothert - 2008-02-23 8:38 PM I wish I had half the eloquence and computer grasp which these other gentlemen (gits) seem to have mastered. How do you get a quote in the white box? ............... You mean like this, Andy? At the bottom right of each post there are two "buttons"; "Reply", and "Quote".Click on the Quote button, and your reply edit box opens with the selected post already there, contained between square brackets enclosing the words "QUOTE", and "/QUOTE". Place your cursor against, but outside, the bracket closing /QUOTE and make one return (i.e. press enter), to get to a new line. Then start typing your new text. It will all look the same in the edit box but if, when you've finished, you click on "preview" rather than "submit" you can see how the post will appear when submitted, while retaining the ability to make further edits via the edit box. You can also edit the original post, as I have above to delete most of yours. However, the ethics of doing this are a bit "sticky" - so you'll just have to make your own judgements!!! :-) Oh, and when you are satisfied, press "submit" below the edit box, and not "reply" under the preview pane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 There is no doubt that Fiat knows these vehicles have a defect. However, the likelihood of anyone from Fiat actually admitting to this is fairly remote. This forum alone is ample evidence why. The market for LGVs of Ducato type is highly competitive, and a lot of money is at stake. Any quotable admission by anyone at Fiat that there is a fault would hand market share to the opposition on a plate. Any fleet operator considering buying new vans will, by and large, audition the market, and each of the competing manufacturers will fall over themselves to tell their prospective customer about all the faults on their competitor's vans! Having a printed admission from a Fiat employee that the current Ducatos have problems reversing uphill would be be far too good to pass up on. Because Fiat fully understands this, and consequently is staying "mum", I think it reasonable to assume someone in their R&D department has the most enormous headache, and is under huge pressure, to come up with a simple, cheap, easy, fix. That they haven't yet found the golden bullet is probably no more that a reflection of a) the complexity of the problem, and b) their commercial need for the fix to be affordable. However, I'll be very surprised if they don't come up with the fix in the relatively near future. Whether this will be applied to all vans, or only to those with an acknowledged problem, will largely depend on the cost of the fix. Those of you with Fiat (but also, I think Peugeot and Citroen) bases, will have to decide whether you explore the reversing ability of your vehicles, or just trust nice Mr Fiat to do the fix anyhow. Me? I'd look for the fault, and then make sure my Fiat garage (and the motorhome seller) were fully aware. Why? Because I'm a cynic, and I don't believe Fiat's (or anyone else's for that matter) accountants would sanction wholesale remedy of a fault unless it had been recorded. Why should they? It is possible that the fault varies across vehicles, and requires particular combinations of tolerances to manifest itself. Where it isn't present, why fix it? If one of the above "tolerances" happens to be the need to reverse, under fine control, up a 1 in 5 hill, and you haven't yet tried that, you won't have recorded the fault, so your's probably won't get the fix. Do bear that in mind as you set off from nice flat Lincolnshire (or Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk, the Vale of York etc) for that Alpine holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thamesist Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Just another statistic- we've an 07 Boxer 2.2 100bhp. It judders in reverse. If you rev it, it sorts it- and burns the clutch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 And have you entered that fact here , pray? http://tinyurl.com/27fr9bIf not, please do. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Just a thought ... Graham are you out there??????? Does Fiat have to tell you about this? It might come under the 'Freedom of Information Act', if there is a known fault they might have to tell you! What d'ya think? I found this on the VOSA website, some of it makes interesting reading .... http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repository/CONT065736.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 You only have to judge Fiat's response along side: Cannot remember which car Clio or similar where the bonnet flew open at speed because the safety lock did not function. Quite a few reported accidents at speed. Volvos Throttle body problem which suddenly stopped the engine. Reported cases of it happening in the outside lane of motorways. Audi TT, Speedo consule problems that caused the whole speedo / dashboard to be replaced at £500 a unit, ""Problem sir, what problem ? Never heard of that happening before Sir."" *-) Love the power of the internet >:-) Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 24, 2008 Author Share Posted February 24, 2008 Brian Kirby - 2008-02-24 11:34 AMAndyStothert - 2008-02-23 8:38 PM I wish I had half the eloquence and computer grasp which these other gentlemen (gits) seem to have mastered. How do you get a quote in the white box? ............... You mean like this, Andy? At the bottom right of each post there are two "buttons"; "Reply", and "Quote".Click on the Quote button, and your reply edit box opens with the selected post already there, contained between square brackets enclosing the words "QUOTE", and "/QUOTE". Place your cursor against, but outside, the bracket closing /QUOTE and make one return (i.e. press enter), to get to a new line. Then start typing your new text. It will all look the same in the edit box but if, when you've finished, you click on "preview" rather than "submit" you can see how the post will appear when submitted, while retaining the ability to make further edits via the edit box. You can also edit the original post, as I have above to delete most of yours. However, the ethics of doing this are a bit "sticky" - so you'll just have to make your own judgements!!! :-) Oh, and when you are satisfied, press "submit" below the edit box, and not "reply" under the preview pane!Ah. Surely it can't be that easy? Tomorrow shuld have news of John Yarwood's latest appointment with Fiat. I hope he experiences less smoke (from the van and Fiat) than I did. I am now wondering if the treatment dished out to our Ducato in the 'test' doesn't warrant a new clutch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 25, 2008 Author Share Posted February 25, 2008 Today's snippet re the FIAT REVERSING JUDDERS is that I have finally got hold of a 2.2 litre 5 speed 100 PS model today and tried it up a moderately steep hill (but not the 1:5 ours got for the Dealer Destruction Derby) and yes it juddered. But not nearly as badly as our 6 speed 2.3 litre does, or all the other 6 speed ones I've driven. The only real difference I know of is the ratio of the final drive unit which is lower on the less powerful models. So, even though I could very well be still barking up the wrong tree, it is looking like the reverse gear ratio, plus some other contributory factor (mountings etc) is the cause. This is very bad. Sorting this out is something Fiat will not want to do. IF YOU HAVE A FIAT (OR PEUGEOT/CITROEN) X250 GO AND REVERSE IT UP A STEEP HILL. IF IT JUDDERS, WHICH IT WILL, COMPLAIN TO FIAT OFFICIALLY. Then let me know. This fault can cause premature gearbox and clutch failure. Don't wait until it happesn outside the warranty period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brom Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 We recently borrowed two Boxers, a 100 PS, 5-speeder and a 120PS 6-speeder, and tested them backwards up a moderate hill (not a 1:5). The 120 was awful, however you approached the reversing procedure. If we gave it lots of welly and slipped the clutch it stood and shook, and smelt, and went nowhere. Try it without any throttle, gently, gently, and it stalled. It wasn't ours, so we didn't push it hard, but clearly there was a problem here. The 100, by contrast, gave us no trouble at all. Again, it was an ordinary hill, not Wrynose Pass, but it confirmed what we found testing a 100 PS 'Fifer', that it was OK in normal circumstances. The problem with the bigger engine is not entirely new. Our previous '54 LWB Ducato with a 2.3 110PS engine and 5 speed box, was unable to reverse into our drive, which has a mild slope. I was at the NEC show last week, so added my observations to the technical man, Andy Parker, on the 'Fiat Professional' stand. He promised that their boffins knew of the problem and were 'working on it'. Given that it took VW two years and several design re-vamps to sort out the leaking windows on their T5, I suspect it could take some time! My suggestion would be for all new owners to test their 'van up a hill, and see if it has the problem. If so, contact Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen and maintain a polite dialogue IN WRITING until they sort it out. Try to get hold of an individual with some clout in the organisation and try to build up a relationship with them. If the manufacturers are innundated with paper on the question, it will be in their own interests to solve the matter, and your letters and emails mean you have the evidence to show you brought it to their attention within the warranty period. Or, if you haven't already bought, insist on a trial of your prospective van, to include a reverse hill start, before signing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Hi Brom. You've detailed exactly what happened to my Auto-Trail Tracker with the 130ps engine. Not too steep a gradient, judder like mad, slip clutch, more revs, stood still and smoked like mad. Tried taking it easy and it stalled. It's gone in today for examination of the clutch and dmf. Will let you all know if they find anything or not, and what they do. Mike H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 Despite the noises which are starting to seep out of Fiat about addressing issues it could all be yet more delaying tactics and smoke signals. Any of you out there with a Fiat, Peugeot or Citroen whch is juddering when reversing up hills should make an official complaint to the manufacturer. The more of us complain the more likely a solution..... Anyway the whole point of tonights 'blog' is some information received from one of our number who has a juddering Peugeot. All those with X250s which judder should contact Paul Traviner at VOSA (tel: 0117 954 3300) to express their concerns about the vehicle and specifically the safety aspects of reversing something up a steep hill which has no clutch control and has to be reversed at such high speeds to stop the juddering that it becomes unsafe. Do this tomorrow and can you and let me know when you have. ANY FIRST TIME VISITORS TO THE FORUM who own a new model Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen can you please go and reverse it up a steep hill and let me know if you are unhappy with its behaviour whilst reversing. andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 i as to push alice up any steep hills round yer, and that is definately a life threatening situation. it is for fred anyway my biddies. f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 i as to push alice up any steep hills round yer, and that is definately a life threatening situation. it is for fred anyway my biddies. f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 i as to push alice up any steep hills round yer, and that is definately a life threatening situation. it is for fred anyway my biddies. f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 stopped judderinn now my ansums - in case u should ask like. foolishfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Latest CC Magazine page 10 Sevel vehicles top the list of recalls. No mention of juddering though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 I wonder why (^) 8-) 8-) some people aint honest are they *-) makes me wonder if there isnt anything in MMM about it and people dont or can't use the forum are they blindly being caught . very sad all that money to find out you have real problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 The lack of editorial coment in MMM is due to the delay in a situation arising and the date of publication. And, to be fair, I dithered about telling anyone what I suspected (that the problem was widespread) until I was fairly sure about the facts. So until the forum brought the size of the problem to light the Editors of MMM only knew about one case of juddering and a broken gearbox - mine. I should perhaps have let them know what I was planning to do, and how big I thought the issue was, but hindsight is like looking up peoples backsides. So we can have no beef with the two loonies from Devon who construct the magazine. Some of the suits are another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM6VXB Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 The judder problem experienced is not actually caused by the clutch but by torquing up the complete drive train to a point that something has to give, which is usually the driver who either slips the clutch, increases revs or stops and has another go. Seriously though it would normally be tyre adhession but with all the weight being transfered onto the driven wheels while reversing, the clutch is the weakest link in the chain and could slip and also cause judder. The main problem seems to lie with either the engine mountings or torque tube (if there is one fitted). This is a common problem on many cars as well, but shows up more on a 3.5 ton motorohome. Basically the 'white van man' Ducato normally only runs his vehicle half loaded, so all up weight would always be less than a motor home in running trim. The Only difference I can see between a 'Maxi' chassis Ducato and an X250 is that the rear chassis is different, and the 2.3 Litre engined version has been 'tweaked' to give a different power curve. All the engine, and transmission parts would appear to be the same. So we are running a vehicle near to the maximum allowable rating all of the time which will show up any design issues more than the standard product. I have noticed that the engine mounting appears to have more give when in reverse than when moving forward. This indicates either asymetrical mountings or a torque tube, I cannot see a tube fitted but not crawled right under the van for a look yet. This issue may also be the reason why many owners have commented on a thump when starting up the engine, sudden torque on the mounts causing the noise. With a transverse engine layout the engine under torque will try to rock back and forth, so a rod fitted to the top of the engine will limit this. Problem is it also transfers engine noise and vibration to the cab area as well. I have not heard any complaints about noisy cabs on the new Ducato's but I am sure this would cause a few if fitted without some form of damping. There has also been talk about gear ratio's. I sat down with the tech specs for all engines and worked out what the speed in 1st and reverse would be a 1000RPM for each variant. Figures below: 2.2L 100 MultiJet Reverse = 5.14 First = 4.35 2.3L 130 MultiJet Reverse = 4.64 First = 5.084 2.3L 130 Maxi Chassis Reverse = 4.0 First = 4.38 3L 160 Reverse = 4.64 First = 4.54 3L 160 Maxi Chassis Reverse = 4.58 First = 4.49 Figures for 'Maxi' chassis presume 16 inch wheels, though my Lunar H601 (2.3L) is fitted with 15 inch so goes even slower in reverse ! and is 5MPH slower than indicated on the speedo at 60MPH which calculations show spot on if 16 inch wheel were fitted. Lower reverse ratios could also be a cure, but what is the ratio of white vans to motorhomes, and is it financially worth FIAT fitting different ratios for X250 chassis. After all, the FIAT part of the motorhome is probably much less than £15,000 and any changes would have to be reflected in price in an already competitve market. As you can see from the figures the problem should be worse on a 2.2 Litre vehicle, but how many 3.5 ton motorhomes are based on the shorter chassis. Most complaints seem to be from the bigger vans fitted on the Maxi or Al-Ko chassis which will be nearer the 3.5 ton limit. Driving style can cause the problem to become worse, lots of threads about this though. I only have problems in 'panic' moments, but have not experienced any serious tramp. BTW I am not a mechanic, just a Telecomunication engineer, but used to like taking cars apart before the advent of electonic engineering. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Nice shack Martin, in the roof like mine. Makes hanging the racks of components a bit awkward though! Fantastic take off from Frazerborough. Better take off than a Ducato without doubt - well backwards anyway! www.motts.dsl.pipex.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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