steve101 Posted May 7, 2016 Share Posted May 7, 2016 Ok I have a fault that I need some help with please. It is a 2011 Fiat Ducato 2.3 150bhp. When accelerating with the engine under load in any gear and any speeds the engine seems to cut out and back in again. This throws up a light to say that the hill control assist and esp are not functioning. It was throwing an EML light also which came back with a code P0089, since replacing the fuel filter it no longer illuminates the EML and therefore no further codes are stored. Has anyone experienced anything like this at all?? (Watch the Rev counter) https://www.flickr.com/gp/141056298@N08/0ppt3M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 8, 2016 Author Share Posted May 8, 2016 The next installment! I have installed some Fiat specific software to scan the ECU and it has come up with a code of U1701. I cleared this and recreated the fault and the same code re-appeared, so this is definitely linked to my problem. Anyone have any experience of this code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 No experience of the code but someone might have over on the Fiat Ducato forum - well worth registering IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 8, 2016 Author Share Posted May 8, 2016 Thanks Ken. I have been on there also but replies are a little slow at the moment. I was kind of hoping someone would come on and give me some gem on information to get it sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 8, 2016 Author Share Posted May 8, 2016 I will try an add a screenshot of the fault on the scan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 8, 2016 Share Posted May 8, 2016 The code refers to a communication error between on board computers...e.g the Engine management system and the esp/brake computer. Now as they talk to each other all the time and fault code does not show up when running normally it points to something failing under hard acceleration and when engine is possibly rocking hard anticlockwise. There is history of few areas which can cause electrical issues. 1. The engine strap from gearbox to the chassis. This corrodes and so increases the impedance and as a matter of course should be replaced or doubled up with a new one. Worth doing anyway. 2. Rusty Junction. This is under the main fuse box in the engine compartment where the connections can corrode because of damp. They should be checked, but be very careful when accessing as if any wired are brittle and fail totally so you may lose where they were attached. Nick form Euroserve who posts on here will be able to give more info, or anyone who has accessed this area. I am just repeating info I have picked up about this problem area. 3. Main connector for Engine Management computer. These do not always have effective sealing for the cables in the connector and some connections can corrode. Usually needing cleaned up and reconnected. Cannot see it being this as cables does not really move when engine rocks so faulct would occur all the time or at random. Sorry I cannot be of much much more help a not very familiar with the X250 except what I have read. Hopefully Nick from Euroserve will pick this thread up tomorrow and be able to offer assistance, but I favour the earth strap from gearbox to chassis as the cuprit despite my chain of thoughts saying if it was there would also be other fault codes recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 Hi Brambles. That's really helpful information there. It seems there could be lots of them by which feels a bit overwhelming at the moment. I'll be sure to start checking some of those things when I get home later after work, starting with that earth strap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Nothing that i can add to that Brambles! God job. My money is definitely going to be on the earth strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandy Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Having just bought a 'van on a 2013 ducato it seems from this and other comments I've seen that a second earth strap might be a sensible idea. Do I just connect any convenient point on the engine block or gearbox to anywhere on the bodywork, or are there preferred connection points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 Just been working may way through the above excellent pointers from Bramble. 1. Earth strap removed, both ends and both sides cleaned up with a bit of sandpaper. Also the mounting points were cleaned up a little. There was not much in the way of corrosion but I will leave it to the more knowledgeable to determine this when looking at the photos. Small amount of copper grease added for good measure and re attached. 2. ECU connections were all under cover and had a small layer of dust on. I did not take the connections out as I felt there was no need. 3. All connections in the fuse box were fine and dandy, all pins gleaming all sockets spotless. The only cable I was concerned about was the one shown in the photo below. The red one has a big kink in it, it appears to have reinforcement below the kink, this can be seen to the left of the tape that I have peeled back. Is this normal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 It's not necessarily the contact points of the strap that break down but the crap braiding itself. Best to replace with a cable type, Various sizes off the shelf at Halfords if you want something quick. Here's one but others available http://www.halfords.com/workshop-tools/garage-equipment/car-battery-chargers/halfords-negative-battery-cable-45cm-18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 aandy - 2016-05-09 4:57 PM Having just bought a 'van on a 2013 ducato it seems from this and other comments I've seen that a second earth strap might be a sensible idea. Do I just connect any convenient point on the engine block or gearbox to anywhere on the bodywork, or are there preferred connection points? For the low cost, a second cable wouldn't go amiss. Find a suitable 8mm bolt on the engine and connect, as we did, to the -ve earth bolt that Fiat recommend for jump starting (near where the bonnet support rod is located). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 As far as I know from previous discussions on this subject, it's the braided strap which is the problem and not necessarily the connection points either end. A solid cable type stap can be purchased from Halfords for about £6 which is about 30cm long. I bought one in case of similar problems but haven't got round to fitting yet. Edit, Halfords cable is 45cm long as per previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 Thanks Ken and Robbo. I haven't seen that yet. Can I ask Ken where you mounted it to on the engine?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 steve101 - 2016-05-09 7:18 PM Thanks Ken and Robbo. I haven't seen that yet. Can I ask Ken where you mounted it to on the engine?? Sorry, can't remember. Back in motorhome on Friday this week and will have a look if you can wait a few days. Have a faint memory that it may have been the engine lifting bracket but not 100% sure - sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 Well today I have replaced the earth strap with new. Test drove it and the fault still showed up. It was also scanned by a chap with Snap On diagnostics which showed no faults at all. A mate spoke to someone in an Iveco / Peugeot dealer and they felt that this could be related to the fuel pump breaking down when hot and under pressure. I am dubious on this one as I would not have thought that it would throw a light up and why would that knock out the hill control and the ESP systems. So I have checked the easy stuff and not joy...... :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 While i can't add much by way of suggestions, i thought i would help clear up a few of the questions....... If the engine stops running while the vehicle is moving, there are a few systems that will no longer be operating; most significantly the brake servo. For this reason any system that has control over the brakes (ABS, EBD and hill holder) will no longer be available, so the warnings for these will come on pretty sharpish. The fuel pump that they are speaking of is the lift pump and that is in the top of the fuel tank. If this stops supplying fuel at any higher engine speed than idle, the engine will stop. It is possible that this is the problem. While the engine is idling, there is enough of a 'suck' from the high pressure pump to keep it running but when the pressure required is increased; there will be insufficient fuel available without the lift pump running. This kind of failure is very rare but entirely possible; not through heat exposure though since the pump is an a fairly cool location under the vehicle. With a diagnostic machine plugged in, it should be possible to rev the engine up a little (2000 rpm should do it) and watch for the fuel pressure to suddenly drop just before the engine stops. Most diagnostic units can monitor the pump and it will clearly state whether the pump is running or not. Even if you switch the engine off, the pump will run for 10 or 15 seconds afterwards, so it's easy to see what is going on. If the diag says 'pump running' and it is not; the problem is the pump. If the diag says pump not running, the problem will be with the pump relay or another electrical fault. All of this assumes that there are no obvious fuel leaks! The engine management light is only there to warn that something that could potentially affect the emissions of the vehicle is not working as expected. In the case of a fuel supply problem, this is not affecting the emissions in a negative way so will not be reported. This is the case with all vehicles. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 steve101 - 2016-05-10 4:05 PM Well today I have replaced the earth strap with new. Test drove it and the fault still showed up. Replaced, not doubled-up? The usual advice is to add an extra earth from the chassis point where the original strap is terminated, to a bolt on either the engine, or the gearbox. Is this what you have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 Good evening all. Thanks for coming back to me so quickly. With regards to the fuel pump possibility. It is handy to know that other systems would also shut down at the same time. My thoughts on this are as follows: If it was the pump, surely it would cut out as you say when it was revved in neutral or in fact when it is moving in any gear? This does not happen, it only seems to happen when the engine is warm and the engine is pulling / under load, normally in the higher gears as per the video. I can drive around the fault which is odd. Also if the pump causes the engine to stop would the battery light not illuminate? Would be interesting if it was the fuel pump as it first happened after filling up in Germany when I collected it....contaminated fuel perhaps? Especially as the filter was bunged up also? It does seem plausible that it could be the pump but I would have expected a pump to last longer than 50k (miles) unless there was a fuel contaminate introduced. I have MES so will look at monitoring the fuel pump on revs tonight to see if I can notice anything. The other thing that throws me away from the pump is the screen shot from the MES pointing towards other possible causes. EDIT Which I have just realised I have not added as yet. Now have. Oops. Which I can barely read so : Check the following: - Engine control node disconnected from the network - The engine control node fails to transmit data on CAN correctly -Check the diagnosis on the engine control unit - ABS control unit faulty The fault is intermittent. Clear the fault codes and observe for future appearance of the same fault. Dashboard warning light was not activated for this fault. With regards to the earth strap. For now it was a straight replacement to see if it made any effect on the problem. My thinking behind this was that they have been designed (albeit badly) to run with just the one, if that new strap had have made a difference I would have looked at doing a second one. I still may do this when this problem has been resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Steve, You having now mentioned ABS brings me back to what I had considered posting earlier but then thought unlikely, namely that if you have certain faults with the braking system this can cause a momentary cut in power. Have you ever tried to left foot brake a diesel while still pressing the accelerator? They normally cut power as soon as you touch the brake! So if you had, say, a faulty brake light light switch or wiring fault which happened under acceleration this could cause a momentary loss of power. Or how about an ABS fault? again a faulty sensor or wiring fault could potentially cause your loss of power. You should be able to monitor live data of wheel speeds or brake pedal switch to see what is happening. Worth trying if all else fails. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 Hi Keith. Firstly thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts down. They are much appreciated. I have t be here nest I have never tried breaking / accelerating at the same time but I'll take your experience on board. The thought of a faulty brake light switch sounds too good to be true but I see where your coming from. That brings a different aspect to the game. Could be looking at ABS wheel sensors then. The list just gets longer. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 I tried braking our x2/50 whilst still under power and all that seemed to happen was the van slowed as would be expected due to drag of brakes, the engine appeared to have no power drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 10, 2016 Author Share Posted May 10, 2016 Ok thanks Colin. That clears that one up then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 11, 2016 Author Share Posted May 11, 2016 I went out to scan the vehicle again last night in order to see if I could do some monitoring. What is weird is every time we try and connect to the ABS module it immediately flashes up the hill control and ABD Eric fail messages. It did it when I have plugged it in and when snap on plug in. It's leading me to think it could well be a broken wire between the ECU and the ABS module. Which kind of goes back to Brambles first line on his suggestions list... Any thoughts on any of my ramblings are appreciated. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Two more observations regarding the above..... If you try to accelerate while braking the power will be reduced but the engine will not cut out completely. It is normal for the 'ABS Unavailable' and other warnings to come up on the dash while you are interrogating that module. It cannot work properly if it is being accessed from an outside device; so it shuts off until you 'release' it. The amount of fuel that is consumed at even a fast idle is a fraction of what is required under load while driving. I am still thinking that the pump is failing to deliver sufficient fuel whether by switching off completely or a restriction in the flow. A severe restriction will cause the fuel to run out once the lines and filter are empty. The Fiat fuel system is very efficient at self priming once a flow of fuel is restored. If this was a Ford, for instance; you would not be able to re-start a fuel starved engine without intervention. Ironically, that would make diagnostics easier at the cost of leaving you stranded! You need to monitor the operation of the fuel lift pump and if it does not switch off before the engine stalls this is a good indication of a fuel restriction which could be in the lines before the fuel filter or the pump itself. I have never changed an X250 fuel pump, so contamination is the most likely cause and it may be possible to clean the pump rather than have to fit a new one but while it is removed, the fuel tank will have to be thoroughly cleaned as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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