Fiat Ducato X250 engine cutting out?

[steve101]

I would feel a little bad asking Nick. He did contribute early on in the thread and I know he is a busy man who gives his time for free. If I was nearer I would definitely take it to him.

 

I pretty much out of ideas to try now.... It taken the shine off the whole experience for me.

[euroserv]

Hi Steve,

 

I have been observing this most days and have had little to add really until now. Your earliest posts led me to believe that the engine was cutting out; ie: not running at all when the problem occurs and that convinced me that it has to be a fuel issue. Later posts suggest that you are losing power but the engine does not stop. Which is right?

 

Assuming that the engine does not stop; the throttle body and EGR solenoid on the 2.3-150 engine are quite different to the 2.3-120 engines that i am familiar with but it does sound highly likely that you have a defective throttle body. I think a plug-in at a Fiat dealer would confirm this for you. I don't have any history to call upon since we have never run any 150's until the Euro 5 engines of late but the symptoms do fit and disconnecting the EGR solenoid does change things for you and that is as much as a clue as you will get.

 

If you would like to PM your chassis number i will familiarise myself with your engine layout and see what needs to be done.

 

You still need to be 100% sure that there are no dead mice in there though!

 

Nick

 

[steve101]

Hi Nick. Very kind of you to goatee extra mile it is appreciated.

[steve101]

I have lost count of what chapter this is on now.

 

I have received my adapter connectors to enable me to scan the other modules.

 

I cleared everything and scanned it with the ignition on engine off. All clear.

 

Started the engine and the dashboard and body modules both read code U0019 - Low Speed CAN Communication Bus

 

The engine and ABS were clear.

 

I will take it for a run after dinner and see what else I can add to the list!

[steve101]

Well looking on the bright side the only other code to ping was the original one that started this thread off.

 

So only two codes.

 

The only thing that concerns me is on the software when I try to activate the EGR solenoid it fails to do it with some code 24 which I will look into now.

 

I used another program and dragged this information from it about the vehicle.

 

 

Injection control unit: Programmed

Engine startup: Allowed

Universal code: Not enabled

Electronic key: Enabled

Type of cruise present: Cruise control

Climate control/conditioner: Learnt

Brake node (NFR): Learnt

Electric fan mode: On/Off

Engine oil level sensor: Not learnt

Odometer: 88455.10 km

Odometer at last rewrite: 7063.00 km

Number of rewrites: 1

Number of overrevs: 0

Maximum engine speed: 0 rpm

Maximum engine speed counter: 0.00 msec

Last overrev odometer: 0.00 km

Functioning time (eeprom): 131440 min

Time since Key-On (eeprom): 465 sec

Key On Counter (EEPROM): 12766

ECU Time first DTC detection (EEPROM): 0 min

ECU Time Stamps from KeyOn first DTC detection (EEPROM): 0 sec

Key-On counter alignment: 127

Odometer at last ECU replacement: 88455.13 km

Vehicle version:

With DPF and Lambda upstream sensor

EGR high pressure valve control status:

Air quantity control: Enabled

EGR position control: Disabled

EGR valve learn: Disabled

ECU Time Stamps (RAM): 131450 min

ECU Time Stamps From Key On (RAM): 15 sec

Speed limit: None

Water in diesel filter: Not present

Failure warning lamp: Off

Distance travelled with 'Water in diesel' warning lamp 'ON': 6015 km

Distance travelled with 'Water Temperature' warning lamp 'ON': 0 km

Power latch duration: 1 msec

Glow plugs lamp: Off

Water temperature warning lamp: Off

Variable geometry turbo valve status: Not learnt

Engine oil pressure: Normal

Preheating control unit: Off

Preheating control unit diagnosis: Correct

Clutch pedal: Released

Accelerator pedal potentiometer track : 2

Clutch pedal extended: Released

Brake pedal: Released

Brake contact 2: Released

Brake pedal: Released

Conditioner enable request: Off

Conditioner relay control: Off

Radiator fan control: Off

Fan speed: Off

Fuel pump relay command: On

EGR check: On

Gear engaged: No

Cruise switch: On

Cruise restore button (RCL): Released

Set cruise deceleration (-): Not requested

Set cruise acceleration (+): Not requested

Irreversible cruise error status: No error

Number of 'Oil change' procedures: 2

Odometer at last 'oil change': 81196.30 km

Distance to next oil change, km: 38100.00 km

'Oil change' request odometer: 68021.00 km

Oil degradation indicator: 84.71 %

Fan command 1: Not activated

Fan command 2: Not activated

Fan command 3: Not activated

Particulate filter regeneration: Off

Turbo control: Enabled

Lambda sensor status: Not active

Glow plugs control status: Not active

Number of regenerations interrupted by key off: 0

Km travelled with DPF warning lamp 'on': 0

Particulate filter state: 30% - 120%, Normal clogging

Last DPF replacement odometer: 88455.10 km

Odometer from last DPF regeneration: 115.70 km

Average temperature of last 5 regenerations: 673.00 °C

Average distance of last 5 regenerations: 1313 km

Average duration of last 5 regenerations: 505 sec

Total number of regenerations: 122

Fiat drawing number: 0

Number of regenerations since last oil change: 0

Cylinder 1 Injector Code: AR17AIB

Cylinder 2 Injector Code: ASS5FAC

Cylinder 3 Injector Code: A8S1D18

Cylinder 4 Injector Code: B1BGF5B

 

[Keithl]

Steve,

 

If I'm reading your last post correctly there are a lot of things in that list that worry me...

 

1. How many miles has this MH covered? List includes Odometer at 88,455 km and 'last rewrite' at 7,063 km. Is this mileage true or has the MH been clocked? Also includes 'Odometer at last ECU replacement: 88455.13 km' and 'Odometer at last 'oil change': 81196.30 km'.

 

2. 'EGR position control: Disabled' and 'EGR valve learn: Disabled'. Q. Has the MH been chipped or reprogrammed to eliminate EGR?

 

3. Is 'Distance travelled with 'Water in diesel' warning lamp 'ON': 6015 km' a sign of previous abuse?

 

And that's just for starters!

 

PS Still think your CAN communication is a wiring fault!

 

Keith.

[steve101]

1. The clocks are showing it has now covered 90k. Which is about 1500 k more then the ECU. It drives like it has the correct mileage. Maybe it had an issue when new with the ECU and dealer changed / replaced it.

 

The rewrite one - I do know that around this year there was a software upgrade which may have had to been flashed to the ECU.

 

The oil change i guess gets set when it is changed. I have seen this on the other software that I've been using.

 

2. Good questions. It is spritely but it is a 150bhp. I don't really have anything to compare it too.

 

3. Really can't answer that one.

 

I'm a little lost to say the least.

 

[steve101]

Just putting it out there could that second code of the body and dash module be due to low battery voltage?

[steve101]

Interestingly Ive had someone come back to me on the Fiat forum saying that the 2.3 engines suffer with injector problems. Is anyone else aware of this problem?

[euroserv]

First;

 

No. Neither the 2.3 or 3.0 engines are known to have injector problems. I can say that with confidence since i have only known one injector fault between the 80 or so X250 Ducato's that have passed through our hands. I have recently had a 2014 vehicle that is using too much oil diagnosed with defective injectors. They have been replaced and it has made no difference. I am certain that this was miss-diagnosed but what the hell; i didn't have to pay for it!

 

Getting back to your problem......

 

I have spoken to our local Fiat dealer and there are some known issues with the position sensor that is part of the variable turbo that you have. These operate in conjunction with the EGR solenoid valve which would be consistent with your findings when you ran the vehicle with the solenoid unplugged. There are a number of "Service News" items that the dealers have access to from Fiat in order to help with specific diagnosis and i strongly advise that this vehicle should be examined by a Fiat Professional dealer. It would be easy to speculate that you need a new turbo or a turbo position sensor (which IS available separately fro Fiat, i am told) or a new EGR solenoid valve but these items could cost the best part of £1500 and I would want a more specialised diagnosis than that. I am told that the Euro5 throttle bodies are not an issue (none replaced locally) so this is not likely to be the problem.

You may also have an otherwise innocuous CAN error that may never actually manifest as a problem. It happens. I had to reset one yesterday that was interfering with the use of Bluetooth. Most CAN errors that are logged are nothing to be concerned about.

 

Get it to a dealer and while you should explain the problem, and explain the results of your EGR unplugging experience; don't give them a pile of graphs and other data. You need to let them do their job their way and allow a couple of hours for this. You should be able to agree a reasonable labour rate if you choose a dealer that also works on heavy commercials like DAF or Iveco. Less so with the car dealers.

 

Nick

[steve101]

Thanks Nick. I do concur. I have now got it booked into an independent fiat specialist next week.

 

With regards to the Ecu is it worth resetting it to see if this makes any difference?

[grahamt63]

Hello Steve,

 

I'm interested in finding out some of this type of data on my van, could I ask what program you used to retrieve this data?

 

-------------

Number of regenerations interrupted by key off: 0

Km travelled with DPF warning lamp 'on': 0

Particulate filter state: 30% - 120%, Normal clogging

Last DPF replacement odometer: 88455.10 km

Odometer from last DPF regeneration: 115.70 km

Average temperature of last 5 regenerations: 673.00 °C

Average distance of last 5 regenerations: 1313 km

Average duration of last 5 regenerations: 505 sec

Total number of regenerations: 122

 

---------------

 

Thanks very much for any help and good luck with your dealer booking next week, I'm impressed with the charted data you've been able to use and your persistence.

 

Cheers,

 

Graham

 

[steve101]

Hi Graham.

 

I have used two programmes. The first being Multiecuscan, I brought a licence for it to be able to use all functions for €50 and brought some associated cables to scan all modules and test many things.

 

The information that you have an interested came from some software called Alfaobd. I have only used the free version to get this info and the cables that I already had from above.

[grahamt63]

steve101 - 2016-05-19 8:52 PM

 

Hi Graham.

 

I have used two programmes. The first being Multiecuscan, I brought a licence for it to be able to use all functions for €50 and brought some associated cables to scan all modules and test many things.

 

The information that you have an interested came from some software called Alfaobd. I have only used the free version to get this info and the cables that I already had from above.

 

That's really great thanks. Very odd that an Alfaobd system works on Fiats but I guess there are all Italian and must use a common interface.

 

I'm assuming the Multiecuscan can monitor all the live data values from the Canbus, I'm trying to be able to read the DPF temperatures, pressures etc ?

 

Cheers,

 

Graham

[steve101]

I'm not sure but I would have thought so. May be worth looking at the site. They also have a forum with lots on there too.

[euroserv]

steve101 - 2016-05-19 12:25 PM

 

Thanks Nick. I do concur. I have now got it booked into an independent fiat specialist next week.

 

With regards to the Ecu is it worth resetting it to see if this makes any difference?

 

 

Steve,

 

Be aware that an independent Fiat Specialist will not have access to the Fiat technical bulletins that i referred to. I don't think there is any substitute for the real deal on this occasion. I don't know what you mean regarding resetting the ECU. All that you can do is to either clear all fault codes or disconnect the battery for half an hour.

 

N

[aandy]

I've been following this thread with a growing sense of unease. When I started looking for a van I was planning to get something around 10 - 15 years old as I am very nervous of current engine technology. Unless everything works by mechanical means I don't understand it, and if I don't understand it I don't trust it. However, it occurred to me that there are tens of thousands of these technological masterpieces driving around happily without any problem (there are, aren't there?) and, having read various posts and articles (including one in MMM saying how reliable the later Ducatos are), I decided I was being silly and bought a three-year old Euro 5 Ducato.

 

Now, however, it seems that without a degree in electronics you have no idea what is going on under the bonnet or, if something does go wrong, whether it really is as complicated and expensive to repair as your friendly local mechanic says it is. Not much I can do about it now, but I'm beginning to think Pelmetman Dave's approach to motorhoming makes a lot of sense.

[Deneb]

grahamt63 - 2016-05-19 9:10 PM

 

That's really great thanks. Very odd that an Alfaobd system works on Fiats but I guess there are all Italian and must use a common interface.

 

 

They're the same parent company, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA). They also own Lancia, Maserati, Jeep and several other brands.

[steve101]

euroserv - 2016-05-20 12:34 PM

 

steve101 - 2016-05-19 12:25 PM

 

Thanks Nick. I do concur. I have now got it booked into an independent fiat specialist next week.

 

With regards to the Ecu is it worth resetting it to see if this makes any difference?

 

 

Steve,

 

Be aware that an independent Fiat Specialist will not have access to the Fiat technical bulletins that i referred to. I don't think there is any substitute for the real deal on this occasion. I don't know what you mean regarding resetting the ECU. All that you can do is to either clear all fault codes or disconnect the battery for half an hour.

 

N

 

Thanks Nick.

 

This garage have come highly recommended to be the fiat go to garage in the area so fingers crossed they will sort it.

[ayrus87]

I’m completely enjoying as of it and that I have you ever bookmarked to ascertain out new stuff you'll post.. Can you also check agen bola

[colin]

aandy - 2016-05-20 4:32 PM

 

I've been following this thread with a growing sense of unease. When I started looking for a van I was planning to get something around 10 - 15 years old as I am very nervous of current engine technology. Unless everything works by mechanical means I don't understand it, and if I don't understand it I don't trust it. However, it occurred to me that there are tens of thousands of these technological masterpieces driving around happily without any problem (there are, aren't there?) and, having read various posts and articles (including one in MMM saying how reliable the later Ducatos are), I decided I was being silly and bought a three-year old Euro 5 Ducato.

 

Now, however, it seems that without a degree in electronics you have no idea what is going on under the bonnet or, if something does go wrong, whether it really is as complicated and expensive to repair as your friendly local mechanic says it is. Not much I can do about it now, but I'm beginning to think Pelmetman Dave's approach to motorhoming makes a lot of sense.

 

When I first started driving the vans and cars I had where about 10 years old, I used to fix them myself,and a good job too as it seemed I would spend most weekends with the bonnet up doing some repair or other, I've lost count of the number of times i've removed a cylinder head to lap in the valves or replace a blown head gasket.

The ignition systems where always playing up, so adjusting points, cleaning plugs and replacing leads was a regular job, and woe betide anyone who didn't keep a check on the water and oil.

What happens to most modern vehicles? Well once in a blue moon the bonnet gets lifted.

Dave makes a good point except he and Horace have been recovered to a garage or home more times than most, even after a major rebuild and being re-engined.

[steve101]

A quick update from my weekend of head scratching.

 

I have carried out a leak off test from the injectors. My results show that number one is leaking off around 4 times that of the other three.

 

So tomorrow it is having a replacement 'Iveco' injector, seeing as they are exactly the same but half the price of Fiat!!

 

I'm hoping this could be me getting closer to the problem.

 

I've also received Intel with regards to the boost solenoid failing on another vehicle with the same symptoms. So I'll keep this in mind if the injector doesn't solve my issue.

[euroserv]

I think the boost solenoid is more likely to be the problem.

 

Excessive leak-off usually leads to problems with starting since the fuel rail needs to build to a pressure of at least 300 Bar during cranking in order for permission be 'granted' by the ECU for a start. Because the injector is not sealing correctly and is leaking back too much fuel the rail will take much longer to reach the desired pressure, if at all if more than one injector is affected. This is a very rare fault on 2.3 Ducato's and just as well because the screws that secure the injector clamp have a tendency to break and the injectors themselves can be very difficult to remove. Whatever you do; make sure that the engine is very warm before attempting to remove a clamping screw! It helps a lot but is no guarantee that it will not break. Although this is not going to get better on it's own, i would try all other avenues before attempting the injector swap because it can end in tears and is not very likely to be resulting in the symptoms that you are seeing.

It's very unfortunate that neither Bosch nor other injector manufacturers bothered to design them in such a way as they could have these back-leak seals replaced in situ.

[aandy]

Colin, you are of course absolutely right. Engines now are far more reliable than they used to be, though it seems that when they do go wrong there is greater potential for it to be catastrophic and very expensive. I, too, have always done my own maintenance and repairs and take comfort in knowing that if anything goes wrong with either of my cars (the newest is 42 years old) I will generally be able to diagnose and fix the problem myself. With anything from about 1990 onwards I have no idea. I know my concerns are largely irrational, and I suppose it's just a fear of the unknown (and me being a bit of a Luddite, of course).

[Archiesgrandad]

Many years ago a small part of my business was looking after a fleet of cars that were provided for the use of District Nurses , Midwives, Health Visitors etc, working for a local health authority. In a bid the find even more ways of spending our money someone devised a scheme whereby these individuals,if they were prepared to make a contribution to the cost, could choose their own car and use it privately when not working. The downside was that they could have anything they liked, as long as it was a Rover Metro.

Once they had filled in all the forms and been accepted in the scheme, they would come to my office and go through the brochures and choose their new car. For most of them it was the only way they would ever have a brand new car of their choice, and it was generally great fun, so why am I telling you this?one day a middle-aged , generously proportioned midwife, who came over in the first wave of Caribbean immigrants, came along accompanied by her best friend. They studied the brochures, and finally she made her decision, she would like the 1300cc Van den Plas in red. The friend hastily thumbed through her brochure, found the page, studied it intensely, and pronounced " you can't have one of those, it has electric windows." " But that's why I want it" she said, "I want electric windows and central locking." The friend was adamant, " You can't have one of those, because if you drove into a river the electrics would fail, and you would be unable to open the window and swim to the surface." We were in the London suburbs, which does not give many opportunities to drive into a river, and they were very large ladies, and to my shame I couldn't help visualising them exiting a submerged Metro Van den Plas through the window, but I think she had identified the reality that the more technology you have, the more potential problems you might find, and the better your engineering skills need to be. Tell me again, why do we continue to buy the Sevel derived vans, when we know that they give so much trouble?

AGD