steve101 Posted May 11, 2016 Author Share Posted May 11, 2016 Been out tonight trying to drive and run a monitor in the background. Here are two graphs where this fault has happened. Strangely on one the speed reading drops to zero but on the other it doesn't. If anyone can see anything strange then please shout up as my eyes are blurred and my brain frazzled! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 12, 2016 Author Share Posted May 12, 2016 Tonight I disconnected the battery and removed as many electrical connectors as I could and thoroughly checked for corrosion and gave it a blast of contact cleaner. If I had to be really picky there was the tiniest amount on one pin in 'rusty junction'. I really don't think that tiny amount would have had any effect mind. It may have even been a large bit of dust! I then peeled back the loom bindings between the ECU the ABS ECU back towards the wing, I found a two cables twisted together that went straight from one plug to the other, I assume that these wires are canbus related so I gave them a good check over. Ultimately I found nothing.... So I taped all the wires back up again. From there I moved on to any other engine connectors. The only one that looked dubious was this one below. I popped it off correctly but it did not want to re seat itself into a secure position. Before I took it off I am pretty sure it was secure. It doesn't look like there was much on the connector housing to hold it clipped together. As per photo 2. There was a clear line of dust around the top of the connector which says to me that it was not loose but who knows. I have now utilised a cable tie for now to ensure the connection is going to get loose and come off. Can anyone tell me what this part is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Looks like the EGR valve to me. Not seen one that looks like that but where it sits and the connector type is the clue to me. Should be a small tang the locking clip goes over...make sure you are not getting it pushing up inside the connector housing and not on outside. Sometimes the bit that locks over the tang can get damaged if you are too forceful removing. You have to push the connector on slightly harder before trying to release the clip to make sure it lifts and not just bends while griping the tang. Beginning to look like you are going to have to access the tank lift pump and clean it even if just so you can eliminate it. Edit - looking again...it looks like the triangular tang has broken off, make sure it is not trapped down inside the connectors preventing the two halves mating properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 12, 2016 Author Share Posted May 12, 2016 It feels as though the connector is pushing home ok. I have not seen the plastic tang, funnily enough I did look inside the connector, it must have vanished. Maybe it was like that already then as I was delicate and did push before pulling! Just checked the pics on ebay and I can see it is the EGR and I can see the tang you refer to. I would have known if I had taken that off as it has quite a solid base to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 I'm reading on graph your booting it but ECU has not got proper requirements in Air, fuel and turbo requirements. Fuel pump is pressurising ok but its being cut. So see if you can get a reading from the boost pressure sensor in varying speeds. Talking between 0.1 and 5 volts here. Also check turbo operating Vacuum hoses and operating solenoid valve. EGR leakage Can upset air/fuel mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 I'm reading on graph your booting it but ECU has not got proper requirements in Air, fuel and turbo requirements. Fuel pump is pressurising ok but its being cut. So see if you can get a reading from the boost pressure sensor in varying speeds. Talking between 0.1 and 5 volts here. Also check turbo operating Vacuum hoses and operating solenoid valve. EGR leakage Can upset air/fuel mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Double reply what next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 12, 2016 Author Share Posted May 12, 2016 When you say it is being cut, I am sorry I don't quite understand? To me it looks like it is mimicking the throttle position? I will endeavor to take it out again tomorrow and monitor the other areas you have mentioned and see if that sheds any more light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Steve, To help us understand your graphs a little better please could you annotate them with pointers when you press the gas pedal, when you back off and any other points of interest. All I can see from what you posted yesterday is that you seem to be losing comms between the various ECU's as why else would the signals fall almost instantly to zero? I would suspect a wiring fault for this. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 Hi Keith. I am hoping to get out tonight to do some more monitoring so I will endevour to do something with those graphs. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 There's cutting out and cutting out. In one cutting out the engine stops while the other cutting out is of the power being reduced and you go into limp mode for say 60 seconds. When you boot it or accelerate there are several parameters required, boost pressure, fuel pressure and air/fuel mixture. Difficulty starting needs one of these and I can think of 4 answers. So you are having power cut on acceleration, well your fuel pressure looks not bad as I have said. So theirs two answers left that need checked. Boost sensor would be the EASY answer (I had it few months ago). Then there's the turbo which makes the boost. Is it working ok, is it being ASKED to work as required via Vacuum. Now how about air/fuel mixture, interruption I'm looking at here note, and all I can think of is for by turbo is EGR as this can cause shutdowns due to loss of boost. EGR closes on booting it as you don't want any of that burnt exhaust gas in mixture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 I have been having bit of a mare with this one tonight, trying to use the software mainly. I have established that this happens more regularly on an up hill incline. Here are a couple of graphs which ,fuel, turbo, air etc being monitored. One thing I have noticed is that the signal from the gas pedal is the first thing to drop followed by anything else. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7089/26926748141_99cce1eeab_z.jpg https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7667/26389442474_0021c1ac2f_b.jpg I also took a couple of snap shots from a phone app and tickover. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7548/26720692870_f6a7d68c9e_b.jpg https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7228/26994287885_471e5e2490_b.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 steve101 - 2016-05-13 9:54 PM One thing I have noticed is that the signal from the gas pedal is the first thing to drop followed by anything else. Steve, I admire your perseverance! A question which I appreciate you may not be able to answer but could help lead to the cause, is the signal which you call 'Gas Pedal Position' ACTUALLY the position of the accelerator or is it the figure which the ECU is sending to the engine? Have you tried pressing the accelerator with the ignition on but engine off and monitoring this signal? If it does not change (ie constant 0%) then it is the latter description above and is then indicating that some other reason is responsible for the ECU shutting down the demand for power. Quite what that is I am currently at a total loss for suggestions but may help you in your next steps. If the reading does change with pedal position then you possibly have a failing throttle potentiometer but I somehow doubt this is the case. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 13, 2016 Share Posted May 13, 2016 Steve, As an aside have you checked the air intake and air filter for rodent damage? This has regularly been reported as causing a loss of power on Ducato's. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 Good question. I'll answer that in the morning. As I would get told of by the wife if I went out now. Not sure the neighbours would be too happy seeing me in my pj's and nightcap. ?? As for my perseverance it's purely down to money and not being overly comfortable with trusting dealers to not try and ring me dry by throwing parts at it. I taught myself to throw a spanner reasonably well as I could never really afford to have the luxury of someone doing it for me. Although I do know my limits. As for the potential rodent damage I have checked the air box but not fully checked the inlet pipe work. Another one for the morning. Although I would have thought if that was the case it would do it every time and when the engine was cold not just warm. I don't know. I too am running out of ideas fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 14, 2016 Author Share Posted May 14, 2016 Keithl - 2016-05-13 10:22 PM steve101 - 2016-05-13 9:54 PM One thing I have noticed is that the signal from the gas pedal is the first thing to drop followed by anything else. Steve, I admire your perseverance! A question which I appreciate you may not be able to answer but could help lead to the cause, is the signal which you call 'Gas Pedal Position' ACTUALLY the position of the accelerator or is it the figure which the ECU is sending to the engine? Have you tried pressing the accelerator with the ignition on but engine off and monitoring this signal? If it does not change (ie constant 0%) then it is the latter description above and is then indicating that some other reason is responsible for the ECU shutting down the demand for power. Quite what that is I am currently at a total loss for suggestions but may help you in your next steps. If the reading does change with pedal position then you possibly have a failing throttle potentiometer but I somehow doubt this is the case. Keith. Hi Keith. Here is a chart showing the throttle position that we were talking about yesterday. What do you think as it looks like I thought it would to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Hi Steve, That looks like your throttle pedal and both it's 'resistive tracks' are working OK. That means that some other factor is causing the engine to hesitate. A thought, can you try logging exactly the same parameters and drive the MH to replicate the fault. I wonder if you have a broken wire on the throttle sensor? You should see one of the individual signals fall or rise if this is the case. And if one of the two signals fails this will cause the ECU to momentarily shut down power. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 15, 2016 Author Share Posted May 15, 2016 Morning Keith. Ask and ye shall receive! (I keep saying that about a miracle for the van!) I also did one with the MAF disconnected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonaldson Posted May 15, 2016 Share Posted May 15, 2016 EGR position. I see one line for the EGR and its almost strait can you confirm this as the EGR must close on acceleration/booting it. Don't know if your EGR is electrical coil operated, Vacuum or external rod. Your pedal is the first to drop and fuel pressure etc follow. But between pedal and pump there will be the ECU not getting required parameters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 15, 2016 Author Share Posted May 15, 2016 It is shown as EGR valve opening. From looking at the screenshot this end which is a little clearer it shows it being open all the time between 100-150%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Also on the left side bar it shows the minimum figures of 128% and the maximum of 155% How an earth can it be open more then 100%. When I did math at school that was the top of the tree, am I missing something here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Hi Steve, As EGR has been mentioned, have you tried disconnecting the solenoid to disable the EGR? Have a read of the fifth post in this thread by Nick (Euroserv)... Link. The original symptoms sound somewhat similar to yours. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve101 Posted May 16, 2016 Author Share Posted May 16, 2016 Been out tonight with the solenoid unplugged. It felt very underpowered so I assume that it had gone into limp mode and it threw and EML which I expected. However the fault did not occur. I also tried it with the main connector photo earlier in the thread unplugged. On this run the fault was back again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 Steve, Drop a PM to 'Euroserv' (Nick) and ask him for advice as he is an expert on Ducato's but I suspect your EGR valve is faulty and possibly jammed open. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 16, 2016 Share Posted May 16, 2016 I cannot see it being the EGR jammed open as supposed to be open when you boot it with a hot engine so would not cause the issue. Also would flag up errors codes related to the EGR as well surely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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